The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Audio over IP - AVB, Dante? Mixers (Digital)
Old 31st August 2011
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Audio over IP - AVB, Dante?

So I recently was informed by a knowledgeable source that the current generation of Apple computers have hardware that can at least in theory support the AVB standard over the Ethernet ports. I don't know about software implementation in the OS yet.

Additionally, I happen to be working on developing some hardware now that is a Gigabit AVB solutions that supports 420 X 420 channels at 24 bit 48kHz with a default AVB 2 ms latency (note that that latency is from digital input to output, one way, round trip is 4 ms, yous till have to add converter latency if you care about the analog signals). With proper AVB switches, the 2 ms allows for 7 network hops (AVB switch required), and if you are direct connecting two AVB devices, sub 1ms latencies should be possible. Also support is redundancy so you can have the streams on two networks and allow for fail over, though currently the memory required to make the transitions glitch-less is not present, and probably will not be because the cost can't be justified given the application.

When I say tested, I mean we have set up the hardware and used software to do data validation to ensure that all channels are actually being passed across the network and the data is not changing. A single incorrect sample on any of the 420 X 420 channels is logged.

I don't think it is a secret that Harman Group has been driving development of AVB, and Yamaha will certainly have an AVB card at some point for their consoles, if they do not have one already.

I know there are other solutions, in particular Dante seems to be popular, but with AVB offering the promise of lower cost (that would be long term), it seems like AVB will win in the long run. In fact, a Dante card was planned at first, but a switch was made to pursue AVB first with a Dante card coming much later.

Clearly AVB has advantages over current technology used to move Audio around, particularly if Apple is bundling in the support (so you aren't paying anything extra for one side of the AVB interface, which could allow connections to interfaces to be an affordable solution). Add the high channel counts, low latency, 100m cable runs between Gigabit ports, support for optical Gigabit for longer runs, flexible routing, including supporting broadcast modes, makes AVB seem appealing. And there is at least the possibility of POE based solutions in the future.

So...where do you guys see Audio over IP going from the perspective of the audio world? It seems like AVB is going to be the future in a lot of audio markets, and I would include that in small studios, live sound, broadcast facilities (remember, AVB stands for Audio Video Bridging). One of the big advantages of AVB is that you do not need a dedicated network for the audio, if all the devices in your path support the SRV protocol, it effectively allows you to reserve bandwidth for your streams.
Old 1st September 2011
  #2
Gear Nut
 
to-pse's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dabler View Post
So...where do you guys see Audio over IP going from the perspective of the audio world?
I had the impression that AVB does not use IP as a transport but would
rather be a protocol on the same layer as IP that uses Ethernet-frames
for transport?

So Audio over IP would be a bit misleading in this regard...

Apart from this, I really do think that Audio over Network will be the
future. It is unfortunate that neither Apple nor MS have included
the ability of AVB in their operating systems...

Perhaps one of the manufacturers of Ethernet-chips (Intel, Marvel)
needs to make the first step to create a driver that implements
Core-Audio & WDM/ASIO-drivers for OSX X & Win32/64

Tobias
Old 1st September 2011
  #3
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by to-pse View Post
I had the impression that AVB does not use IP as a transport but would
rather be a protocol on the same layer as IP that uses Ethernet-frames
for transport?

So Audio over IP would be a bit misleading in this regard...
Well, when I say IP, I mean Internet Protocol, "the principal communications protocol used for relaying datagrams (packets) across an internetwork using the Internet Protocol Suite"

AVB builds packets sent across TCP/IP networks. AVB uses the transport layer, but there are hooks in place for the Application layer to use and take advantage of AVB devices, so I am not entirely sure what you are saying here? AVB is just a natural extensions of existing technologies that have been around for years, Cobranet, Ethersound, mLAN, etc. The technical community has always referred to these technologies as Audio over IP.

AVB is very much an extension of IP. It adds extra requirements on top of the IEEE 802.1 standard. AVB really defines how Ethernet devices communicate with one another, i.e. how packets are constructed, how clocks are synchronized, how time stamping is handled, and how bandwidth is reserved, all within the framework of standard TCP/IP protocol. Other than that, the packets are built as standard IEEE 802.1 packets, you can analyze them with standard packet analysis tools.

You have to have an TCP/IP implementation for AVB to work on top of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by to-pse View Post
Apart from this, I really do think that Audio over Network will be the
future. It is unfortunate that neither Apple nor MS have included
the ability of AVB in their operating systems...

Perhaps one of the manufacturers of Ethernet-chips (Intel, Marvel)
needs to make the first step to create a driver that implements
Core-Audio & WDM/ASIO-drivers for OSX X & Win32/64

Tobias
Like I said, there is some reference to AVB in the latest Apple OS release, which was my point, it appears Apple can roll out an update to existing hardware they are selling right now that would allow support for AVB. I think with the very limited number of commercially available AVB devices to test compatibility with, Apple probably wants to wait until there is more of a demand for AVB, and they have enough devices available to test that things are working properly.

I doubt the manufacturers are going to create drivers, because they are in business to sell chips, and they do not have a desire to devote resources to writing drivers they cannot sell. It is going to be up to Apple to add the support AVB.
Old 12th March 2013
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Blinddot's Avatar
 

Sorry for resurrecting this thread, but I had to, I'm so excited about the state of AVB technology right now, it is very mature already and it looks so promising.. I think the whole pro audio industry will end up AVB, stage boxes/mixers, installation sound and recording interfaces will end up being AVB, there is a big open avb alliance promoting it, check the names behind it

AVnu | Our Members

Harman, avid, waves, presonus, meyer sound, echo audio.. etc.

Avid has already AVB option for its Venue system

Avid | VENUE SC48 Remote System

Meyer sound too:

Meyer Sound : D-Mitri

The nice thing is that it is the actual ethernet standard that has changed to overcome the problems it had for audio networking, like timestamping, clock transmission, and AV priority over network data, major chip manufacturers are involved, everything looks good to me and it seem s to be a time proof standard since it is ethernet itself not a proprietary protocol running on top of ethernet.

There is already a driver for OSX (10.7 and later)

https://developer.apple.com/library/...deviced.1.html

You can see it working as a coreaudio driver on this video

avb usb osx aggregation - YouTube

and here you can have a look to the UNOS VISION control software

avb usb osx aggregation - YouTube


Very interesting, no need to code and mantain a driver in order to build an audio interface for mac, it comes with OSX already, I guess that steinberg should do the same for an ASIO AVB driver or even microsoft, good thing is that the driver should work for all manufacturers.

I think is a great opportunity for the converter manufacturers to get into the audio interface business, XMOS for example is opening all the AVB hardware and software, so it is very easy and affordable to develop for AVB right now.

It'd be a good time to develop an open source hardwre audio interface, anyone knows where I could find people that could like the idea?


Old 25th April 2013
  #5
Here for the gear
 

AVB on Macintosh

Interesting post... I happened to have developed the FPGA on the 420x420 system with "glitchy" fail-over you're referencing... makes me curious about whether we know each other.

AVB doesn't, in fact, rely at all on TCP/IP - it is all OSI Layer 2, even the IEEE1722.1 protocol used for discovery, enumeration, connection management, and control. The main reason I wanted to reply to this post was to provide a link to enabling the AVDECC and AVB audio capability in Macintosh OS-X!

https://developer.apple.com/library/...deviced.1.html

- Enjoy!

- E
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump