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Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base : Audio Interfaces
Old 11th January 2018
  #1681
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselb0y View Post
Focusrite will release new Clarett series interface . They will be USB/USB TYPE C. I'm curious to see if the driver will be update to have better latency result than the Clarett thunderbolt range .

Clarett USB | Focusrite
That's really cool, I was hoping that more companies would use USB C. I hope this is only the beginning because many people have USB C but not thunderbolt 3. Now.... Along with that technology, hopefully companies are writing solid drivers with excellent RTL in mind.
Old 11th January 2018
  #1682
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TAFKAT's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallon426 View Post
Just a heads up. I'll be testing the Roland Rubix this week. As well as the Maschine MK3 as an audio interface. I'm not sure if Tafkat is including my results in his study but feel free to if you want.
I cant include your results in my Database , all you are supplying are RTL numbers. That is only 1/2 the equation, the other 1/2 being the actual efficiency at those latencies in comparative performance against a known reference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselb0y View Post
Focusrite will release new Clarett series interface . They will be USB/USB TYPE C. I'm curious to see if the driver will be update to have better latency result than the Clarett thunderbolt range .

Clarett USB | Focusrite
The highest likelihood is that it will based on the USB driver ( if not the identical driver as the Scarlett ) USC-C has no correlation to Thunderbolt at the protocol level , and the Focusrite TB driver is not their best effort.

Old 11th January 2018
  #1683
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselb0y View Post
Focusrite will release new Clarett series interface . They will be USB/USB TYPE C. I'm curious to see if the driver will be update to have better latency result than the Clarett thunderbolt range .

Clarett USB | Focusrite
Yep, but USB-C is just a connector.
Audio interface itself will be apparently USB-2.
(essentially if you connect any normal USB interface via this Belkin USB-C to USB-B Printer Cable, 1.8 m (USB-IF Certified, 480 Mbps, Compatible with MacBook Pro, Chromebook Pixel, More USB-C and Micro-USB Device) - Black: Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories you have the same)

As I've got it, its basically their answer for people, who doesn't have TB equipped computers and would like to use Clarret range devices with better pres and converters over their low-end Scarlett range. USB-C connection with straight bidirectional cable is just small bonus for people with notebooks.

So personally wouldn't bet, it would be better than existing TB Clarett.. I can't find any reason for that.. rather I would expect performance similar to 2nd gen Scarlett.

Michal

EDIT: I've missed, Vin already replied
Old 12th January 2018
  #1684
Gear Nut
 

Great work ! (can only wish was even more units tested)
I hope your work becomes more prominent and influential.
Have you been using same computers for all your tests since beginning?
Are these win 7 64 results? or Mac OS? ( I am under impression those differ).

Let me just humbly say this: It would be easier/ more comfy for my tired brain if the charts had hardware/OS tags.

How can you test such a broad range of connection types, like FW and PCIe on same computer?
Re: non-mac computer hardware:
Do you use riser cards for FW or anything like that? I ask because I'm reluctant to get a FW interface
that would require me to get a PCIe-whatever card like FW. I kinda know the deal with TB3, I would only get a MB with built in TB, (not just 'support' with a header). Those MB are very few so far but they can be had atm....um I can think of literally 2, one z370 and one x299. (I'm building one of those hopefully soon, probably x299) I've been following Dawbench for cpu's for a couple years, but I just discovered the whole 'interface resources efficiency'. It needs more publicity IMO.
But FW seems to open up a lot decent choices even though it is aging. So yeah If you could please say about FW PCIe cards
That would be helpful.
Thanks !

Last edited by el touristo; 12th January 2018 at 09:28 AM..
Old 12th January 2018
  #1685
Here for the gear
 

Clarett no good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselb0y View Post
Focusrite will release new Clarett series interface . They will be USB/USB TYPE C. I'm curious to see if the driver will be update to have better latency result than the Clarett thunderbolt range .

Clarett USB | Focusrite

The highest likelihood is that it will based on the USB driver ( if not the identical driver as the Scarlett ) USC-C has no correlation to Thunderbolt at the protocol level , and the Focusrite TB driver is not their best effort.

What would you recommend to someone who just needs an external audio interface with lowest latency possible for newest macbook pro for live gigs and with minimal inputs? I thought the Clarett would be a no brainer but you're saying that's not the case?
Old 12th January 2018
  #1686
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiosymmetry View Post
What would you recommend to someone who just needs an external audio interface with lowest latency possible for newest macbook pro for live gigs and with minimal inputs? I thought the Clarett would be a no brainer but you're saying that's not the case?
The Thunderbolt Claretts have very good low latency performance under OS X. Latency under Windows is significantly worse. Latency of the USB variant is unknown at this point.
Old 12th January 2018
  #1687
Gear Addict
 

Old 12th January 2018
  #1688
Quote:
Originally Posted by el touristo View Post
Have you been using same computers for all your tests since beginning?
Are these win 7 64 results? or Mac OS? ( I am under impression those differ).
The benchmark system specs are in the first post, hard to miss:
Quote:
Desktop System Detail:
Intel i7 920 Quadcore/ 2.66 GHZ/
Intel X58 / 6 GB DDR3-PC12800.

Notebook System Detail:
Intel i7 620 Dualcore / 2.66 GHZ/
Intel HM55 / 4 GB DDR3-PC10600.

O.S Detail:
Windows 7 x64 Pro
Quote:
Let me just humbly say this: It would be easier/ more comfy for my tired brain if the charts had hardware/OS tags.
For that, I suggest taking Omega3 capsules and boost those DHA values...

Quote:
How can you test such a broad range of connection types, like FW and PCIe on same computer?
Insert PCIe card or connect the FireWire interface to a FireWire controller port. It doesn't require any education AFAIK.
Quote:
Re: non-mac computer hardware:
This is all about Windows test results. Mac is not dicussed in this thread.
Quote:
Do you use riser cards for FW or anything like that? I ask because I'm reluctant to get a FW interface
that would require me to get a PCIe-whatever card like FW.
It is called a controller card, not a riser card. And technically, it makes no difference whether the FW chip is onboard or as a PCI or PCIe card. As long as the FW controller chip is a good one, preferably Texas Instruments.

Quote:
I kinda know the deal with TB3, I would only get a MB with built in TB, (not just 'support' with a header).
That should not matter either, but interestingly enough on some occasions, the PCIe TB duaghterboards provide better results regarding compatibility as some of the onboard TB models.
We have tested only with daughterboards, 100% compatibility and no issues.

Quote:
But FW seems to open up a lot decent choices even though it is aging. So yeah If you could please say about FW PCIe cards
I wouldn't invest in FW interfaces now, I would only use them if I already had them. PCIe is preferred, then TB (provided it works), then USB (regarding latency) then FW (regarding slightly better use of resources as opposed to USB). But the latter depends a lot on the actual driver used.
Old 12th January 2018
  #1689
Gear Nut
 
locojohn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiosymmetry View Post
What would you recommend to someone who just needs an external audio interface with lowest latency possible for newest macbook pro for live gigs and with minimal inputs?
Quantum 2 | PreSonus

Andrejs
Old 12th January 2018
  #1690
anything by RME if you want thunderbolt...the ufx+ has you covered. Best low latency drivers around. check the list.


QUOTE=locojohn;13066531]
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiosymmetry View Post
What would you recommend to someone who just needs an external audio interface with lowest latency possible for newest macbook pro for live gigs and with minimal inputs?
Quantum 2 | PreSonus

Andrejs[/QUOTE]
Old 12th January 2018
  #1691
Gear Nut
 
locojohn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ataylor View Post
anything by RME if you want thunderbolt...the ufx+ has you covered. Best low latency drivers around. check the list.
The list? The only option from RME with Thunderbolt is RME Fireface UFX+, which is a 1U size, costs around 2700€ and has too many inputs compared to what the OP requested.

Andrejs
Old 12th January 2018
  #1692
Gear Nut
 

DAW PLUS: Many thanks, and props to you for the great help!
But you gotta give me a little credit. I like to to have a lot of confidence about what I consider knowledge. I didn't/couldn't read every page, but had seen the configuration early in the thread. But I think I also saw where OP also used mac gear and so that instilled some shred of doubt. Likewise, while I did see the config, having not read every post on every page I had some shred of concern that the config had been upgraded. These combined, is why, in spite of my lack of experience in this particular area of, upon review I still feel the same about my suggestion for a config tag on the charts.
It may be just me, but I feel confident in asserting it is actually just good SOP, and makes it more convenient/easier reference for everyone and tidy. And of course it's easy. edit: also..you see the config lists both a lappy and desktop..should we presume the results are same for both?

My tired brain is a complex issue. Thanks for supplement suggestion. Due to my issues I have a lot of experience with a variety of such things. I subscribe to 'consumerlab' (very low price, not an endorsement, just reply/sharing)..it is really a great place to try to separate myth from effect for such things a little more than the next person. I learned there that they have found the only Omega-3 fish oil that seems to work is the ones with higher ratios of EPA to DHA..I think in at least about 60/40. That is an example of the value of that service.

re: daughter controller cards. (yeah thanks I had already edited myself I
knew 'riser' was wrong term). I'm glad someone replied and listed a FW card that presumably is broadly compatible and reliable. I may try that, idk. But there are a few reasons I personally want to avoid controller cards, be they FW or TB. (also I'd read the PCIe-to-PCI adapters where not reliable at all if you wanted to try an old PCI soundcard). Not because I'm sure they won't work, but because I just don't want to mess around with any real chance of that...too tedious for me. The TB daughter cards for the various MB brands are seemingly somewhat proprietary in the respect that I think you have to use the one branded for that brand board. Some brands also seem to be quite difficult to actually find. And, I've seen scattered reports of issues to make me, again, have some unquantified doubt.

Your report of instead having issues with built-in TB controllers is surprising to me, if you have link or more comments about that I would be grateful.

So thank you for reporting that you have not had any issues with TB daughter cards (on boards with that option).
But, if you can, would you please list the exact MB's/chipset you've had success with? (presuming the card would be the one branded for that MB)
Thanks!

Last edited by el touristo; 12th January 2018 at 09:33 PM..
Old 12th January 2018
  #1693
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by el touristo View Post
Great work ! (can only wish was even more units tested)
I hope your work becomes more prominent and influential.
Have you been using same computers for all your tests since beginning?
Are these win 7 64 results? or Mac OS? ( I am under impression those differ).
I see Leon has already covered most of the bases , but just for direct clarity.

System for PCIe, USB2-3 , FW testing is the same X58-i7 reference system to maintain database integrity and consistency, TI FW onboard on that system. Thunderbolt however through up a challenge where I needed to scale back a more current X99 dev system back to 4 cores and same clock as the X58 , and then amended/scaled results against a reference due to architectural performance differences of the cpu's.

All testing is W7/ W10 ( TB) , I had tested the RME UFX+ TB on Win7 as well, results were close enough to par. I have done no comparative testing on OSX , and in all this time, no Mac focused specialists have bothered to pickup the ball , so not really sure what to say about that past the interest in LLP was not as focused on that side of the DAW fence.

Re Number of units tested , I have tested and posted results for pretty much everything that has come across my bench. Not immediately obvious on the charts, but there have been some that I have tested and could not even manage a result due to driver inefficiency / stability - Prism/Antelope being 2 that come to mind.

Re TB PCIe cards, they are specific to the motherboard/OEM manufacturer due to Intels licensing hooks that require only their own propriety cards work on their own specific boards with the required licensing protection ( I kid you not ). So you cant just plug a PCIe card from another manufacturer into another manufacturers board. Dont get me started on TB licensing.

Also to make it even more interesting, "offical" TB support is only on W10 but TB 2 was never officially supported on W10 , only TB3 , so some manufacturers are not officially supporting TB2 adapters on their TB2 audio interfaces, even tho I have proven they work. Only native TB3 ( more on that below ) using a qualified TB3>TB2 adapter, and no the Apple one is not qualified. Also TB support is only on specific versions on W10 , again even tho I have proven its works perfectly on previous versions.

Do I sound a little cynical on TB and Windows in general, well yeh. native integrated TB capability disappeared on the latest system rollouts ( except a limited number of laptops) , so $100.00 TB PCIe cards only are now available on specific motherboards, but are not officially supported by some manufacturers ( UAD ) , then add the simple fact that you require a $200 TB3>TB2 adapter and then throw in another $75-125 for a cable that do not come supplied with any TB interfaces ( prices are in Australia ) before you can even get rolling, and you will understand that TB isnt exactly setting the scene on fire on Windows.

I Digress.

Old 12th January 2018
  #1694
Gear Nut
 

Thanks!
I want to apologize for not noticing OS tag on every table, lol.

There are exactly 2 current MB's I know of, and I think it's complete, that have native TB....
-Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac
-Gigabyte X299 Designare EX (atx)
I'm not digging into notebooks atm. but I may look at them, especially when the 6-cores come out. Previously I almost got a 4 core with TB from MSI. I dismiss desktop-chip behemoths in general, but Sager has a 8700k one that has TB, but I bet all those desktop-chip laptop are really noisy fans.

Yeah I'm pissed about TB licencing too. I still think maybe TB may pick up on PC. But...Intel announced in May 2107 they were going to make it easier/cheaper for vendors (easy to google). I don't know if those changes are reflected in current products, do you?... of if they are looming and will see them this year. I think TB controller will be integrated into CPU, maybe with cannon lake or something...if THATS true..seems like that would pretty much put TB on most things. (though still might be pricey cable)

When you 'digress' that seems to really just be more useful info !
Thanks about win10 TB but obviously no problems on 7 64. I think general consensus is still avoid 10, and stick with 7 as long as practical. 10 seems like so much work to strip it, or get enterprise special stripped version, and for what gains? I doesn't play nicer or work better with audio HW/SW does it? I know there was some work done by a little team on 10 audio/midi, but I don't think it was about making it play nicer with pro gear, but be better windows audio?

Re: "The results for the DAWbench DSP RXC across the latencies of 032 thru to 256 ( which has been the M.O for the last 5 years ) are added and the total is then % wise gauged against the result for the RME HDSPe AIO baseline card. The same is then calculated for the DAWbench VI CV/ NCV tests for 032-512."...
I'm a little confused because I noticed on a couple of tables, REM UCX FW, for example, that if there was no 32-row data, you used the total anyway? When I carefully compare the table of the RME UCX FW to the Motu 424, I feel like the UCX is better if you ignore the 32 stuff. Doesn't this sorta unfairly skew that downward? Presumably it wouldn't run at 32 or something, so is your thinking that it's a way of 'fairly penalizing' for that?
Old 12th January 2018
  #1695
Gear Nut
 

off topic I guess, sorry. But on the subject of OS...do you do any Dawbench stuff for MAC? I am just vaguely considering trying hackintosh, (making it an alter-ego of this build). Would be my first one, after spending a little time on those sites, yeah, a bit scary as in 'too much hassle'...but I'm 'never say never' on that. Do you use both OS enough to have a comment on 'is it worth switching'?
Old 12th January 2018
  #1696
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by el touristo View Post
off topic I guess, sorry. But on the subject of OS...do you do any Dawbench stuff for MAC? I am just vaguely considering trying hackintosh, (making it an alter-ego of this build). Would be my first one, after spending a little time on those sites, yeah, a bit scary as in 'too much hassle'...but I'm 'never say never' on that. Do you use both OS enough to have a comment on 'is it worth switching'?
It would take someone with a MAC system doing a lot of latency and driver efficiency tests on a lot of interfaces... Tafkat has already done a lot on the Windows side and like he said a few posts above, someone would have to take the relay for MAC testing...

As for the results, I would guess that the ranking of the different interfaces would be similar. About the efficiency of Core Audio, I remember having seen a comparison between Windows and Mac on the Dawbench site and Windows was the winner at the moment the test was conducted (Snow Leopard vs Windows 7).
DAW Bench : DAW Performance Benchmarking

And I say that as a Mac OS user... And don't forget that Snow Leopard was a lean and fast OS compared to the hungry beasts that Sierra or High Sierra are now!

The best would be to build a dual-boot OSX and Windows machine by yourself and run the Dawbench suite on each side with the same interface. Then you would have your definite answer.

I would be able to test my two Roland interfaces (Quad-Capture on an Hackintosh i7 4790 doubled as a Windows 10 machine and Octa-Capture on an early MBP 2011 with Win7 on BootCamp ). But it would be meaningless as I would compare my own interfaces on my own systems... and I don't want to take the time nor I have a particular interest doing it...
Old 13th January 2018
  #1697
Gear Nut
 

brousseau6933 thanks for link ! (I hadn't found that). I was just more trying to accumulate 'reasons' to
try hackintosh. It would be a big deal for me, it's enough for me to get a windows drive going, lol.
Yeah it would make no sense for you to try to compare unless you had all that set up and installed already (then u prob would've done it already I guess)
Old 13th January 2018
  #1698
Gear Maniac
 

Has the SPL Crimson (now in its 3rd incarnation) been tested ever?
Old 13th January 2018
  #1699
Gear Maniac
 

I can confirm that the apple tb2 to tb3 adapter works perfectly fine on the AsRock z270 gaming itx. Paired with a Motu 828x.

I'll let you guys know how it works with a quantum and AsRock z370 itx within two weeks
Old 13th January 2018
  #1700
Gear Maniac
 

Basically I've learned. Until TB3 becomes the norm (in both PC and interface) and or companies really start writing drivers with latency in mind (utilizing USB) Then you're better off buying a PCIE card from RME. If latency and performance is a concern of yours. Hopefully one-day in the near future this whole mess will be sued out. I'm suspecting USB-C will be the not popular connector for sometime.
Old 13th January 2018
  #1701
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by el touristo View Post
I'm a little confused because I noticed on a couple of tables, REM UCX FW, for example, that if there was no 32-row data, you used the total anyway? When I carefully compare the table of the RME UCX FW to the Motu 424, I feel like the UCX is better if you ignore the 32 stuff. Doesn't this sorta unfairly skew that downward? Presumably it wouldn't run at 32 or something, so is your thinking that it's a way of 'fairly penalizing' for that?
I had to set some strict parameters very early on to be able to best give an appraisal of comparative performance, one being that I only used buffer settings of 032/064/12/256/512 , and the rating will be based on the whole range between 032-512.

Any interface that does not manage a 032 buffer will in that regard be penalised in the actual LLP rating to a degree, but if you have a closer look at the results as you have, you will see the greater detail of the respective performance at each latency setting. The actual delivered/measured RTL also acts as a counter balance for those having lower buffer settings available in the control panel , but with a high I/O and RTL.

My experience over the years is the actual listed buffer setting in many cases equates to little more than Window dressing, that is why there is such a large variance of measured/delivered I/O and RTL at respective latencies.

Re the TB landscape, seems a few boards have slipped in with integrated TB2 again, but a much wider tange of compatible boards are available the PCIe cards.

With TB the only interfaces that will work under W7 are the RME and Lynx, no other interface offer W7 capability. I wont get into W7 vs W10 too much here , but many that know me will know my feelings in that regard and if I had the opportunity I'd stay on an updated W7 till all avenues are exhausted. For TB that is very limited and no new TB interfaces will be offering W7 support , instead keeping within the offical support for W10 only.

Old 13th January 2018
  #1702
Gear Nut
 

With TB the only interfaces that will work under W7 are the RME and Lynx, no other interface offer W7 capability.

[/QUOTE]

wow soo...then that's a no bueno for Presonus Quantum ....one more reason to use RME or Lynx..the plot thickens. I guess if there's no driver on the verndor's website for W7 then that tells the whole story, (no unofficial drivers, that would never be a thing for this I guess) I'll have to remember that.

Anyway yeah thanks for explaining the rating. love the tables.
Old 13th January 2018
  #1703
Quote:
Originally Posted by maiv View Post
Hey Tafkat, can you maybe test new RME Digiface USB?
I know it's adat device so results will vary with choice of converters (same as RME Raydat).
Mobility and number of IOs sounds great for the price but i'm little skeptical about 32/32ch thru USB2...on the other hand RME doesn't deliver hyped half-products
Bump.

Please help.

I am trying to decide between PCIe/Thunderbolt/USB options for connectivity for an audio interface upgrade that seems unavoidable, if I wish to experience continued driver support, as high a plugin/track count as my hardware is capable of, with low latency for real time monitoring of hardware keyboards via my DAW(with the benefit of applying VST plugins) or via my audio interface's mixer(near zero latency monitoring).

I am rather late to the party - discovering the existence of this RME Digiface USB. only a few days ago, though it does appear it has been around for several months.

With full appreciation that the effective RTL will also depend on the converter latencies of whatever DA/AD devices are connected to it via ADAT, and recognising that this device is targeted at USB2(yet will obviously also work on USB3), any opinions please of the anticipated latency of the Digiface USB, when compared with RME's other USB2 interfaces (typically the all-in-one interfaces which combine converters/preamp/inputs/outputs/headphone/ADAT/AES-EBU/SPDIF, etc) such as the Babyface Pro, UC, UCX, etc, or any higher end RME USB3 capable interfaces?

I ask here as I have not observed much discussion about the device on the web, or read any reviews - e.g like in popular magazines - which discussed the latency. I also did not find any latency information about this device, on the RME site.

I'm attempting to decide, from informed opinions and any anecdotal accounts, if this device - Digiface USB, could be a viable alternative to an RME HDSPe, providing a similar partitioning of my audio chain, to allow me mix and match and upgrade my audio chain, without having to forklift the entire interface /converters/preamps/headphone jacks, with future upgrades.

My target is to stick with Windows 7 Pro as long as possible, on a desktop which has several USB3/USB2, a few PCIe and 1 PCI slot, as my main system. If needs must I'll upgrade the desktop to Windows 10 Pro, which I use on my current main system - a laptop.

What attracted me to USB was the ease with which I can transfer interfaces to work with a Windows laptop for live performances, or recordings outside my home studio.

Ordinarily I'd just go ahead and buy something like a Babyface Pro as my next interface, but as a gearslutz, with hindsight, what happens when I outgrow the quality/quantity of one aspect of this interface and I pretty much have to junk the whole thing to accommodate any improvements. i.e I'd be repeating the same "mistake" I have been making, which I'd like to avoid. With hindsight, I have a number of perfectly working preamps/headphone amps/converters stuck in all-in-one audio interfaces which I can no longer use with confidence - e.g cos drivers are no longer available or manufacturers left the pro audio audio scene - interfaces from EMU and Echo Audio.
Old 13th January 2018
  #1704
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kodebode View Post
With hindsight, I have a number of perfectly working preamps/headphone amps/converters stuck in all-in-one audio interfaces which I can no longer use with confidence - e.g cos drivers are no longer available or manufacturers left the pro audio audio scene - interfaces from EMU and Echo Audio.
Dunno about about Digiface USB. However, Echo Audio's Windows 7 drivers seem to work just fine under Windows 10. No problems using my PCI Echo Gina24.
Old 13th January 2018
  #1705
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12Bass View Post
Dunno about about Digiface USB. However, Echo Audio's Windows 7 drivers seem to work just fine under Windows 10. No problems using my PCI Echo Gina24.
Thanks, that could really be a game changer for me.
Old 14th January 2018
  #1706
Gear Maniac
 

For those interested, SPL Crimson latency figures:
Attached Thumbnails
Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base :-crimosn-latency.png  
Old 14th January 2018
  #1707
Gear Addict
 

Old 14th January 2018
  #1708
Old 14th January 2018
  #1709
Gear Addict
 

Old 16th January 2018
  #1710
Here for the gear
 

I just got a reply back from Focusrite support, Mr. Hurtgen, that the new Clarett USB line will use different drivers than the Scarlett, but will use the same Focusrite Control routing software.

The new 8Pre USB looks enticing, let's hope the numbers hold up well on them. Cost is a bit more than the Scarlett's though.

I wish RME would release a new "mid-line" unit, an updated USB 3/TB UCX, sub $1,500 USD, would be perfect.
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