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Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base
Old 29th June 2019
  #3271
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Gomjab's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallon426 View Post
I've tested a few motus and I wasn't impressed. Search through my posts in this thread and you'll find em.
Thanks for the reply.

I am still interested in someone who has one of MOTU’s newer TB interfaces like the 828es or 8pre-es posting round trip latency numbers. MOTU claims 1.6ms (@96) and I would like to see that confirmed or denied in a real world test.

I currently have a Quantum but really want to replace it with something that has mixing capabilities in the interface if the latency is in the same ballpark.
Old 29th June 2019
  #3272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomjab View Post
Thanks for the reply.

I am still interested in someone who has one of MOTU’s newer TB interfaces like the 828es or 8pre-es posting round trip latency numbers. MOTU claims 1.6ms (@96) and I would like to see that confirmed or denied in a real world test.

I currently have a Quantum but really want to replace it with something that has mixing capabilities in the interface if the latency is in the same ballpark.

Why not go RME or UAD?
Old 30th June 2019
  #3273
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Gomjab's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallon426 View Post
Why not go RME or UAD?
They don’t meet my requirements. RME doesn’t appear to have a TB interface. UAD would be cost prohibitive for the number of inputs I will need.

I fear this is going off topic. I’ll keep an eye on the thread for any future numbers on latency.

Thanks for your response. I did look at all your past posts in the thread and it is obvious you aren’t fond of MOTU and I’m fine with that. I appreciate hearing comments but right now I’m collecting data and hoped to find some latency numbers.

Cheers
Old 30th June 2019
  #3274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomjab View Post
RME doesn’t appear to have a TB interface.
They certainly do. It's the Fireface UFX+. It has TB and USB 3.

https://www.rme-audio.de/en/products...e_ufx-plus.php
Old 30th June 2019
  #3275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alndln View Post
They certainly do. It's the Fireface UFX+. It has TB and USB 3.

https://www.rme-audio.de/en/products...e_ufx-plus.php
Very nice but way out of my price range.

Thanks for the link. When I glanced at their site before I didn’t see a category for thunderbolt.

They make good stuff. I have their ADI-2 DAC which I use to drive my headphones.

I need a lot of line level ins. The Quantum 4848 would be ideal if it included even crude built in mixing and at least some trim ability to work with a mix of levels. I’m trying to avoid a bunch of DI boxes.

Last edited by Gomjab; 30th June 2019 at 08:33 AM.. Reason: Typo
Old 30th June 2019
  #3276
Gear Head
 

Here are the numbers for the 828ES at 44.1:

Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base

So the 1.6ms RTL is achieved by running the device at 96kHz, 16/16 (buffersize 16 samples with a 16 sample safety buffer).

Whether your system can handle such low buffersizes without dropouts? Only you can tell.
Old 30th June 2019
  #3277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumfix View Post
Here are the numbers for the 828ES at 44.1:

Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base

So the 1.6ms RTL is achieved by running the device at 96kHz, 16/16 (buffersize 16 samples with a 16 sample safety buffer).

Whether your system can handle such low buffersizes without dropouts? Only you can tell.
Awesome! Thanks for the info.

I have an iMac Pro. I don’t need 1.6. That was the only number given in MOTU marketing info. As long as it is reasonable (for me) at a buffer size of 32 and 64 I’m happy.
Old 30th June 2019
  #3278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomjab View Post
They don’t meet my requirements. RME doesn’t appear to have a TB interface. UAD would be cost prohibitive for the number of inputs I will need.

I fear this is going off topic. I’ll keep an eye on the thread for any future numbers on latency.

Thanks for your response. I did look at all your past posts in the thread and it is obvious you aren’t fond of MOTU and I’m fine with that. I appreciate hearing comments but right now I’m collecting data and hoped to find some latency numbers.

Cheers

I think if you gave some folks a budget, a preferred connection type IE thunderbolt or USB, how many inputs you need and what it is that you are looking to do, then we could help steer you in a good direction.
The quantum is an incredible interface, I do now know why you would need other mixing capabilities, perhaps you can explain exactly what it is you are trying to do... You should be able to setup a template in your DAW and run everything the way you need. Whatever your DAW of choice is, just make sure that the DAW has all the features you need. For example I do not need Cubase Pro, so I use Artist.
Old 30th June 2019
  #3279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomjab View Post

I currently have a Quantum but really want to replace it with something that has mixing capabilities in the interface if the latency is in the same ballpark.
I'm not sure what you mean by mixing capabilities. DSP plugins and standalone function?
Old 30th June 2019
  #3280
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomjab View Post
Awesome! Thanks for the info.

I have an iMac Pro. I don’t need 1.6. That was the only number given in MOTU marketing info. As long as it is reasonable (for me) at a buffer size of 32 and 64 I’m happy.

I have posted Motu 1248 info. I also have 828 pre es. Same numbers here. The AVB have been solid. I will try to post some new numbers using avb this week or the next
Old 30th June 2019
  #3281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallon426 View Post
I think if you gave some folks a budget, a preferred connection type IE thunderbolt or USB, how many inputs you need and what it is that you are looking to do, then we could help steer you in a good direction.
The quantum is an incredible interface, I do now know why you would need other mixing capabilities, perhaps you can explain exactly what it is you are trying to do... You should be able to setup a template in your DAW and run everything the way you need. Whatever your DAW of choice is, just make sure that the DAW has all the features you need. For example I do not need Cubase Pro, so I use Artist.
I didn’t think this was the right thread for such broader discussions. Which is why I was asking specifically for latency data. I’m really not looking for buying advice in this thread, just RTL numbers.

But because you asked — this is what I’m looking for.
  • I need an interface that can support an Ethernet connection to extend to additional hardware that is located in another room. (Ethernet will NOT be used to I/F with computer)
  • 32 line level inputs to start (can be multiple boxes but see mixer note)
  • Be able to act as a routing matrix between inputs and outputs from hardware in separate rooms on separate interfaces
  • Work independent of a DAW at times as a mixer/routing matrix
  • Need ability to work with -10 and +4 line levels. Ideally provide some trim adjustment
  • Thunderbolt interface to computer
  • Under $2,000 USD for initial 32 input setup but must support future expansion via Ethernet
  • Work with Logic and Cubase
  • Have decent latency for routing audio between internal VST/AU VI/effects and external hardware
  • Support DC coupled outputs to drive Eurorack.

I asked about the MOTU 828es RTL numbers here because an 828es and 24ai seem to meet the above requirements.
Old 30th June 2019
  #3282
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throbert's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomjab View Post
I didn’t think this was the right thread for such broader discussions. Which is why I was asking specifically for latency data. I’m really not looking for buying advice in this thread, just RTL numbers.

But because you asked — this is what I’m looking for.
  • I need an interface that can support an Ethernet connection to extend to additional hardware that is located in another room. (Ethernet will NOT be used to I/F with computer)
  • 32 line level inputs to start (can be multiple boxes but see mixer note)
  • Be able to act as a routing matrix between inputs and outputs from hardware in separate rooms on separate interfaces
  • Work independent of a DAW at times as a mixer/routing matrix
  • Need ability to work with -10 and +4 line levels. Ideally provide some trim adjustment
  • Thunderbolt interface to computer
  • Under $2,000 USD for initial 32 input setup but must support future expansion via Ethernet
  • Work with Logic and Cubase
  • Have decent latency for routing audio between internal VST/AU VI/effects and external hardware
  • Support DC coupled outputs to drive Eurorack.

I asked about the MOTU 828es RTL numbers here because an 828es and 24ai seem to meet the above requirements.
Seems everybody using AVB has their own protocol that won't work with others.
How do you plan on dealing with this or are you going to use all MOTU for your ip audio?
Old 30th June 2019
  #3283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by throbert View Post
Seems everybody using AVB has their own protocol that won't work with others.
How do you plan on dealing with this or are you going to use all MOTU for your ip audio?
If I go this route I’ll stick with MOTU to begin with. I’ve seen the same thing with other open specifications in other domains. Usually the vendors will converge to compatibility if it catches on.
Old 30th June 2019
  #3284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomjab View Post
If I go this route I’ll stick with MOTU to begin with. I’ve seen the same thing with other open specifications in other domains. Usually the vendors will converge to compatibility if it catches on.
I suggested to MOTU that they need a simple yet elegant device
to work with, be it to plug in their mixers output or bus out, or to
plug in just a mic and instrument.
MyMix is a very good example of a Personal monitor mixer and
it's the only one that has it's own inputs, not requiring a separate
piece of gear to hook into.
Our needs obviously differ quite a bit, yours being studio and mine
being more of a group effort, but like you I don't want ip audio to
interface my computer which would lead to latency issues. For you
TB and for me PCIe.
Attached Thumbnails
Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base-mymix-pr-image.jpg  
Old 1st July 2019
  #3285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daskeladden View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by mixing capabilities. DSP plugins and standalone function?
I think he means that the Quantum doesn't come with a Mixer Applet. At least that's what I heard. .
Old 1st July 2019
  #3286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alndln View Post
I think he means that the Quantum doesn't come with a Mixer Applet. At least that's what I heard. .
Yes I want something that can be used as a router/mixer without firing up a DAW.

I have the data on the 828es latency I was looking for.

Thanks to the forum members that followed up.

Old 1st July 2019
  #3287
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That's what I like about the newer MOTU interfaces, they have onboard mixing,
routing and DSP, so you don't need a computer to process audio if you only
want to run the AVB. Still most of them have TB and USB3. I would use an 8D
in my set up for a monitor network though:
Old 1st July 2019
  #3288
Gear Maniac
 
Dewdman42's Avatar
 

I don't know if this is the right place to post this, but I just wanted to report my latency results in case its relevant for the DB or interesting to anybody.

Latency was measured via RTL loopback test on a 5,1 MacPro at 48k

Audio Hardware
Lynx AES16e-50 + X32 rack Mixer (connected via AES50)

Results
Buffer=32 RTL=2.4 ms
Buffer=64 RTL=3.8 ms
Buffer=128 RTL=6.4 ms
Buffer=256 RTL=11.8 ms

Notes
System is very stable even at lower buffer settings. I was not able to test a 16 sample buffer because it was not available for me and I wouldn't expect it to be stable either. 96k is also not available in the x32 which could have cut latency in half for testing purposes. Latency through the AES16e-50 is very similar to the AES16e as it has been measured and reported on this forum thread, together with Lynx converters. The X32 as an alternative converter over AES50 connection adds half a ms or so to the overall round trip latency above and beyond the AES16e-50 to arrive at the above measured RTL.

This configuration is affordable way to get many inputs and outputs, with mic pres and sophisticated hardware monitoring capabilities, combined with low latency of the Lynx AES16e-50.

Have been very happy with the setup so far.

Last edited by Dewdman42; 1st July 2019 at 05:15 PM..
Old 1st July 2019
  #3289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomjab View Post
Yes I want something that can be used as a router/mixer without firing up a DAW.

I have the data on the 828es latency I was looking for.

Thanks to the forum members that followed up.

Just go for this all in one banger.

https://www.thomann.de/es/tascam_mod...8aAiTXEALw_wcB


I would be curious to try it, although Tascam is notorious for having poor RTL.
Although I did use their interfaces for many years without problem. It was not until I came across this forum until I started to pay more attention.
The US 20x20 was a great interface, especially for the price.
Old 1st July 2019
  #3290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallon426 View Post
Just go for this all in one banger.

https://www.thomann.de/es/tascam_mod...8aAiTXEALw_wcB


I would be curious to try it, although Tascam is notorious for having poor RTL.
Although I did use their interfaces for many years without problem. It was not until I came across this forum until I started to pay more attention.
The US 20x20 was a great interface, especially for the price.
I guess my requirement list above was missing one. It must be rack mount. I don’t have room for a mixing board.

I have ordered the MOTU 828es so no need to pull this thread further off topic.

I will follow up with numbers for the 828es on my Mac using the beta RTL Utility for any Mac users that are interested.


Last edited by Gomjab; 1st July 2019 at 12:09 PM.. Reason: Typo
Old 2nd July 2019
  #3291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by throbert View Post
That's what I like about the newer MOTU interfaces, they have onboard mixing, routing and DSP, so you don't need a computer to process audio if you only want to run the AVB. Still most of them have TB and USB3. I would use an 8D in my set up for a monitor network though:
Nice.

That would be lovely for a live performance rig.

My new build will probably be an Aurora(n), (I've worked with one, and the sound quality is incredible) but that has no onboard DSP so I have to think hard about this. (I think RME has something similar, yes?)

I guess it all depends upon how low I can get my buffer, with an overclocked 9920X. Maybe I'll build the pc first, see what I get, and then decide on the interface.
----------------------

With the MOTU, how easy is it to make adjustments to the cue mix?
Does a screen come up that looks like a regular mixer, with faders & such?
Can you make subgroups?
Old 2nd July 2019
  #3292
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Dewdman42's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by speerchucker View Post
Nice.
My new build will probably be an Aurora(n), (I've worked with one, and the sound quality is incredible) but that has no onboard DSP so I have to think hard about this.
(I think RME has something similar, yes?)
I'd love some auroras too. I can't justify the price. I have heard they sound amazing also. I'm incredibly impressed by the low latency performance of the AES16e-50.

I'm also still of the opinion that the various PCIe solutions will always beat out TB. Technically speaking, PCIe is still a bit faster. Possibly not on thruput, but in terms of latency.

Quote:
With the MOTU, how easy is it to make adjustments to the cue mix?
Does a screen come up that looks like a regular mixer, with faders & such?
Can you make subgroups?
I don't know about subgroups, but they have come along way on their cuemix mixer and built in FX. I chose X32-rack for my hardware monitoring for various reasons, but some MOTU boxes would have been my next choice. Its just that it would have required 2-3x as much money and also I prefer using PCIe over TB.

The question I have about MOTU and AVB is whether these devices can be used over ethernet in some way INSTEAD OF using TB or USB to connect to the computer? And if so, what the latency is like in that mode?
Old 2nd July 2019
  #3293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdman42 View Post

The question I have about MOTU and AVB is whether these devices can be used over ethernet in some way INSTEAD OF using TB or USB to connect to the computer? And if so, what the latency is like in that mode?
Looks like it can be with a firmware update on mac.
https://motu.com/avb/using-your-motu...-avb-ethernet/
But they do not recommend it:
Quote:
PLEASE NOTE: this procedure requires macOS 10.11. Under macOS 10.10, 10.12 or 10.13, performance is unreliable (as explained in this technote), and we do not recommend direct AVB connection. Apple has been made aware of these issues in their AVB audio driver (it is part of macOS) and we hope to see improved performance in a future macOS update.
Old 2nd July 2019
  #3294
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"I'm also still of the opinion that the various PCIe solutions will always beat out TB. Technically speaking, PCIe is still a bit faster. Possibly not on thruput, but in terms of latency."

AFAIK, right now, that's only true with the current Windows mobos that use add-on cards. Every expert I've talked with says TB, properly implemented, should be slightly better, because of less cpu overhead. (how the TB chip accesses DMA) This is mostly theoretical with Windows, though. Clearly, some past comparisons have shown PCIe to have slightly better throughput, but that's with earlier TB chips and add-on cards. Even the current X299 mobos with onboard TB are having serious issues. (Ocassional TB disconnects, etc)

Let's see what we get with the upcoming boards from Gigabyte & Asus. Hopefully they've finally worked out the bugs.

And of course, there's always Ryzen 3000. That looks fairly promising, even for low HW buffers, though we shall see .....

======================

"The question I have about MOTU and AVB is whether these devices can be used over ethernet in some way INSTEAD OF using TB or USB to connect to the computer? And if so, what the latency is like in that mode?"

That sounds similar to Dante, and Dante currently has massive issues with latency. I would hold out much hope for such a system.

======================


BTW - One nice thing about TB and live performance, is that you can have a spare PC on stage, and if your main rig goes down, you can just hot-swap the TB cable. No need for a second, expensive PCIe card. - And no need to power-cycle, while the audience stares at you. (And yes, Ive been there quite a few times. )

Last edited by speerchucker; 2nd July 2019 at 08:11 PM..
Old 2nd July 2019
  #3295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daskeladden View Post
Looks like it can be with a firmware update on mac.
https://motu.com/avb/using-your-motu...-avb-ethernet/
But they do not recommend it:
Very interesting, thanks for sharing that! I guess Apple's AVB audio drivers must always be used, regardless of whether the ethernet interface is built into the modo or via PCI card or TB ethernet adapter... yea?

Either way, the extra tech notes says that over ethernet is higher latency then raw TB also. bleh... Presuming Apple every fixes that, I wonder what the latency would actually be?

For me this is an alternative to going dante, but only if Apple or MOTU sort out drivers. I wish MOTU would release an AVB pci card to connect the computer to any other AVB devices. I'd be onboard with that in a few seconds...
Old 2nd July 2019
  #3296
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throbert's Avatar
 

Quote:
With the MOTU, how easy is it to make adjustments to the cue mix?
Does a screen come up that looks like a regular mixer, with faders & such?
Can you make subgroups?
I don't think you use Cue mix with the AVB interfaces, there's Audiodesk to record, edit, mix, and so forth.
If you want access to the onboard mixer you can do so with your browser using Ethernet, TB or USB. The object is to avoid high latency audio through the computer using ethernet
Try reading a user guide
Old 2nd July 2019
  #3297
Gear Head
 

I posted the formula to calculate the RTL of the Motus over AVB for the linux AVB driver here:

Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base

That's the lowest values you can get and much lower than with the Apple AVB driver.
Old 3rd July 2019
  #3298
Here for the gear
 

any idea if the new MK3 Scarlett units share the same drivers as any of their previous models?
Old 3rd July 2019
  #3299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peak09 View Post
any idea if the new MK3 Scarlett units share the same drivers as any of their previous models?
Not looking too good

https://youtu.be/b7wwjHnT6WE?t=362
Old 3rd July 2019
  #3300
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallon426 View Post
I find logic reports higher latency numbers than pretty much any other DAW I've used. Not really sure why but it just does.
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