The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base
Old 30th September 2020 | Show parent
  #4471
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
Quick heads up that the new DAWbench Radio Show episode is now uploaded
These podcasts are great - 2+ hours flies by.
Old 1st October 2020 | Show parent
  #4472
Are we "cheating" with high sample rates?

So, I'd like to see RTL numbers using milliseconds –not samples– and a sample rate of 48 KHz with a 128 sample buffer. FWIW, I don't track with plugins.

I like using the "import a tune, play it out, loop it back to an adjacent track, mark the i/o and phase it in to the original" method so that I'm using my ears. This screen shot is from a SFX library session. Lots of tracks, no plugins.
Attached Thumbnails
Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base-48khz-128-buffer.jpg  
Old 2nd October 2020 | Show parent
  #4473
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesPDX View Post
So, I'd like to see RTL numbers using milliseconds –not samples– and a sample rate of 48 KHz with a 128 sample buffer. FWIW, I don't track with plugins.

I like using the "import a tune, play it out, loop it back to an adjacent track, mark the i/o and phase it in to the original" method so that I'm using my ears. This screen shot is from a SFX library session. Lots of tracks, no plugins.

You can use RTL utility to get a better idea of your latency in ms.
Old 5th October 2020 | Show parent
  #4474
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
Quick heads up that the new DAWbench Radio Show episode is now uploaded.

DAWbench Radio Show.

Episode 06 : Windows and DAW's : 25 Years in the Making !
Hey, Vin, I always look forward to new episodes of DbRS and this one did not disappoint. Great interview!

I've been dreaming about the Windows DAW as an embedded OS.
Microsoft has an internal project called Windows Core OS (WCOS) which seeks to modularize the fundamental components of Windows to simplify its adoption on new devices or types of devices.

This seems like a great place to start thinking about a version of Windows optimized for the things that matter to our tiny sliver of the market. The argument could be made that the build would be on a much more relaxed release schedule because once our dedicated DAWs are working optimally we're hesitant to change anything. Of course, release schedule notwithstanding, developing and maintaining a DAW-centric build would require convincing the right people at MS that the idea is worthy of the time and resources required.

Pete touched on the existing difficulties involved with getting the Windows team to even understand and recognize our specific needs, much less prioritize them, but it sounds like he's slowly making headway. Maybe he'd be interested in introducing the WinDAWs concept vis-a-vis Windows Core OS?

Just a thought.
Old 5th October 2020
  #4475
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 

@ onceagain and Piyono,

Thank you for the feedback on the podcasts, much appreciated.

Piyono, I have responded to your post at the dedicated DAWbench thread , which is a better space to continue the extended discussion. Here

Old 12th October 2020 | Show parent
  #4476
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Fwiw, with an ever increasing amount of digital devices (such as on guitarists pedalboards, as mixers and as monitoring systems, etc), latency is really becoming an issue in many musician lifes.
Yes, and I have recently discovered a new "added latency" on amp software, and effects software, especially delays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
For whatever it's worth, I highly recommend doing a bunch of latency tests on your own, basically two things are important:
1) When do you actually perceive latency while just listening? Or better, at what value can you tell for sure?
2) When do you actually notice latency while playing?
By and large, with any interface, below 10 ms (two digit) I am all game, but one should keep in mind that IRL, the distance from studio monitors or speaker cabs to your ear, may be as well 3-4 ms which is added on top of the roundtrip latency.

But recently, I've discovered something that I earlier just thought was "bad programming" from the manufacturers, of Amplitube, Guitar Rig, S-gear, and others and it's easily detected with - as you say - drum machine, metronom and other means of tempo nailing. I just didn't care for the delays in guitar rig when I discoverd that "I couldn't play along to them" and no matter how nit picky I got with the setting, they always threw me off. I tried other software, and things that were built in in Garage Band and so on, to posh extensive delays like Blue Cat and so on. The recent months (due to Corona-lockdown induced rabbit holes) I've finally did some IRL tests.

Whenever using a delay only (no reverbs, amp sims and not taxing anything) I hear and detect a latency from the first hit and the first feedback repeat of any delay. Say if a delay is set to 500 ms, and when I hit (or metronome click) a signal, the FIRST repeat comes out at 500 ms + the roundtrip delay, but the rest of the subsequent repeats are - of course - at 500 ms each, and to a tee. So the first signal fed back is more like 509 ms which can threw anyone off playing to a drum track with tempo settings that must play the same. Now, people can't hear the diff of such small things, but believe me, this is irritating.

And yes, it is with the monitoring real time turned off!

Lo and behold, one of my friends used a RME MADI interface with elaborate PCI express, and we took the roundtrip latency down to like 2.3 ms, standalone software and no multitracking, and the performance played much better, so that it was neglible. A 500 ms delay turned out a 502 ms delay at the first repeat, and it was better to follow. I tried this out on posh headphones and there it really showed a difference.

I don't know how much it is because of algorithm programming, but I would think like that delays are the easiest things to pull off these days, because of ..well.. delay utilizes latency anyway so to speak.

Anyone else having these delay idiosyncrasies?
Old 12th October 2020
  #4477
Lives for gear
Anyone tested the new 3d metric halo units? Seems a revolutionary leap. They wrote there own USB protocol - 4 samples latency. Beat that.
Old 12th October 2020 | Show parent
  #4478
Lives for gear
 
daskeladden's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogma View Post
Anyone tested the new 3d metric halo units? Seems a revolutionary leap. They wrote there own USB protocol - 4 samples latency. Beat that.
Does it even have a Windows drivers?
Old 12th October 2020 | Show parent
  #4479
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogma View Post
Anyone tested the new 3d metric halo units? Seems a revolutionary leap. They wrote there own USB protocol - 4 samples latency. Beat that.
?

Beat what, the USB portion of the new 3D system is only a secondary class compliant USB driver, the primary technology is based on a proprietary Ethernet protocol and is OSX only !

Quote:
MHLink - “MHLink” is the proprietary state-of-the-art Metric Halo technology which uses GigabitEthernet as a communications backplane to automatically synchronize and unify multiple 3d boxes and present them to the computer as a single audio device. Unlike AVB and AES-67, MHLink is not anIP-based network protocol, so your computer will not see MHLink boxes as typical network devices.
Quote:
USB - A single USB-C port is provided on all 3d devices as a secondary, cross-platform compatible alternative computer connection port. This port supports the UAC2 class audio driver built into all USB2-compliant devices.

3d USB connections can provide up to 48 channels of I/O at 44.1 and 48kHz, 24 channels at 88.2 and96kHz and 12 channels at 176.4 and 192kHz, user-configurable within the MIOConsole3d software.Most modern macOS, Windows 10, Linux, iOS and Android devices are capable of hosting a 3d USB connection. The current 3d USB interface is limited to single-box operation only.

Please note: Connecting a host computer to a 3d device by both USB and Ethernet is not currently supported. Also note, the 3d USB-C connector will not host or power storage or other USB peripherals.
Ref : Page 21 : Here

Its still in Public BETA, so if anyone has some preliminary I/O and RTL numbers for OSX / MHLink Ethernet to share that will be of interest to some.

Old 12th October 2020 | Show parent
  #4480
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Honch View Post
Yes, and I have recently discovered a new "added latency" on amp software, and effects software, especially delays.



By and large, with any interface, below 10 ms (two digit) I am all game, but one should keep in mind that IRL, the distance from studio monitors or speaker cabs to your ear, may be as well 3-4 ms which is added on top of the roundtrip latency.

But recently, I've discovered something that I earlier just thought was "bad programming" from the manufacturers, of Amplitube, Guitar Rig, S-gear, and others and it's easily detected with - as you say - drum machine, metronom and other means of tempo nailing. I just didn't care for the delays in guitar rig when I discoverd that "I couldn't play along to them" and no matter how nit picky I got with the setting, they always threw me off. I tried other software, and things that were built in in Garage Band and so on, to posh extensive delays like Blue Cat and so on. The recent months (due to Corona-lockdown induced rabbit holes) I've finally did some IRL tests.

Whenever using a delay only (no reverbs, amp sims and not taxing anything) I hear and detect a latency from the first hit and the first feedback repeat of any delay. Say if a delay is set to 500 ms, and when I hit (or metronome click) a signal, the FIRST repeat comes out at 500 ms + the roundtrip delay, but the rest of the subsequent repeats are - of course - at 500 ms each, and to a tee. So the first signal fed back is more like 509 ms which can threw anyone off playing to a drum track with tempo settings that must play the same. Now, people can't hear the diff of such small things, but believe me, this is irritating.

And yes, it is with the monitoring real time turned off!

Lo and behold, one of my friends used a RME MADI interface with elaborate PCI express, and we took the roundtrip latency down to like 2.3 ms, standalone software and no multitracking, and the performance played much better, so that it was neglible. A 500 ms delay turned out a 502 ms delay at the first repeat, and it was better to follow. I tried this out on posh headphones and there it really showed a difference.

I don't know how much it is because of algorithm programming, but I would think like that delays are the easiest things to pull off these days, because of ..well.. delay utilizes latency anyway so to speak.

Anyone else having these delay idiosyncrasies?
You seem quite confused as to who's responsible for what. Plugin manufacturers aren't responsible for the input and output latencies. You said it yourself: when you ask 500ms of delay to a plugin, the plugin delivers a 500ms delay, there's nothing broken here, this is good programming; but you'll have to add to that all the overhead from your guitar stroke to the ADC to the USB/PCIe protocol to the driver to the DAW to the plugin + the overhead of the driver again and that of USB/PCIe protocol and that of the DAC to finally be put out on a speaker or headphone. Plugins have nothing to do with that overhead.

Last edited by soupiraille; 12th October 2020 at 11:15 PM.. Reason: spelling
Old 25th October 2020 | Show parent
  #4481
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
@ onceagain and Piyono,

Thank you for the feedback on the podcasts, much appreciated.

Piyono, I have responded to your post at the dedicated DAWbench thread , which is a better space to continue the extended discussion. Here

Amazing, thanks! I'll jump in there.
Old 25th October 2020 | Show parent
  #4482
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
Stocks haven't landed in Oz as yet unfortunately, but I have a close friend and colleague in the UK who has beat me to the punch with getting in front of one.

I have asked for some I/O and RTL details to get an idea of what the new converters have delivered in that area.

I'll knock out the comparative benchmark results when I get one.

Stay Tuned.

Hi TAFKAT!

First - Thanks for all your efforts and hard work! I've been following your benchmark reports for a long time!

Any chance you got some news regarding the Aio Pro??
Old 25th October 2020 | Show parent
  #4483
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5150 View Post
Hi TAFKAT!

First - Thanks for all your efforts and hard work! I've been following your benchmark reports for a long time!

Any chance you got some news regarding the Aio Pro??
Hey,

The HDSPe AIO Pro supplies have been delayed reaching Oz unfortunately, I'll have one on the bench as soon as one arrives and get some numbers up ASAP.

Old 26th October 2020 | Show parent
  #4484
Gear Maniac
 

Well, I can see the graph on my iPad (first page of this thread) but the detailed numbers aren’t showing???

Was willing to compare the numbers of the first iteration Quantum vs my newly bought 2626...

Thanks,

Patrice
Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #4485
Gear Maniac
 

I know that @ wooderson already did test the Quantum 2626 on September 21st but here are similar results (Hackintosh Gigabyte Z390, Mojave 10.14.6).

Even at 128 samples, it's useable...

Didn't tested under Windows but I found a little bug: if 2626 is power cycled, it reverts back to 48 kHz whatever was entered in UC panel. Behave correctly on MacOS...
Attached Thumbnails
Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base-capture-d-ecran-le-2020-10-26-20.15.33.png  

Last edited by brousseau6933; 27th October 2020 at 02:18 AM..
Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #4486
Sample rate yanked-back...

I don't think that's a bug. The device is changing its sample rate back to whatever the prevailing Windows app or control panel setting defaults to.
If that makes sense. (i.e., if you were working with digital video, 48 KHz would be likely. If you were playing iTunes or a CD, the sample rate should change to 44.1 KHz. Otherwise, it'll sound off, pitch-wise, or in the case of MacOS, it'll do a realtime sample rate conversion. See if you can set everything to 96 KHz/24 bits and a buffer of 128 and see how that plays, including RTL.
Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #4487
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesPDX View Post
I don't think that's a bug. The device is changing its sample rate back to whatever the prevailing Windows app or control panel setting defaults to.
If that makes sense. (i.e., if you were working with digital video, 48 KHz would be likely. If you were playing iTunes or a CD, the sample rate should change to 44.1 KHz. Otherwise, it'll sound off, pitch-wise, or in the case of MacOS, it'll do a realtime sample rate conversion. See if you can set everything to 96 KHz/24 bits and a buffer of 128 and see how that plays, including RTL.
So, to resume, Windows sound system would be 48kHz? Will try the [email protected] in Windows and MacOS though I always work at 44.1.

As a sidenote, I tried StudioOne Artist included with the AI: quite interesting and user friendly but it adds some 64 safety buffer internally in the DAW (kind of some DSP added, I guess for the S5 mixer and al...).
Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #4488
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by brousseau6933 View Post
Well, I can see the graph on my iPad (first page of this thread) but the detailed numbers aren’t showing???

Was willing to compare the numbers of the first iteration Quantum vs my newly bought 2626...

Thanks,

Patrice
Looks like the forum back end keeps blocking the display of the detailed chart due to its size.

You can view it : Here

I have updated the post on the first page as well with the direct link.

I'll message the admins and see if I can get a concession/amendment to display the full chart again on the thread.

I'll be moving to top 20 listings in future , which will fix the display of at least that set of charts , full listings will always be available as well.


Last edited by TAFKAT; 27th October 2020 at 10:50 PM..
Old 27th October 2020 | Show parent
  #4489
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
Looks like the forum back end keeps blocking the display of the detailed chart due to its size.

You can view it : Here

I have updated the post on the first page as well with the direct link.

I'll message the admins and see if I can get a concession/amendment to display the full chart again on the thread.

I'll be moving to top 20 listings in future , which will fix the display of at least that set of charts , full listings will always be available as well.

Thanks, much appreciated!

Patrice
Old 29th October 2020 | Show parent
  #4490
Quote:
Originally Posted by brousseau6933 View Post
So, to resume, Windows sound system would be 48kHz? Will try the [email protected] in Windows and MacOS though I always work at 44.1.

...
I keep my ASIO bitrate and depth identical to the one used by regular Windows audio. Most (but not all) audio devices have an audible reset or cycle when you switch back and forth between them. In my past experience, this can cause glitches if you have Windows audio play while the ASIO device is in use.

Windows tends to default to 48k (not 44.1 these days) but whatever you decide on will be fine, as long as you keep them in sync. I run at 96/24 because that was the most stable for me.

Pete
Old 29th October 2020 | Show parent
  #4491
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
I keep my ASIO bitrate and depth identical to the one used by regular Windows audio. Most (but not all) audio devices have an audible reset or cycle when you switch back and forth between them. In my past experience, this can cause glitches if you have Windows audio play while the ASIO device is in use.

Windows tends to default to 48k (not 44.1 these days) but whatever you decide on will be fine, as long as you keep them in sync. I run at 96/24 because that was the most stable for me.

Pete
Confirmed by Presonus support that it’s normal. 2626 adjusts its sample rate depending on the applications settings. Not a big deal though as I mainly work on (cough! cough!) the Hackintosh side of the computer...
Old 30th October 2020 | Show parent
  #4492
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesPDX View Post
I don't think that's a bug. The device is changing its sample rate back to whatever the prevailing Windows app or control panel setting defaults to.
If that makes sense. (i.e., if you were working with digital video, 48 KHz would be likely. If you were playing iTunes or a CD, the sample rate should change to 44.1 KHz. Otherwise, it'll sound off, pitch-wise, or in the case of MacOS, it'll do a realtime sample rate conversion. See if you can set everything to 96 KHz/24 bits and a buffer of 128 and see how that plays, including RTL.
I don't think that's what you asked but anyway, results in Windows first and then, MacOS Mojave.

They are exactly the same!
Attached Thumbnails
Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base-capture.png   Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base-capture-d-ecran-le-2020-10-29-19.55.31.png  
Old 30th October 2020
  #4493
Gear Head
 

Please suggest my requirement is 4 in 4 out card for composing Orchestral music with Heavy Kontakt Libraries with good RTL..i was looking for Steinberg UR44C or Focusrite 4i4 3rd gen..
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #4494
Lives for gear
 

What would be the setup with Hammerfall PCIe (or any modern rme pcie card) with my current needs:

- a few analog inputs (4 is enough)
- monitor out stereo + 2 headphone outs

?

Thanks,

k

Last edited by soulata; 3 weeks ago at 01:52 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4495
Lives for gear
 

Lynx Studio AES-16e PCI Express would probably be a great step up from Scarlett 18i20, I would need that cable + headphone amp as well then.
4in and 4out is fine though. 2 outs for monitors and two for headphone amp.

This suddenly becomes quite a pricey adventure...

k
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #4496
Lives for gear
 
telecode's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by wooderson View Post
Apollo Twin X Quad TB3 - I think I did this right. RTL Utility, disconnected monitors but left main outs active, then line out 3 to line in 2 with a 8" Mogami patch cable

2019 i9 iMac, 72GB RAM

Sounds like UAD support is telling me that 44.1/128 is the best I can do monitoring through a DAW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by citrusonic View Post
UA should legitimately be embarrassed at their RTL numbers considering they have a whole Thunderbolt lane to work with. BLA modded Ensemble Thunderbolt is in the mail and set to touch down here next week. Apollo x8 on Craigslist as of last night. even at higher sample rates during mixing i think the bad drivers bottleneck my system.
Sorry, are you stating that for the price point the Apollo numbers are really bad?
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #4497
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by telecode View Post
Sorry, are you stating that for the price point the Apollo numbers are really bad?
Sorry to invade here but I think the point of UA is having good DSP onboard so not needing a so low RTL. In comparison, the Presonus Quantum 2626 I bought: no DSP at all, even no direct monitoring. It absolutely needs a DAW of some sort for being able to monitor the inputs.

As the RTL at 64 (and even at 128) is manageable with the 2626, I’m happy by the path they choose.

Two school of thoughts.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #4498
Quote:
Originally Posted by brousseau6933 View Post
Sorry to invade here but I think the point of UA is having good DSP onboard so not needing a so low RTL. In comparison, the Presonus Quantum 2626 I bought: no DSP at all, even no direct monitoring. It absolutely needs a DAW of some sort for being able to monitor the inputs.

As the RTL at 64 (and even at 128) is manageable with the 2626, I’m happy by the path they choose.

Two school of thoughts.
Exactly. I do hybrid recording and mixing, currently use Apollo's and really like them. For a while I was searching for fastest RTL until I realized, it doesn't really matter. I hear 0 latency while tracking. During mixing, my DAW ( studio one ) takes care of aligning outboard for mixing, again, I hear no latency...
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #4499
Lives for gear
 
telecode's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by brousseau6933 View Post
Sorry to invade here but I think the point of UA is having good DSP onboard so not needing a so low RTL. In comparison, the Presonus Quantum 2626 I bought: no DSP at all, even no direct monitoring. It absolutely needs a DAW of some sort for being able to monitor the inputs.

As the RTL at 64 (and even at 128) is manageable with the 2626, I’m happy by the path they choose.

Two school of thoughts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by szyam View Post
Exactly. I do hybrid recording and mixing, currently use Apollo's and really like them. For a while I was searching for fastest RTL until I realized, it doesn't really matter. I hear 0 latency while tracking. During mixing, my DAW ( studio one ) takes care of aligning outboard for mixing, again, I hear no latency...
Does this mean that with a UA interface, (the onboard DSP) less processing will be passed on to the DAW and OS during tracking --- i.e. more resources for VST and applications?
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #4500
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by telecode View Post
Does this mean that with a UA interface, (the onboard DSP) less processing will be passed on to the DAW and OS during tracking --- i.e. more resources for VST and applications?
I think the goal is tracking with the onboard DSP (with the internal effects) so you use less CPU power.

If you track with DAW Vst’s instead, sure it’ll need more processing power and, as I understand, the RTL won’t be optimal... Correct me someone if I’m wrong.

Patrice
📝 Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 2125 views: 357179
Avatar for didier.brest
didier.brest 3 weeks ago
replies: 61 views: 9870
Avatar for Transistor
Transistor 21st February 2015
replies: 486 views: 127230
Avatar for blackcom
blackcom 14th September 2020
replies: 119 views: 26304
Avatar for LarsErik
LarsErik 2nd February 2020
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
🖨️ Show Printable Version
✉️ Email this Page
🔍 Search thread
🎙️ View mentioned gear
Forum Jump
Forum Jump