The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
HD Native really Works!
Old 5th September 2011
  #1
Lives for gear
 
scott petito's Avatar
 

HD Native really Works!

I decided to move my own post to a new thread since I have seen very little written about real world use of a Native system....

So far hd native is smoking my hd3 tdm system...I certainly did not expect that...and one the first projects I threw at it is one one of the biggest mix projects I've ever done....about 100 tracks including full orchestra, 30 to 40 backing vocals etc... tons of plugs vis, the works .. Not a hiccup.. All my tdm plugs showed up as rtas versions with no changing of settings etc...

And my computer is still running at less than 25 percent .. My hd3 was pretty much maxed out at this point just with tdm massenburg eqs. I can now run dozens as rtas..

And I did a last minute vocal overdub with a 64 buffer and no decernable latency and not using low latency mode full cue mixes just like I left them in the tdm version... I could not do that with the TDM system without removing plugins from the mix buss!

I suspect my hd system may be for sale after the cards come back from avid... They don't work in the newest macs! no one mentioned that....

a little background on this purchase
last week in the hurricane my 1st gen mac pro bit the dust.. so I bought a new 8 core macpro .... but my rev E protools cards do not work in the these computers and Avid need to modify the card at a cost of 250 each and a 10 day turnaround.... oh and the $ 79 dollar phone call to tell me that....since I had to finish my project I picked up the native system

PS I'm using it with 2 Lynx aurora 16's for 64i/o and its flawless

So they can keep Heat!


Cheers
Scott
Old 6th September 2011
  #2
Gear Addict
 
Nerine's Avatar
 

Great to know.

My next studio is going to be centred around HD Native, Avid Omni and a good PC.
Will be a major upgrade for me.

Native seems to be gaining fans all the time...
Old 6th September 2011
  #3
Gear Nut
 

I LOVE HD NATIVE!!!!!!! ive been using it for about 3 months now give or take a few weeks its like i have no limits to my mixes i can do anything!
Old 6th September 2011
  #4
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott petito View Post
"they can keep Heat!"
Most people aren't really gonna miss TDM much.

Native working great most of the time here. Do still get some of the occasional PT errors, but I expect those on really any system. Most of my issues come from UAD usage. For those interested in the Omni, I have to admit, the converters are nice. In my opinion they "one up" Apogee.
Old 8th September 2011
  #6
Lives for gear
 
scott petito's Avatar
 

well yes I'm probably lucky that I have no major system issues using the Lynx's

there is a small bug that Lynx is working on involve switching sample rates but nothing that make s the system unstable or unusable....and PT 9.05 fixed some issues I had with my Icon

I tracked a full Band today with plugs on every track.. at least an eq and not a single issue... I even had analog gear inserted.. with delay comp on and no issues at a 64 buffer on an 8 core mac pro... I'll try to report on other sessions as I can and any issues I might encounter but so far so good.... and mixing is a real pleasure... no more plotting out my plugin order to avoid extra voice usage on my TDM system...or rationing Massenburg Eqs.... I actually am Having better performance from my quad UAd as well.. go figure
cheers
SP
Old 8th September 2011
  #7
TML
Lives for gear
 

Scott-
So are you saying our former TDM plugs will work with HD Native and come up as RTAS versions? Thanks,
Tim
Old 8th September 2011
  #8
Dude, how can it smoke your HD3?!?!

You mean your new Mac smokes your dinosaur Mac with TDM cards?

HD TDM HAS MORE POWER BECAUSE IT HAS BOTH TDM AND NATIVE!!!!

I have a project that will not even open on HD Native on a quad Mac Pro. My HD2 quad Opens it and runs it at 90% (using some TDM, of course) - both are 2.66 quad Mac pro's with equal RAM, etc.

My i7 running PT9 through TC Kinnekt 48 opens the same project at 40%.

GET YOUR "FACTS" STRAIGHT!!!!!!

3+1 is more than 3+0

I'm so tired of this idiotic bullish!t.
Old 8th September 2011
  #9
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Hepworth View Post
HD TDM HAS MORE POWER BECAUSE IT HAS BOTH TDM AND NATIVE!!!!
Has not been like that for me. Especially when RTAS is eating up TDM voices quickly. I moved from HD3 to HD Native/Omini setup recently and, for mixing while using RTAS plug-ins, HD Native is the clear winner over HD3 in the "power" area.

There hasn't been a single session from my HD3 that wouldn't open up on HD Native. But a few of my projects done on HD Native weren't so lucky on my colleague's HD3.
Old 8th September 2011
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Hepworth View Post
Dude, how can it smoke your HD3?!?!

You mean your new Mac smokes your dinosaur Mac with TDM cards?

HD TDM HAS MORE POWER BECAUSE IT HAS BOTH TDM AND NATIVE!!!!

I have a project that will not even open on HD Native on a quad Mac Pro. My HD2 quad Opens it and runs it at 90% (using some TDM, of course) - both are 2.66 quad Mac pro's with equal RAM, etc.

My i7 running PT9 through TC Kinnekt 48 opens the same project at 40%.

GET YOUR "FACTS" STRAIGHT!!!!!!

3+1 is more than 3+0

I'm so tired of this idiotic bullish!t.
Why the agressive tone?

He uses an 8 core, not a quadcore, which is a huge difference.
Also, depending on the size of your project and the amount of plugs used, as PopularDemand mentioned, you can get lack-of-voices issues.

In the end it depends on your project AND setup.
I do think it is a great job of Avid that such a large project translates to Native perfectly.
Old 8th September 2011
  #11
Gear Addict
 
matt82aust's Avatar
 

Tdm does not always trump native. Try comparing a maxed out 5.1 session on a hd2 to that of a native rig. Surround mixing engines use alot of dsp before you even use plugins.
Old 8th September 2011
  #12
Lives for gear
 
scott petito's Avatar
 

Yes as long as your tdm plug has an rtas version which these days most do... Then it will open with all settings intact ...

And I beg to differ but due to voice allocation and the way native appears to handle rtas plugins. Native at least in my world is superior or at the lest equal to my HD 3 ...

And I would normally agree about the fact hd gives you the added dsp what I'm saying is in terms of mixing especially I would compare native to say and hd 5 or 6 using my particular computer setup.... So that means 6 hd cards would be closer to 1 native. Is that math simple enough for you? I have not confirmed this but I have done many projects with larger systems and I believe native compares to to sessions I would normal use that many cards for

Would you currently buy an hd 6 at 20k or native at 3k?
Obviously all this depends on your system and a number of other variable.and I'm not saying tdm is useless ...I'm still suspicious about native all tracking situations ... But so far so good..My whole reason to start this thread was to convey information about at least one set up that is working well.. And that really surprised me ... If that's bull**** to you then so be it ....I'm pretty busy making real records
Cheers
SP
Old 8th September 2011
  #13
Lives for gear
 
tobymusic's Avatar
 

Great to hear it's working out good for you. I've been not so happy, on my 2008 8-core I'm getting a much inferior performance compared to running the TDM mixer (and a few TDM plugs) on my HD3. The mixer and automation really slows everything down - not convincing. It might actually be an incompatability between HD Native and the 2008 Mac Pro machines.

T.
Old 8th September 2011
  #14
Lives for gear
 
nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Hepworth View Post
GET YOUR "FACTS" STRAIGHT!!!!!!

3+1 is more than 3+0

I'm so tired of this idiotic bullish!t.
I'm out of the TDM business.. but if you have large car with plenty of room, you simply don't need to pay three times what you paid for that car to get a trailer.
Old 8th September 2011
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt82aust View Post
Tdm does not always trump native. Try comparing a maxed out 5.1 session on a hd2 to that of a native rig. Surround mixing engines use alot of dsp before you even use plugins.
Well, in that case, assuming your TDM plugins have RTAS equivalents, your native rig runs plugins AND the mixer, and your TDM rig just runs the (RTAS) plugins, leaving the mixer to the DSP cards. Consequently, your computer still has power free.

Matt IS correct - not saying all will need it, but assuming the same computer power (which is NOT the case with the OP) a TDM rig always has TDM power IN ADDITION to what the computer can provide, so with ALWAYS be more powerful.

A couple of caveats - if you're running RTAS plugins with no TDM equivalent, particularly on aux channels, you may find yourself running out of voices, to the point where you've used up so much TDM power for the mixer the improvement is small (but there will still be an improvement). Likewise with virtual instruments, the routing may well use up extra voices.

The main difference is that Native is an option for those who don't NEED the extra power or who don't do large scale tracking. It's not going to replace an HD3 rig for those who really need one - but it'd be better than an HD1 in just about every scenario.
Old 8th September 2011
  #16
Lives for gear
 
scott petito's Avatar
 

well as I said... my 90 track tdm mix was on the brink of toppling over on the hd 3... regardless of which computer the same amount of tdm real estate is used up by the mix engine and certain tdm only plugins ..

using rtas with tdm will cut the number of voices available dramatically....my tdm mix was just under maxed out due to auxes with rtas and putting the plugin in the order i think they sound best instead of the way to preserve voices..

so I maxout all my cards and have a large cpu drain on the tdm system...
I run the same mix native and I'm at less than 20% total computing power and more voices than I can use... so you say that is not more powerful ?

open the same file on the the hd native and I have about 90 additional voices still available not that i need them and very little drain on the cpu

that a pretty good definition of power for me..

cheers
Scott
Old 8th September 2011
  #17
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott petito View Post
well as I said... my 90 track tdm mix was on the brink of toppling over on the hd 3... regardless of which computer the same amount of tdm real estate is used up by the mix engine and certain tdm only plugins ..

using rtas with tdm will cut the number of voices available dramatically....my tdm mix was just under maxed out due to auxes with rtas and putting the plugin in the order i think they sound best instead of the way to preserve voices..

so I maxout all my cards and have a large cpu drain on the tdm system...
I run the same mix native and I'm at less than 20% total computing power and more voices than I can use... so you say that is not more powerful ?

open the same file on the the hd native and I have about 90 additional voices still available not that i need them and very little drain on the cpu

that a pretty good definition of power for me..

cheers
Scott
My experience mirrors this.
Old 8th September 2011
  #18
Lives for gear
 
Kingtone's Avatar
 

Im wondering if people are using ineffective plugin orders with their tdm rigs to be getting this type of sluggishness etc.
Mixing rtas and tdm plugins on the same channel can result in some unnecessary voices and resources being used if you do not follow simple guidelines to keep it down.
By keeping the rtas plugins before the tdm in the chain you wont use extra voices.
If you add an rtas plugin after a tdm in a chain, you use an extra tdm voice on the system.
This is something that does not need to be a consideration in HD Native.
Old 8th September 2011
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott petito View Post
well as I said... my 90 track tdm mix was on the brink of toppling over on the hd 3... regardless of which computer the same amount of tdm real estate is used up by the mix engine and certain tdm only plugins ..

using rtas with tdm will cut the number of voices available dramatically....my tdm mix was just under maxed out due to auxes with rtas and putting the plugin in the order i think they sound best instead of the way to preserve voices..

so I maxout all my cards and have a large cpu drain on the tdm system...
I run the same mix native and I'm at less than 20% total computing power and more voices than I can use... so you say that is not more powerful ?

open the same file on the the hd native and I have about 90 additional voices still available not that i need them and very little drain on the cpu

that a pretty good definition of power for me..

cheers
Scott
Well, as I said it depends on what you're doing. Presumably you've had to remix up to a certain point, because with HD Native you no longer have those TDM only plugins you mentioned? You're not really comparing like with like. Obviously I don't know the specs of your old system or the setup of the session, but I'd be prepared to guess with a more powerful computer you'd have been able to free up a bit of processing power at least by switching TDM plugins to RTAS and so on (which you've kind of done in switching to a Native rig).

The limitation with TDM does come with RTAS only plugins (like a lot of the recent Waves offerings, and even the AIR plugins included with PT). If all plugins were available as both RTAS AND TDM, then there wouldn't be a question - TDM would just be more powerful full stop. For most people, it still is. Don't get me wrong - I think HD Native is a great product, and I'd choose it for my own production room given the choice - but as far as raw power goes, a TDM rig will, for the vast majority of people, be more powerful.
Old 8th September 2011
  #20
Old 8th September 2011
  #21
Lives for gear
 
AllBread's Avatar
 

Been using it (with 2xHD IOs) for a few months and it really is the perfect "B" room setup. I'm glad the studios that I do the large band tracking in have TDM rigs, but it's perfect for me at home. Well worth the money I spent on it and I'm glad I went Avid hardware. So nice to have a system that just works!
Old 8th September 2011
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllBread View Post
Been using it (with 2xHD IOs) for a few months and it really is the perfect "B" room setup. I'm glad the studios that I do the large band tracking in have TDM rigs, but it's perfect for me at home. Well worth the money I spent on it and I'm glad I went Avid hardware. So nice to have a system that just works!
THAT is what Willis was talkin' 'bout!
Old 9th September 2011
  #23
Lives for gear
 
scott petito's Avatar
 

Actually all plugins I have are both tdm and rtas except massenburg eqs a quick 135 bucks for the upgrade and the entire session came back in native with no plugin issues back to mixing 100 tracks at 88.2 with no remixing..
And my I/o setup was intact so all the outboard was as it was in tdm as well...

I'm not saying native replaces tdm I once again say that it it closer to an hd5 than an hd 3

I'm not offing my tdm setup just yet.. But the promise of a workable native system has come for me..

Cheers
SP
Old 9th September 2011
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
Why the agressive tone?

He uses an 8 core, not a quadcore, which is a huge difference.
It's because no one ever compares apples to apples.

You've missed my point as well (and illustrated my frustration). The point was on identical systems TDM is more powerful every time.
Old 9th September 2011
  #25
Lives for gear
 
scott petito's Avatar
 

But that's not my point my point is on a decent new mac with a native hd card I have more overall power than I do on a tdm hd3
The point you are missing is on these sessions the mix engine alone is almost using two of the cards that leaves only one for processing then add the crappy voice al location that tdm forces on rtas plugs and you have fewer voices as well .. That my friend would be the same on the exact same computer and I intend to prove it as soon as my tdm cards come back from avid...

Cheers
SP
Old 9th September 2011
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
I'm out of the TDM business.. but if you have large car with plenty of room, you simply don't need to pay three times what you paid for that car to get a trailer.
True, but TDM is a bigger motor.

As to the price, I admit, with the current options I'd not be keen on throwing down for a new TDM card, but a used one - hell yes!

If HD Native had advanced low latency monitoring like what RME has it would be a much more worthwhile piece.

It IS a very good mixing solution, though.
Old 9th September 2011
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott petito View Post
But that's not my point my point is on a decent new mac with a native hd card I have more overall power than I do on a tdm hd3
Nope, you have less. See my original post.

The voices at higher sampling rates may have validity, though.
Old 9th September 2011
  #28
Lives for gear
 
scott petito's Avatar
 

No matter what computer I used on a tdm system hd3. I had 27 voices left.. I have over 90 left on the same mix native ...in addition on the tdm system I got constant dae errors not rtas errors... mix engine errors on a complex mix as I approached the limits of the cards

So thats more power huh?


Also I tracked 22 live instruments today to native with delay compensation and no low latency used full tracking... Not a peep from anyone about any latency... That s a real test for me...
Old 9th September 2011
  #29
Lives for gear
 
lozion's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott petito View Post
Also I tracked 22 live instruments today to native with delay compensation and no low latency used full tracking... Not a peep from anyone about any latency... That s a real test for me...
Amen
Old 9th September 2011
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott petito View Post
No matter what computer I used on a tdm system hd3. I had 27 voices left.. I have over 90 left on the same mix native ...in addition on the tdm system I got constant dae errors not rtas errors... mix engine errors on a complex mix as I approached the limits of the cards
Well, I usually use 140-160 voices for large projects. Being as they both max at 192, there's no difference there, but I have lower CPU on TDM. In your case of using higher sampling rates on large projects I can see Native as a benefit. TDM can switch to Native engine if desired, but you lose all the TDM benefits.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump