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Logic Degrading Kontakt 4!!!
Old 1st January 2011
  #31
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valis's Avatar
Well I've used Logic since 4.3 (started being productive around 4.8) and Cubase since VST 3.x ish. Used every VI from Neon to the forebear of reaktor (Generator 1.x) to present day Komplete and other 3rd party ones. I don't think my ears are totally shot but I'm not a dsp guru (haven't much audio specific math/coding knowledge beyond casual reading.) Basically I'm not an 'expert' but have (imo) enough experience and compared to other applications on OSX I don't really find any major issues with Logic.

However I know people that swear by realtime bounces only, while others insist on offline bounces only and some are amazed that some new app they're using sounds 'so much better than Logic' (I think even Dom said this in a thread?) I can only muse that there's some combination of personal preference/preconception mixed with unknown (to me) technical issues or combinations of settings to account for this. Saying it's only one thing (Logic's fault for instance) or that these things don't exist at all would be silly imo...

There are some troubleshooting methods you can emply that Apple provides, and some startup modifier keys as well as Logic specific forums (which is where I picked up a lot of my info--sonikmatter, LUG & Logic Pro forums.)

I certainly understand just wanting to get on with things and not fiddle forever. Funny how people said for years that's how macs are, and now people seem to be shifting opinion away from that just as much. Imo this has as much to do with familiarity as anything, and as you say whether a specific bug in an app impacts your workflow. I see some of the people complaining about issues with doing multiple takes and skip cycles which affect me rarely if at all but seems to plague them.

I would back down and simplify your test case, start with a fresh template (and perhaps fresh project), check prefs and the other things in the troubleshooting doc. Then check the differences between things like 32bit mode with memory server (and without?) versus 64bit mode, account for summing differences due to pan-law versus the standalone version and so on. You can also temporarily disable plugins, try different audio drivers like the internal one and etc.
Old 1st January 2011
  #32
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Reborn, maybe I have old tired ears but whether I load a Kontakt library instrument in Logic Pro 9.1.3, Vienna Ensemble Pro, or standalone if I adjust the gain so they match and leave the panning centered, I just do not hear a difference.
Old 1st January 2011
  #33
Gear Guru
 
Muser's Avatar
recording onto an external device and then checking in another environment or then trying a null test might be a good plan.

just to check kontakt in the simplest way possible. preferably one instance, maybe triggered from an external midi source. something certainly has to trigger the standalone.

I can't properly ascertain how subtle or obvious this issue actually is.
but I find one can sometimes find the more subtle differences are often overstressed more when communicating about them.
e.g. the tiniest of subtle differences take on larger proportions by the need to communicate them, especially if you consider them to be potentially very important.

I am tending to think these days that the biggest fight for a mix in Logic is actually because the ability to precisely set and Automate levels is woefully inadequate. a different pan law compounds the problem because you are even less able to get to precise level balances than you were in the first place. which was already bad enough. those level differences have direct impact on how frequencies are able to mask or interact with one another.

this level precision may well be the case with other DAWs in fact. I don't see why it wouldn't be.
Old 1st January 2011
  #34
Lives for gear
I just wanna say thank you to everyone has helped weigh in on this discussion and especially for the civil manner in which we have spoke about it! I think alot of things make it hard to have this discussion. Starting with gear attached to the side of everyone's head. These audiophile pieces(ears)
are equally designed for everyone, however the receiver ( the brain, mind soul & personality) comes in a endless variety. Then as we move down the chain to the rooms and monitors in use to hear sound they vary. Then there is the distortion that can occur with written language. The fact we can get something accompiished and move the discussion foward is something to be proud of!

For me at the end of the day, despite being a devoted Logic user over 8 years. I have to say at this point it is a mixed bag for me. I love most of the workflow but too many things are broken too call it "logic Pro". Th efoward motion with Logic has brought features to every DAW on the market but I have too say Protools time and pitch flexing tools generally sound better than Logic. Even apple loops can get really full of Artifacts even with reasonable tempo changes. If these problems are system dependent I would love to find the solution because I really don't want to change DAWS even though change is Goodthumbsup
Old 1st January 2011
  #35
Lives for gear
 
The MPCist's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elteto View Post
In some plugins, when the CPU load reaches a certain level, the plugin switches to lower quality rendering. Same with the use of multiple processor cores, some VSTs render audio cruder if they have less processing power available.
Not quite the same subject but I had an experience with DAW playback/quality problems....

About 12-14 years ago, I remember working in a studio where I walked in to listen to last night's session and noticed something really wrong with the sound -- I really couldn't put my finger on it other than that the whole sound had been downgraded in quality.

It was Pro Tools playing through the SSL, same monitors, same everything.... until the engineer fessed up that in order to save time, he just opened the session from the CD-R and was playing it from that.

We went back to the session on hard drive and the sound went back to normal.

So, software can truncate/downgrade the tracks in order to play back (in this case, because the CD-R read rate was way slower than the SCSI).

It will still play.

But won't sound the same.
Old 18th January 2011
  #36
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
recording onto an external device and then checking in another environment or then trying a null test might be a good plan.

just to check kontakt in the simplest way possible. preferably one instance, maybe triggered from an external midi source. something certainly has to trigger the standalone.

I can't properly ascertain how subtle or obvious this issue actually is.
but I find one can sometimes find the more subtle differences are often overstressed more when communicating about them.
e.g. the tiniest of subtle differences take on larger proportions by the need to communicate them, especially if you consider them to be potentially very important.

I am tending to think these days that the biggest fight for a mix in Logic is actually because the ability to precisely set and Automate levels is woefully inadequate. a different pan law compounds the problem because you are even less able to get to precise level balances than you were in the first place. which was already bad enough. those level differences have direct impact on how frequencies are able to mask or interact with one another.

this level precision may well be the case with other DAWs in fact. I don't see why it wouldn't be.
ive noticed the samething but in cubase and logic it seems dynamic range as well as frequencies play a big part and kontakt being multitimbrel needing a high bandwith to start with

plus heavy bass kills everything

i just imported audio trackz from logic that i batched out samething not mixing well so i lowered all the levels then brung them back up with a limiter on the master buss it helped alot

kontakt stick notes in logic always have since logic 5 they say kontakt 3 sound better then kontakt 4 someone had a few patches that they up loaded and yup k4 distorted they may have fixed it by now tho i love kontakt btw
Old 18th January 2011
  #37
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davey boy's Avatar
 

I don't normally get involved in these discussions as I think they're kind of moot (or mute...) but just "for fun" I did a short piano sequence in Logic and triggered K4's Concert Grand and bounced to disc. I then exported the midi file and flew it into DP 7 and triggered the same K4 sound. Finally, I triggered K4 stand alone using IAC and captured the audio using Audio Hijack Pro. I made sure all 3 files were the exact same level (I did not normalize) and all are 24 bit 44k wave files. I sincerely doubt if anyone can tell these 3 apart, I can't. I decided to make this a blind test just to be inline with normal Gearslutz geekdom. Enjoy!

piano1.wav
piano2.wav
piano3.wav
Old 18th January 2011
  #38
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by davey boy View Post
I don't normally get involved in these discussions as I think they're kind of moot (or mute...) but just "for fun" I did a short piano sequence in Logic and triggered K4's Concert Grand and bounced to disc. I then exported the midi file and flew it into DP 7 and triggered the same K4 sound. Finally, I triggered K4 stand alone using IAC and captured the audio using Audio Hijack Pro. I made sure all 3 files were the exact same level (I did not normalize) and all are 24 bit 44k wave files. I sincerely doubt if anyone can tell these 3 apart, I can't. I decided to make this a blind test just to be inline with normal Gearslutz geekdom. Enjoy!

piano1.wav
piano2.wav
piano3.wav
i hear a difference ! piano1 has a better ring at the top end, piano2 sounds the most distorted piano3 is the most dull
i listened to each 3 times

wow thankz but yea i think the plugins you use at at high db levels give you different results

ie;nomad factory's magnetic cant seem to handle anything near 0db it distorts really bad

but where does that distortion start ? lower then i can hear im sure
Old 18th January 2011
  #39
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by davey boy View Post
I don't normally get involved in these discussions as I think they're kind of moot (or mute...) but just "for fun" I did a short piano sequence in Logic and triggered K4's Concert Grand and bounced to disc. I then exported the midi file and flew it into DP 7 and triggered the same K4 sound. Finally, I triggered K4 stand alone using IAC and captured the audio using Audio Hijack Pro. I made sure all 3 files were the exact same level (I did not normalize) and all are 24 bit 44k wave files. I sincerely doubt if anyone can tell these 3 apart, I can't. I decided to make this a blind test just to be inline with normal Gearslutz geekdom. Enjoy!

piano1.wav
piano2.wav
piano3.wav
Davey boy, I like your thinking! Completely disagree with the post above since, for some reason I can hear identical drop outs on all 3,which jayclas doesn't mention. The levels seem a tad different to me. Either this is some weird artifact of encoding or ...
Old 18th January 2011
  #40
Lives for gear
 
davey boy's Avatar
 

Remember that this piano has many velocity layers and a round robin thing going on so it doesn't play back exactly the same each time (at least I think that's the case). My feeling after quickly listening to all 3 in Peak is that they all basically sound the same. There's nothing dramatically different about them. But, what do I know.
Old 18th January 2011
  #41
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valis's Avatar
So the question is if others here can detect the 'degraded' version (assuming that such an issue exists) with this blind test? Post up your picks!
Old 18th January 2011
  #42
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by valis View Post
So the question is if others here can detect the 'degraded' version (assuming that such an issue exists) with this blind test? Post up your picks!
dr jezz i have kontakt and i believe there pedal sounds triggered with the piano so i wasnt concerned with that at all

hey valis i checked it and yes you have some great ears my man i got news for you 1st listen to my mp3's, then post your thoughts i gotta quadruple check before i put it out there.

it cant be debated either way the proof is in the 3 mp3's below! please feed back
Old 19th January 2011
  #43
Lives for gear
 
valis's Avatar
Not a very good double blind test.....

Plus why use additional processing?

To be honest if the sound is somehow 'degraded' from Logic, a single looped sample or set of nonlayered samples played back sequentially (ie, a few notes) with no amp/filtering/etc features enabled so that everything is consistent would be idea. And if you want to reduce filesize from wav/aiff I'd suggest using FLAC.
Old 19th January 2011
  #44
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by valis View Post
Not a very good double blind test.....

Plus why use additional processing?

To be honest if the sound is somehow 'degraded' from Logic, a single looped sample or set of nonlayered samples played back sequentially (ie, a few notes) with no amp/filtering/etc features enabled so that everything is consistent would be idea. And if you want to reduce filesize from wav/aiff I'd suggest using Flac/Alac not mp3...
double blind?o ok no forget that its no longer important trust me theres a big difference big big difference but ok ill rename them with no vocals blind test it is
Old 19th January 2011
  #45
Gear Addict
 

ok blind test lol logic and cubase are the daws no processing just kontakt 4 same exact sounds but in different daw ,

kontakt output at 9.2db daw fader set to 0db

tell me what you hear,o and you to dr jezz please!
Attached Files

blind 1.mp3 (2.86 MB, 170 views)

blind 2.mp3 (2.86 MB, 171 views)

Old 19th January 2011
  #46
Lives for gear
 

No problem in hearing the difference there, even though I thought Davey's were pretty much identical. Just on Bose headphones (I'm on the laptop) 2 is mushy and reverb tails and delay have disappeared amongst a plethora of differences. 1 defo clearer. 2 sounds as if it's distorting and sounds as if it's running through another bus or effect (almost bitcrushed). Does not sound normal for Logic, although I'm guessing that's what your issue is. Kontakt has always sounded great for me and I've used Scarbee stuff for a long time via Kontakt in Logic. No difference between Scarbee in Kontakt or EXS24 for me.
Old 19th January 2011
  #47
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_Jezz View Post
No problem in hearing the difference there, even though I thought Davey's were pretty much identical. Just on Bose headphones (I'm on the laptop) 2 is mushy and reverb tails and delay have disappeared amongst a plethora of differences. 1 defo clearer. 2 sounds as if it's distorting and sounds as if it's running through another bus or effect (almost bitcrushed). Does not sound normal for Logic, although I'm guessing that's what your issue is. Kontakt has always sounded great for me and I've used Scarbee stuff for a long time via Kontakt in Logic. No difference between Scarbee in Kontakt or EXS24 for me.
i am a logic man when they left pc i when to cubase and cubase sounded very bad (when you bounced to 16bit) until the nuendo engine and apogee dither but i never said which was logic ? but the reverb tail seemed more 3d on davey's first one ill take another listen tho
Old 19th January 2011
  #48
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TobyToby's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayclas View Post
ok blind test lol logic and cubase are the daws no processing just kontakt 4 same exact sounds but in different daw ,

kontakt output at 9.2db daw fader set to 0db

tell me what you hear,o and you to dr jezz please!
So blind 2 is related to your 'lol' ?
Old 19th January 2011
  #49
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayclas View Post
i am a logic man when they left pc i when to cubase and cubase sounded very bad (when you bounced to 16bit) until the nuendo engine and apogee dither but i never said which was logic ? but the reverb tail seemed more 3d on davey's first one ill take another listen tho
Interesting. I was just commenting on my experiences with Kontakt Vs. EXS being identical in Logic for the OP really.

TBH, I thought Davey had naughtily heh posted identical clips with very slightly different level/eq, because at my end I could hear what sounded like identical drop outs on at least two of the tracks and very similar on the other. If that's the action of the sustain pedal, ouch!
Old 19th January 2011
  #50
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayclas View Post
ok blind test lol logic and cubase are the daws no processing just kontakt 4 same exact sounds but in different daw ,

kontakt output at 9.2db daw fader set to 0db

tell me what you hear,o and you to dr jezz please!

Well the first clip is stereo and the second is mono so I 'm not sure what you're trying to demonstrate there.
Old 19th January 2011
  #51
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobyToby View Post
So blind 2 is related to your 'lol' ?
o yea "valis" got on me about putting which one as cubase and which one was logic among other things so i deleted comment and the other mp3's

he was right about it tho so i laughed about it , but hey man what do you think? about what you hear
Old 19th January 2011
  #52
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by davey boy View Post
I don't normally get involved in these discussions as I think they're kind of moot (or mute...) but just "for fun" I did a short piano sequence in Logic and triggered K4's Concert Grand and bounced to disc. I then exported the midi file and flew it into DP 7 and triggered the same K4 sound. Finally, I triggered K4 stand alone using IAC and captured the audio using Audio Hijack Pro. I made sure all 3 files were the exact same level (I did not normalize) and all are 24 bit 44k wave files. I sincerely doubt if anyone can tell these 3 apart, I can't. I decided to make this a blind test just to be inline with normal Gearslutz geekdom. Enjoy!

piano1.wav
piano2.wav
piano3.wav
piano3.wav is downloading as piano2 file?!
Old 19th January 2011
  #53
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvis Gotta Gun View Post
Well the first clip is stereo and the second is mono so I 'm not sure what you're trying to demonstrate there.
hey man now your wasting my time i just imported blind 2 in wavelab, waveburner , cubase and logic and it opened as stereo then i imported a mono track just to make sure

then ur saying something that seem negative about the piano 2 ?

we just tryna help a guy that asked a question, feel free to post something useful instead of judging please
Old 19th January 2011
  #54
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_Jezz View Post
Interesting. I was just commenting on my experiences with Kontakt Vs. EXS being identical in Logic for the OP really.

TBH, I thought Davey had naughtily heh posted identical clips with very slightly different level/eq, because at my end I could hear what sounded like identical drop outs on at least two of the tracks and very similar on the other. If that's the action of the sustain pedal, ouch!
its cool man but if kontakt is dropping out like that in 2 different daws then ouch either way ! let me read the op tho because kontakt updated vsl orc killed exs24 orc sounds imo
Old 19th January 2011
  #55
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reborn View Post
Hey Folks,

So this has me really thinking about moving on from LOGIC! I have run a few test and have found some concerning things. For instance most of my third party sound libraries sound much more detailed and crsi[p run in stand alone versus running them inside LOGIC. There is a clear loss of sound quality. Does anyone know what is going on here? Is this a problem in other DAWS. Because if it is a Logic only situation I must move to a new platform. Feedback is needed on this one right away by anyone who knows. It's like the libraries become mush inside LOGIC compared to outside of logic.

I am not a Logic hater, so that everyone knows. I have been using it since Logic 4. But, I have always had too work real hard to get the bottom end on things right and especially the upper mids!! Is Logic just a sonic Dog and great Midi program? Someone help me out here I have to make a major decision here. Thanks!!!



Jazztone
ok i read it just making sure if your still here reborn buzz in because there is a very big issue at hand this has been the best thread so far even tho there are a few people simply contradicting instead of posting demos or helping with the demos as usual but b4 i give my verdict....


chime in please!
Old 19th January 2011
  #56
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayclas View Post
hey man now your wasting my time i just imported blind 2 in wavelab, waveburner , cubase and logic and it opened as stereo then i imported a mono track just to make sure

then ur saying something that seem negative about the piano 2 ?

we just tryna help a guy that asked a question, feel free to post something useful instead of judging please
Listen to your own files with headphones on. Why does blind 2.mp3 have no side information (reverb or anything) in comparison to blind 1.mp3? That's all I'm asking there.

And for Christ's sake, I'm not saying anything "negative" about Davey's piano 2. Merely saying that Piano 3.wav is unavailable to me and is downloading piano 2.wav in it's place. That's all.

As for wasting your time, you can drop the condescending bull****. This whole thread is a monumental waste of time. Serves me right I guess.
Old 19th January 2011
  #57
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvis Gotta Gun View Post
Listen to your own files with headphones on. Why does blind 2.mp3 have no side information (reverb or anything) in comparison to blind 1.mp3? That's all I'm asking there.

And for Christ's sake, I'm not saying anything "negative" about Davey's piano 2. Merely saying that Piano 3.wav is unavailable to me and is downloading piano 2.wav in it's place. That's all.

As for wasting your time, you can drop the condescending bull****. This whole thread is a monumental waste of time. Serves me right I guess.
sorry man i apologize for that man please except! i know you got a gun!

but ok it sound mono to you thats worse then i anticipated because it's not

big problem for one of those daws im pin pointing whats going on, before i post my comment then ill explain how to do your own test because the 44.1 wave is more obvious
Old 19th January 2011
  #58
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayclas View Post
sorry man i apologize for that man please except!

but ok it sound mono to you thats worse then i anticipated because it not

big problem for one of those daws im pin pointing whats going on, before i post my comment then ill explain how to do your own test because the 44.1 wave is more obvious
Apology accepted; Thank-you. I appreciate the fact you're actually testing this out yourself, providing audio clips and putting these dubious claims under the scrutiny they deserve.

The original poster should have offered some evidence re: his claims in the first place.
Old 19th January 2011
  #59
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvis Gotta Gun View Post
Apology accepted; Thank-you. I appreciate the fact you're actually testing this out yourself, providing audio clips and putting these dubious claims under the scrutiny they deserve.

The original poster should have offered some evidence re: his claims in the first place.
cool man can you believe i have the old exs24 player

its loaded in cubase 5 im loading the samples in the folder now

i test that with the same patches in logic and see what happens!
Old 19th January 2011
  #60
Gear Guru
 
Muser's Avatar
what GS needs is a set of Audio test material which is prepared and ratified by the high end mastering guys. not prepared on any of the DAWs or Samplers if possible.

Then those signals would be consistent starting sources for subsequent tests in Samplers and as Audio Tracks in DAWS etc.

I had a quick look at those pianos in iZotope RX. I couldn't detect any major differences, or many minor ones for that matter. but its hard because the material is complex material to look at.

btw, different samplers have different velocity curves. at least the used to. Those were tested in an SOS article a while back.
EXS had the most linear velocity curve at the time. so there could be different velocity to db ratios in those cases.
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