No problem.

And I agree. In all the studio's I've been too (including my own for the past couple years) it seems like Ivory has always been the "standard."

But up against Imperfect Sample's Steinway it gets it's butt kicked...in my opinion, anyways.


Scott

great sound with lots of attitude and character

Thanks for posting the clips, and your effort on this.

Both samples definitely sound excellent, and it's a matter of taste which one you (or we) choose. For my taste, Steinway is the first choice as a stand alone sample, and use it for solo pianos. Within the mix, that's a different story. Yamaha type of sounds often fits better in rock/pop mix, IMO.

Regarding the mono/phase issue, "flangey" you meant is probably the same as "comb filtered" in my finding, but I didn't want to rush to a conclusion from the demo audio, because it was processed by reverb, which may be another reason of the phase issue. Close micing (like inside the lid) with spaced stereo always suffer from this kind of phase issues, when summed to mono. Fully developed grand piano sound is audible only from distance, so, sampling (micing) grand piano is such a difficult task (I'm just a beginner, but all the experts would agree). I (and probably nobody) can not blame engineers in that regard. Of course, distant micing is possible to capture fully developed stereo sound, but it will also pick up the room acoustic, which is not good to get the best "dry" samples for the use of virtual instruments.

For greater mono compatibilities, I believe samples recorded using M/S method would be better, but I haven't had a chance to explore such possibility. Besides, the cardioid mic usually used in M/S woud not pick up the full LF range of the good grand piano. Maybe wide cardioid mic can be used for M/S, but I'm no sample library manufacture, and I don't know these companies are interested in working hard to get mono compatibility. Okay, I now realized I'm talking very much off topic, so I'll stop here.

just scribbling..

I listened to both, but I'm confused. I believe you said you did one midi take and then ran it on Ivory and Imperfect? So the playing should be identical correct? Just the sound difference between the two?

What I don't understand is they are not even in the same key.

The Imperfect is slightly louder dbRMS but that should not be an issue because it's close.

And as mentioned obviously much more resonance with Imperfect. Can be nice with a piano solo, but usually horrible in a very layered multi-track pop song.

Have you made any attempts to get Ivory to sound like Imperfect by turning stuff back on including the effects and messing with Ivorys stereo/mono? This may be futile, but I'm just wondering.

I do like the sound of Imperfect, and have always felt Ivory is a little "dry" overall. But I have never used Ivorys default settings for anything. Every time I use Ivory I have to change the mono/stereo and usually go into the effects. So now that you have done a "dry" comparison of both, how about trying to get Ivory to sound like Imperfect? Or perhaps post a midi file for anyone else to make an attempt?

Hey Scott!

Thanks for doing that. It was very helpful. Nice playing!!!

My thoughts.....

My #1 issue with sample based instruments as opposed to real instruments is the way they make you to play into the strengths of the sample, and away from the weaknesses. It happens on real instruments too, but far less IMO. For that very reason, if I had those two sounds up, and was playing your piece, I would voice chords differently, apply velocity differently, perhaps even change chords / bass note-octaves due to the way I reacted to each sound. That makes a "perfect" comparison, not quite so easy without having my actual "fingers on the sound". I'm sure you'd agree - the playability is the most important thing. Many libraries sound GREAT for a few notes. BUt try to play something emotional on them and....yuck. Playability first. Sound second. Unfortunately for us, we can only take your enthusiasm as a unless we shell out the coin. Such is life on the internet.

But for me, that conundrum precipitates a problem in comparing the two. Play and voice on one sound, and it will inevitably not transfer as envisioned to another sound. Just part of the game. Played on the steinway, the yamaha comes out thin. Played on the yamaha, and I'd guess mud city on the steinway.

All that said, it's obvious to me that the Yamaha suffers in this test by getting a "straight midi playback". But, enough on that.....on to my next thought.....

For me, a REAL piano must be recorded RIGHT in stereo. Any weird mic stuff is going to come back to haunt as stereo images are collapsed a bit for the mix, or worse, for L/R collapse to mono for placement in a mix. In my productions, tracks still get listened to in mono, but more to the point, I often would rather have a piano in mono in a mix vs. wide stereo panned side to side stereo. Actually, I really do not like that panning L to R perspective and use a modified blumlein approach with fig8 ribbons almost exclusively. (You may have seen my ribbon shootout here....). That gives a nice lush stereo image, but none of the "side to side" stereo silliness that some recordings have (IMO).

In your test, the Steinway becomes too murky for me in Mono. After your thoughts on stereo, I was expecting worse, but IMO it faired pretty well, albeit not great. The yamaha works better in mono though. Even in stereo, the Steinway is too murky in the low mids for my personal taste. Perhaps that's because you have the resonance up. Either way, it would become difficult in a dense orchestral mix, or especially a pop mix. It would work nice in a sparse piano featured mix, but there's a weird almost pumping going on in the low mids that puts me off. mp3 perhaps? Weird, but I suspect the resonance feature more than the mp3, although maybe it's a bit of both. The yamaha stayed solid when collapsed.

The Yamaha, although thin, sounds more natural to me. More like what a real piano sounds like - less decent sustain. The Steinway almost has a "midi pad attached" sound to me. (Hard to put these thoughts into actual words....)

At any rate, there may be something going on, because as greggybud noted, they are not in the same key. Perhaps a sample playback issue?

Anyway, although I could easily use either one, as they are not horrible, I wouldn't give up on what I'm using for either at this point. If you want to send out a SMF, I'd be happy to print the Emotional Piano, Alicia Keys piano and even the PT piano for everyone to hear if I get a chance. I'm swamped so it might take awhile though....

Again, thanks for doing this. You definitely helped me make come to a clearer vision about my piano libraries. I'm going to stick with what I've got until I have too much cash in pocket, or the curiosity gets the better of me. heh heh

Thanks again!

bp

Hey there-

If there in different keys it must have been my old live settings w/ in Ivory (Ivory's on my Receptor). haha so sorry my bad!!! And to make matters worse- I have to boot my laptop in "Safe Mode" (other wise it gets the blue screen- it's fell off it's fair share of hotel room beds) and there is no sound.

I honestly just played and printed (and I wasn't even in the room when the Yamaha was printing- how scientific is that?!?!?!)- I spent all of 5 minutes- sorry I should've spent longer.

Sorry guys!!!!

Scott

Hey Bill-

I agree completely. I was thinking the same thing as I was doing it.

And, the truth is I'm endorsed by YAMAHA and I love YAMAHA and everything I own is YAMAHA so I really probably shouldn't be the one to do this.

Anyways- my bad on the whole thing! haha I really just wanted to say that I really, really LOVED what Matt did w/ Imperfect Samples Steinway! I'm def. no engineer/scientific tester!

Cheers guys,

Scott

EDIT: One thing I need to be clear on is this was a test (a worthless test thanks to me! haha) regarding Ivory and IS- not Yamaha!!!!! Everything I own and use both live and in my studio pertaining to keys/piano is YAMAHA and it was that way BEFORE I was endorsed. I wouldn't have it any other way.-Scott

Hi,
Don't worry, I was working with a Steinway pianist a few weeks ago, and he was showing one of the note buzzing, and how bad some batches (of Steinway grand) are manfactured. Admit bad as bad, good as good, without prejudice, that's the science. Good job and information anyway. Thanks

Thanks man.

I can't believe I did this in two different keys!!!!!! WOW!!!!!

Anyways, I still can't listen back- I have a session loaded and my laptop has no sound but I'll take your guys' word for it.

haha WOW!!!!!!!!!! This should be a sticky on how NOT to do a comparison!


Scott

Everything Bill says is correct. He's a very respectable guy and the two of us just happen to have a difference of opinion on the IS Steinway- such is music.

And I think that's about all that should be taken from this thread in addition to the fact that this was not a Steinway VS YAMAHA C7 test- most def. not!!! Obviously these are two COMPLETELY different pianos. This was supposed to be a test b/w how well Ivory and IS captured their pianos. That's all.

Thanks Bill and everyone for their comments.

Cheers,

Scott

One thing I forgot to mention (sorry to bring things back), but I hear some phasing kind of annoyance at HF in Imperfect Sample demo, maybe around 6 or 8kHz (just my guess), but is it just me? I use STAX ear speaker, and maybe that's why.....if you don't...never mind. Maybe too much coffee to wake me up.

Sorry guys one more thing- God this goes on the one of the "stupidest ideas I've ever had" list (not that I have one of those haha):

The mp3's are copyrighted and owned by Wind-up Records, 2011. (as is everything I do the moment I do it)

I didn't think it would be that big a deal but I'm getting worked left and right for doing this.

Scott

Just to change subjects really quick, does anyone know what kind of piano they have at The Sound Factory in LA?

The reason I ask is because I did a song there w/ H. Benson (Mixed by Mark Endert) and it sounds unbelievable!!!! Exactly the sound I'm always striving to get- at least for some songs.

The recording can be heard as well. It's a song by Thriving Ivory called, "Hey Lady" and is very piano-heavy. Right off the bat (after intro: in V.1) the whole note chords pop right through the speakers & resonate for days. I don't know if this was the great mixing or the piano- probably a combination of both but Damn!!!!

I'd love to know what that piano is.


Thanks,

Scott

As someone else mentioned, I really like the demo song! Imperfect should think about using it. Nice playing!

I like the Imperfect for a stand alone piano piece. But I'm not so sure I would like it in a mix. Of course I don't really know what options for Imperfect are available, and the mono issue has already been brought up.

To my ears the huge difference is the resonance/sustain in Imperfect.

What controllers are available to alter the sound other than multiple mics? You said there are no effects correct?

Hey thanks!

Actually there's a different piece Matt and I are waiting on for approval to post on his site (label & publisher have to sign off- u know the drill) so hopefully that happens.

And yes, there are no reverb, eq or compression FX. what there is is the following:

1. Hollywood Button- I ALWAYS have this turned on as it really brings the samples to life.

2. Sympathetic Resonance Voices & Bar- the settings for the voices are Off, Low, Med and High. The bar goes from zero to max. I had it set at Med voices and the bar at halfway.

3. Mics: this depends on what version you get. I have complete so I have three mic positions: Player, Close, Room: I was using the Player position mic.

4. Then there are velocity and release settings along w a few more I can't recall

5. There are finger FX, Pedal FX and one other I can't recall and the ability to set these at never, rare, sometimes, often, always and you can control the volume of each one of these.

So there are quite a few parameters and huge control of the resonance. Even if it did have eq, comp, reverb, etc I'd turn them off as I like to use my other UAD2 plugs and others. (maybe it would be useful for live but I guess u could use the NI KONTAKT FX).

Cheers!

Scott

Excellent point. In fact, a real piano being recorded for a session etc sounds great using M-S. I don't understand why more records don't use that technique. I kind of understand why a sample library might not be -- they're trying to "wow" you with the panning of low to high from left to right, which is tricky to achieve using M-S

I think the Steinway seems to have a pad behind it due to the pedal settings maybe. The website demos had a lot of mechanism noise, which I noticed are adjustable.

It's probably just the $$$ fooling my ears, but I still feel the Imperial Grand sounds best. The Garritan expensive Steinway one was very good, too, but I don't it's been discontinued.

OT: I bought Alicia awhile back, which is fine for Pop, and easy on resources

Doug - do you own the Imperial? Or commenting on the demos? From what I've heard (demos), I'd agree. I have not had the opportunity to actually try it though, and I've been fooled by demo's more than once. Or twice. Or three times.........when will I learn. heh heh

The Alicia sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. I'm not knocked out by it.

Any experience on M-S-stereo after converting to mp3? I have a feeling it might sound worse than some other stereo techniques on a less than perfectly compressed mp3. Any thoughts on this?

Cheers,
Cris

Sorry I just now saw this. I don't own the Imperial, but I've worked on a session where it was used (because the real piano didn't sound good enough). I thought it was fantastic, especially in the classical idiom.

I only use the 320kps mp3... and when I say M-S, I'm talking just about on a particular instrument, NOT the process that a number of mastering engineers use. In any case, I haven't noticed any issues

I completely agree... The Sampletekk White Grand, Black Grand & Yamaha TBO are more realistic, playable, & have much more character than Ivory 2s' Steinway & Yamaha. The Ivory 1 & 2 samples of all 3 pianos, sound boxy, sterile, plastic to my ears. I don't care at all, for Ivory 2s' Bosendorfer.

Acoustic piano samples are completely subjective as we all know ( I just prefer Sampletekk over Ivory 2 ) ... The ones I've listed above

ImperfectSamples needs some more aggressive playing demos

Just checked some of this companies other stuff out....
HOLY ****.
I'm buyin it!

Incredible. sounds like a piano not a ****ing keyboard!

Great tip, I'm going to check it out ASAP.

@greyskull and synthbuddah-


you guys talking about the imperfect sample's pianos?? If so...yes...they are fantastic.

Opinion Disclamier- haha: I'm still in shock at how bad Ivory 1 and 2 sound compared to IS. To me, Ivory sounds sooo fake and sooo brittle and THIN- no body and definitely no character. It sounds like a built in patch on an old Casio...ok maybe not that bad but to my ears...the sound is significantly worse in Ivory.

One thing I've been doing though is when the song fills in (chorus, bridge, etc) I put the IS piano on a separate track and eq it differently so it bites through the mix. The piano on it's own (or with few other instruments...verses, etc) is very, very full.


Cheers,

Scott

Yeah, I was referring to the miking technique on a particular source too. My concern is that the "perfect mono compatilbility" will be less than perfect since the mp3 conversion makes some compromises when processing the stereo image. It might not be a problem with a good conversion to a high resolution mp3, but god knows what people do to the files nowadays ... Anyway, if it doesn't make the result worse than any other stereo miking, then there's nothing to worry about.

Hi,

I currently have ivory 1.5, tried to upgrade to 2.0 but synthogy said because` i got version 1 as a 'nfr' i couldn't get the upgrade price for 1.5 to verison 2. So eventhough i paid for the 1.5 upgrade from v1..I had to buy version 2 at full price....so i had to re evaluate my pianos and brought the honer from imperfect and its great....i am really tempted to buy the steinway...sound great in the mp3 scott, thanx for that. I really love their pianos.....but i just cant decide...money is a bit tighter these days ....so no more purchases on a whim anymore.....just lots of demoing and no deciding...LOL.
I think the steinway sounds lovely on it own....still would like to hear more demos in a song context...it sounds lovely on a slow piece with lots of sustain notes....i want to know what it sounds like on some boogie.....Ive played boogie before on this type of sound before and sometimes the attack just isn't there for this type of music.. i like to play lots of different styles...
The pianoteq is tempting....more sound options....more add ons etc......but there is something haunting and magical about the imperfect sound.... i just wondering will the steinway work on a variety of genres or is it a niche solo/sparse soundtrack type of piano and would putting money into the pianoteq be a better investment.

if it was ivory vs pianoteq.....pianoteq would win
but impefect vs pianoteq is not so easy to call as they are so different but both work in different contexts..and i have heard the pianoteq on their demos sound very much like imperfect....but i think he was using eventide reverb....i know so many variables with this stuff...... LOL

i suppose the best advice is.....just get the on with it.

LOL

Before you say both that is not an option right now...just one new piano needed for my latest tracks.

Also, i do worry we will all sound the same....with all these sample libraries....but there again no one has sampled my voice!

Hello everyone,

i'm planning to invest in a destop pc, powerful enough to handle Imperfect Samples' Steinway with continuous sustain (gonna be running a midi keyboard and sustain pedal through MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller).

The question is how powerfull a PC has to be?

I'm thinking this: Intel i7-4770 QuadCore (4 x 3,4GHz), 16GB DDRIII PC1600, 2TB HDD, 120GB SSD.

Would it be enough? Or maybe it's too much and can save up some 100 euros by buying a weaker processor?

Guys, I'd really appreciate your oprinios.

Hi bluescreendive,

There have been many questions about specs needed to run imperfect samples lately, and I came across your thread on a google search so hope this helps anyone else who comes across it also. The main thing to ensure you have, with any sample libraries, is a fast internal hard drive. Pretty much any computer nowadays is 'powerful' enough to play HD-streaming samples, especially if you're using an efficient sampler like Kontakt. It all depends how many sample libraries you're using at the same time (or how many samples you're triggering).. so to play imperfect samples pianos alone, would be less taxing on your system than to play with other sample libraries backing up on top.

In an ideal world, you want to have a separate internal drive for samples. It doesn't have to be flash though, even standard (SATA) hard drives should do the trick.