THIS is why plugins are the way forward. - Page 26 - Gearslutz.com
THIS is why plugins are the way forward.
Old 30th July 2011
  #751
Gear maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enlightened Hand View Post
In a well done mix nobody knows the difference between hardware and plug-ins. That's really all that matters.

I like hardware, but I don't like the cost, the size, the heat, the maintenance, the limited amount of instances of use, the lack of portability and the lack of instantly recalled settings.

Since I can get a killer mix with plug-ins I don't see a need for hardware if any of those gripes I listed is ever an issue.
Agree 100% !!
I got rid of ALL my hardware, desk, outboard, etc etc...
It took me a while to work it out (mixing ITB) as I was used to working on analogue for the last 20 years...but now, with all the benefits of software, I don't miss it at all !!
The end result is what matters! Ask the people with iPods do they hear any difference..?
Old 30th July 2011
  #752
Lives for gear
 
DanDaMan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
that's the MOUSE, silly!

the outer wheel moves the cursor left and right, and the inner wheel moves the cursor up and down...


Actually the photo and the 'Rand Corporation' caption is part of a famous hoax.

The original photo is of a mock-up of the control panel of a nuclear submarine, converted to greyscale. Some elements like the printer and the console-style TV set were photoshopped in.
Thanks for explaining what the wheels do. I did wonder
Old 30th July 2011
  #753
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBear View Post
Agree 100% !!
I got rid of ALL my hardware, desk, outboard, etc etc...
It took me a while to work it out (mixing ITB) as I was used to working on analogue for the last 20 years...but now, with all the benefits of software, I don't miss it at all !!
The end result is what matters! Ask the people with iPods do they hear any difference..?
Amen!thank you ITB gang,boy I needed you guys on a few other threads....

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Old 30th July 2011
  #754
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYINGJAY View Post
Amen!thank you ITB gang,boy I needed you guys on a few other threads....
Because those discussions are about winning, not sharing opinions?
Old 30th July 2011
  #755
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
I friggin' LOVE the songs on that record, but I gotta say in all fairness... the sound quality is heinous!


Gregory Scott - ubk
JAGGED LITTLE PILL!
One of my most favorite records,didn't it sell like 17 milly worldwide!

Hey man the chords were great,the melodies great ,her freakin vocals blew me away.I was 24 at the time,me & 16 million 9 hundred 99 thousand 9 hundred and 99 people wasn't checking for tube or tape mixing or mastering,we just cared about alanis with those sexy lips.

Sorry AE your just not my type.I don't care what car you drive or desk you use.LOL




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Old 30th July 2011
  #756
Lives for gear
 
DanDaMan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzle View Post
Two words: Moore's Law

Digital will eat analog, it is inevitable. Not grasping this is your own loss.
I don't think that this is true, at least, not for the time being. Technology such as Endless Analog's CLASP comes to mind, therefore analogue is still alive and kicking. I just think that the lines between analogue and digital are being blurred. Just my 2 cents, shoot me down if I'm wrong heh
Old 30th July 2011
  #757
Lives for gear
 
camus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzle View Post
Period pieces are entertaining.
Period pieces are the future? Oh dear. Chuckle.
Old 30th July 2011
  #758
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camus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBear View Post
Ask the people with iPods do they hear any difference..?
Not with a low bit rate mp3 downloaded for free off the internet, no... heh
Old 30th July 2011
  #759
Quote:
Originally Posted by haryy View Post
I agree that digital's flaw is the current state of ad/da converters.
I'm one of the lucky ones who worked extensively in the only analog part of the industry (except the reverbs i know..) without storage medium artifacts..Live sound. You should look at my face when digital consoles arrived with all their included gizmos, graphics, compressors. I retired in the right time. The addition only of ad/da converters in the chain made a (worse) difference.
Comparing the original AD/DA converters with what's available now is kind of irrelevant. If people can't tell the difference between the original source and the the AD/DA conversion (and with the best conversion, the vast majority can't in blind tests), then surely conversion has reached an acceptable standard right?

Because lets face it, you may not have had storage medium artefacts, but you had tape artefacts. The fact that your ears found it flattering is neither here nor there - there's still artefacts, and modern AD/DA is more true than tape ever was. I can use a CLASP system, record through tape with a true AD/DA, and capture that sound. Your tape will degrade every time you play it. THAT is progress.

Honestly - if you think the current AD/DA is a problem, I urge you to sort out a proper blind test with a top mastering grade AD/DA, play back your favourite vinyl through it in a double blind test and see if you can tell the difference. Again, the fact that you like the sound of tape doesn't mean that there's a problem with AD/DA conversion. It just means you need to find a way to include that tape sound in what you do. It's 2 different issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haryy View Post
Do yourself a favor. Work on a decent analog PA system and switch to whatever digital console you wish..Oh, my.
I personally find most PAs too loud to listen to without earplugs, and I'd never do live sound because my ears couldn't take it! Again...I'd argue that with proper engineering skills (and it may be harder in the live arena due to the temptation to push the levels higher and higher, headroom etc) AD conversion is not an issue. The digital EQs/compressors may be - I'm not passing judgement there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haryy View Post
Someone might say that his ad da system is top class, the best, etc. Well buy a similar da quality for each one of your clients' fans and i might change my mind.
That's such a flawed argument - because everyone listening to records has an audiophile quality turntable? Consumers always have crap equipment, analogue or digital. It's our job to make it as good as possible for that crap equipment. Plus at least a digital copy won't degrade - how bad do most overplayed vinyl records sound?

Not to mention that some aren't that fussed about the sound of vinyl - personally I find the clicks and pops distracting, much as I like other things about it.
Old 30th July 2011
  #760
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mizzle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post

Because lets face it, you may not have had storage medium artefacts, but you had tape artefacts. The fact that your ears found it flattering is neither here nor there - there's still artefacts, and modern AD/DA is more true than tape ever was. I can use a CLASP system, record through tape with a true AD/DA, and capture that sound. Your tape will degrade every time you play it. THAT is progress.

Honestly - if you think the current AD/DA is a problem, I urge you to sort out a proper blind test with a top mastering grade AD/DA, play back your favourite vinyl through it in a double blind test and see if you can tell the difference. Again, the fact that you like the sound of tape doesn't mean that there's a problem with AD/DA conversion. It just means you need to find a way to include that tape sound in what you do. It's 2 different issues.

Bingo. I do believe that many confuse the issue of fidelity with that of character. Because tubes and tapes have a certain pleasing character does not make them superior in terms of fidelity.

The more character the equipment imparts, the less fidelity it has to the source signal. I am not saying that this character is undesirable. Like many distortions, they can be useful for all kinds of expressive purposes, but it should be noted that they are obstacles to fidelity and accuracy (which in terms of progress, are the salient points of any documentary media).

The science behind digital is that it's theoretical limitations for fidelity and accuracy far surpass that of analog. That is what makes it the obvious choice as the primary medium of audio capture in the future. It is the passing of the torch.
Old 30th July 2011
  #761
Gear interested
 

Hardware is great, irreplaceable if you can afford it.

The important thing for me is that I enjoy the process, and if I can get 100 miles down the road via digital versus 110 miles via >> expensive hardware, I'll get 100 miles down the road.

I'm also a photographer, and I don't always have my camera handy. I do have my phone handy, and take loads of pictures with the phone. Do they suck?

Well compared to photos taken with a "real" camera perhaps, but which one did I have access to? We're not all in a situation where we have money, or even real-estate for hardware.

I might not have a car, but a bus ticket will still get me downtown!
Old 30th July 2011
  #762
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Comparing the original AD/DA converters with what's available now is kind of irrelevant. If people can't tell the difference between the original source and the the AD/DA conversion (and with the best conversion, the vast majority can't in blind tests), then surely conversion has reached an acceptable standard right?

Because lets face it, you may not have had storage medium artefacts, but you had tape artefacts. The fact that your ears found it flattering is neither here nor there - there's still artefacts, and modern AD/DA is more true than tape ever was. I can use a CLASP system, record through tape with a true AD/DA, and capture that sound. Your tape will degrade every time you play it. THAT is progress.

Honestly - if you think the current AD/DA is a problem, I urge you to sort out a proper blind test with a top mastering grade AD/DA, play back your favourite vinyl through it in a double blind test and see if you can tell the difference. Again, the fact that you like the sound of tape doesn't mean that there's a problem with AD/DA conversion. It just means you need to find a way to include that tape sound in what you do. It's 2 different issues.



I personally find most PAs too loud to listen to without earplugs, and I'd never do live sound because my ears couldn't take it! Again...I'd argue that with proper engineering skills (and it may be harder in the live arena due to the temptation to push the levels higher and higher, headroom etc) AD conversion is not an issue. The digital EQs/compressors may be - I'm not passing judgement there.



That's such a flawed argument - because everyone listening to records has an audiophile quality turntable? Consumers always have crap equipment, analogue or digital. It's our job to make it as good as possible for that crap equipment. Plus at least a digital copy won't degrade - how bad do most overplayed vinyl records sound?

Not to mention that some aren't that fussed about the sound of vinyl - personally I find the clicks and pops distracting, much as I like other things about it.
I never said anything about tape. I'm talking about the current state of digital sound vs real sound. I recognize digital is the only option we have today but i criticize its ability to capture what is given to it. So , i believe my last sentence is more valid than you propose.
Real live sound in high volume will let you feel the differences more clear than the studio environment. Feel what the bass is doing to your body and ear when you have a full analog chain and feel what it doesn't as soon as you put a digital console in. It's a "static" sound that doesn't "move". The dynamics are flat and unispiring. I can't further explain the differences without sounding like an audiophilliac, so please first experience what i tell you and then you'll probably understand.
But you can kind of test this in your studio. Let the band play and listen through your analog console only, and then do the same listening through your converters.
Old 30th July 2011
  #763
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camus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by haryy View Post
Let the band play and listen through your analog console only, and then do the same listening through your converters.
Most people can't even do that nowadays. Alot of them have never even heard what their audio sounds like before it passes through the electronics in their converters...
Old 30th July 2011
  #764
Quote:
Originally Posted by camus View Post
Most people can't even do that nowadays. Alot of them have never even heard what their audio sounds like before it passes through the electronics in their converters...
I can't blame those who didn't because everyone really needs to monitor post da in order to include his converter "sound" in the overall picture.
But it's an interesting test to see where your converter stands compared to the real sound. Just interpolate it between the console out and the speakers while listening to a live source.
Old 30th July 2011
  #765
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TurboJets's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by camus View Post
Most people can't even do that nowadays. Alot of them have never even heard what their audio sounds like before it passes through the electronics in their converters...
+1 in this.

This is absolutely an issue and a huge factor in some of the fodder-laden arguments that taint these threads sometimes.

What percentage of people positioning themselves against quality analog outboard have ever tracked in a studio sporting stuff like a 24 channel Otari console, or a Daking console, Focusrite Red boxes, 2-in. tape machines, huge live rooms, $100k in room treatment consultation and materials, etc.? There are individual exceptions of course, but the overall majority lack actual experience in a fully outfitted $500k+ studio.

For the most part I do mix ITB but man, If I had a Focusrite Red 3 compressor, do you think for a moment that I'd settle for some stupid plugin compressor? Get real man. If you've ever heard one of those boxes in action the answer is an obvious one. It's a resounding flippin' "no". And, of course there are many more boxes out there for EQ, compression, etc that are just simply inimitable.

There's genius in plugs, it's true. But there's magic in boxes.
Old 30th July 2011
  #766
Gear maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboJets View Post
+1 in this.

For the most part I do mix ITB but man, If I had a Focusrite Red 3 compressor, do you think for a moment that I'd settle for some stupid plugin compressor? Get real man. If you've ever heard one of those boxes in action the answer is an obvious one. It's a resounding flippin' "no". And, of course there are many more boxes out there for EQ, compression, etc that are just simply inimitable.

There's genius in plugs, it's true. But there's magic in boxes.
judging by the way you put this sentence "If I had Red 3 compressor..." one could speculate how much you have actually used it and any other outboard,? One Red 3 with ITB will NOT make much difference...

(This thread can go on forever !!! ...

My logic was:

budgets - much much smaller !
gear / maintenance /electricity / space - expensive !
mixes - still sounding the same !
time - working 10x faster and on different stuff (previously impossible) !
clients - cant tell difference !

stuff that needed lots of patching, routing, etc (major pain in the arse) now takes SECONDS!!! Something that I wanted to try before (combinations of filters / eq's / compressors) ..couldn't be bothered, and even if I did..it took hours!
Old 30th July 2011
  #767
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBear View Post
One Red 3 with ITB will NOT make much difference...
using a hardware compressor as an insert on your mix bus is the beginning of Hybrid Wisdom

it will make a difference - not to mention all the times you can track through it, or reamp tracks with it.
Old 30th July 2011
  #768
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBear View Post
judging by the way you put this sentence "If I had Red 3 compressor..." one could speculate how much you have actually used it and any other outboard,? One Red 3 with ITB will NOT make much difference...
So, so wrong.

An analogue mixbuss chain is my one "must have" for a studio - I can live with ITB for everything else.

Plus...even with only one compressor or EQ, you track the overdubs through it, you've got a "faux console" building up.

I suggest you try it sometime.
Old 30th July 2011
  #769
Quote:
Originally Posted by haryy View Post
I never said anything about tape. I'm talking about the current state of digital sound vs real sound. I recognize digital is the only option we have today but i criticize its ability to capture what is given to it. So , i believe my last sentence is more valid than you propose.
Real live sound in high volume will let you feel the differences more clear than the studio environment. Feel what the bass is doing to your body and ear when you have a full analog chain and feel what it doesn't as soon as you put a digital console in. It's a "static" sound that doesn't "move". The dynamics are flat and unispiring. I can't further explain the differences without sounding like an audiophilliac, so please first experience what i tell you and then you'll probably understand.
But you can kind of test this in your studio. Let the band play and listen through your analog console only, and then do the same listening through your converters.
So, if you're not recording on tape, and you're not recording on digital, what ARE you recording on?

I suggest to YOU - do a blind, preferably double blind test yourself. Go rent a Lavry, a prism or similar, and see if YOU can tell the difference between live and playback. In a blind test - I think you'd struggle. If you've already done this, please report back the exact circumstances and how you tested it. I'd genuinely be interested to know.

I really can't comment on live sound - with the exception of the mighty MC who engineers Muse live, I can't remember a live gig that had sound that was loud enough yet pleasant to listen to without earplugs. Call me a purist, but if it's heading over 100dB, I'm on earplugs.
Old 30th July 2011
  #770
has all the gear he needs
 
Unclenny's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboJets View Post
There's genius in plugs, it's true. But there's magic in boxes.
Damn!

I need to go back and read this thread............

I'll be in the big studio tomorrow for a writing session. We track through the best stuff you can imagine. Seriously. But then we mix with plugs.

I need to go back and read though this thread......
Old 30th July 2011
  #771
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboJets View Post
+1 in this.

This is absolutely an issue and a huge factor in some of the fodder-laden arguments that taint these threads sometimes.

What percentage of people positioning themselves against quality analog outboard have ever tracked in a studio sporting stuff like a 24 channel Otari console, or a Daking console, Focusrite Red boxes, 2-in. tape machines, huge live rooms, $100k in room treatment consultation and materials, etc.? There are individual exceptions of course, but the overall majority lack actual experience in a fully outfitted $500k+ studio.

For the most part I do mix ITB but man, If I had a Focusrite Red 3 compressor, do you think for a moment that I'd settle for some stupid plugin compressor? Get real man. If you've ever heard one of those boxes in action the answer is an obvious one. It's a resounding flippin' "no". And, of course there are many more boxes out there for EQ, compression, etc that are just simply inimitable.

There's genius in plugs, it's true. But there's magic in boxes.
Well, personally I've tracked on SSL (E/G/K), Neve (V3/VR/80-series, 51-series), EMI TG-Series, plus a whole host of lesser consoles like Neotek, DDA, EMT, right down to Mackies and Soundcrafts. Tracked to 2", Radar, or DAW using converters from Avid, Lynx, Prism, Apogee, Lavry, Cranesong, and pretty much all the vintage mics, outboard, etc. I've worked in some of the biggest studios in London, plus a few abroad (ICP in Belgium and a couple in Sydney, most notably). I've also done recordings in bedrooms, garages, chapels, and any number of untreated spaces.

That's the cock-waving out of the way. In all this time, I've genuinely found the conversion to be the least important part of the process. Far more significant is the recording environment, the monitoring, the instruments/performers, the microphones, and to a lesser extent the preamps and other outboard. I've myself done a fair amount of blind and semi-blind testing, enough to convince myself that this is the case. I'm not die-hard on either side of the fence - my ideal tracking studio features a large format board with routing and lots of outboard, my ideal mixroom consists of an accurate monitoring environment, a few pieces of choice outboard, and the rest I can take or leave. If I know I'm mixing ITB, I'll do more processing on the way in. If I've received something to mix that's been less than perfectly tracked, I'll do some OTB processing like running things through preamps to add flavour. I also love things like decapitator, Waves MPX tape, and so on - little touches everywhere help add the same sort of flavour that OTB gives you.

I've listened to live musicians pre and post conversion, and mixes too. To be honest - whilst there's sometimes a difference, sometimes the post-conversion signal is more pleasing, and sometimes there's so little difference I can't reliably tell which is which. Maybe I can't hear the details like some on here can, maybe there's no significant difference, and those claiming conversion is the weak link have never sat down and done the tests. Very few people seem to have, especially those that have a strong opinion.

Interesting that you mention Focusrite Red stuff as an analogue processing benchmark. To me, they personify "bland analogue" - I'd be as happy with a plugin I should think. if you were talking about thermionic Culture, vintage Neve products, or EMI TG series, I'd be in agreement.
Old 31st July 2011
  #772
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TurboJets's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclenny View Post
We track through the best stuff you can imagine. Seriously. But then we mix with plugs.

And that's what helps make mixing ITB so much easier these days, right? If you've got a great analog path in (like you do), and excellent ADAC, you're pretty much there. Mixing ITB is more acceptable now as an engineer because of the vast improvements in affordable, quality ADAC if you're happy with what's in front, bringing the signal in. Mix ITB then sum OTB if you have good gear to do it with. Otherwise, just summing ITB is a wiser route to take IMHO. No sense summing OTB through ART boxes (for ex.) and muddy up a perfectly great mix.
Old 31st July 2011
  #773
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
I friggin' LOVE the songs on that record, but I gotta say in all fairness... the sound quality is heinous!


Gregory Scott - ubk
I suppose that means you don't have to sound -that- good to sell records. And I hate Alanis btw.
Old 31st July 2011
  #774
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TurboJets's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Interesting that you mention Focusrite Red stuff as an analogue processing benchmark. To me, they personify "bland analogue" - I'd be as happy with a plugin I should think. if you were talking about thermionic Culture, vintage Neve products, or EMI TG series, I'd be in agreement.
I can totally understand that kind of description by your comparison. Focusrite Red boxes are like a scalpel compared to an EMI TG series box that is more like a Marine Ka-Bar. One offers no color, only precision function. The other offers color/character and is chosen for that purpose.
Old 31st July 2011
  #775
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Lance Lawson's Avatar
 

Good plugins are indispensable. However certain things like reverb and delay are still better in hardware and best yet in analog hardware. That said if all hardware were to vanish from the planet great recordings could still be made using only plugins. I tend to run hot an cold between pulgins or hardware. However hardware is more fun to operate in spite of itself. But there's nothing like running SONAR and opening the 200+ plugins I've amassed. There's a need and a place for all of it kids!
Old 31st July 2011
  #776
Gear maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
using a hardware compressor as an insert on your mix bus is the beginning of Hybrid Wisdom

it will make a difference - not to mention all the times you can track through it, or reamp tracks with it.
I only ever mix..NEVER record track / anything. In this situation, one Red 3 will not make any difference (to me)
Old 1st August 2011
  #777
has all the gear he needs
 
Unclenny's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboJets View Post
And that's what helps make mixing ITB so much easier these days, right? If you've got a great analog path in (like you do), and excellent ADAC, you're pretty much there.
And that may well be at the heart of this most excellent discussion.

We have discussed this in detail in the studio and have come to the realization that getting my vocals through, say, A Neve 1084 and a CL1b through 192's means that if we need a little more HPF we can even use a lowly Digi3.
Old 1st August 2011
  #778
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robot gigante's Avatar
PLugins could be the way forward maybe if more developers got a little more inventive and creative. And if more attention was paid to some of the issues plaguing the medium.

But not for most of the reasons stated in a plugins vs analog processing debate.
Old 1st August 2011
  #779
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Slug1's Avatar
Hybrid is the way forward. Plugins where it works. Analog where it works. I'm wondering (guessing) if there was a similar discussion/debate 25 years or so ago that DAW (versus tape) was the way forward. Or in the DJ community that Serato (versus a couple of 1200s) was the way forward. But most importantly, its great to see how many MXEs and MEs use combinations or plugins and analog gear. Its been fun watching Pensado's Place and hearing so many of the current and a few 'statesmen' MXE's discussing their techniques and all of them use a hybrid approach.

I spent $2,500 on my dbx160XT and Summit Audio EQP-200B (pultec style) kick drum mix chain, ala Bob Power. I love this chain for kicks and could never really get a plug in chain that matched it sonically, including the pultec plugins and dbx emulations. But I recently demo'd the SPL Transient Designer ($149) and slapped it on a kick and OMG!! I can tell that it will be a coin flip now which chain I use.

So its all about hybrid to me. IMHO
Old 1st August 2011
  #780
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turk sanchez's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzle View Post
Again, this is why controllers are the future. With enough processing power, the resolution is there to eliminate quantization and latency issues. One of the biggest gripes of working ITB is obviously over the mouse.
Yeah, but they would need to make one with every knob on every channel that a real desk has to be the same (no shared buttons).

I spend more time riding EQ and aux sends and input gain than touching the faders anyway.

I am much more inclined to do certain things on a desk and a mix is more like a performance.
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