Yes, they stooped updating in 2016...
Sadly I was not able to proper test mine...

The https://www.microcenter.com/product/...-graphics-card
Is modern and will work fine with anything.

Thank you, i will put that one in the list instead.

I tried 128 and 256 samples, seems about the same. Input latency is around 3.9 ms. output is 5.0 ms

I just did a test with Diva instances on "GREAT" mode, I was able to run 80 Divas (6 voices each) with no problems. So maybe my computer is fine and theres just something super taxing on the computer in 'Divine mode'. And realistically I won't ever need 20 Divas in divine mode. But I am curious since your build is similar to mine if you wouldn't mind doing a test also to see how many you can handle?

Thanks for that. I wanted to add I'm currently running on board Intel graphics. Using Latencymon I did notice Direct X has a little bit of bottleneck. Perhaps using a graphic card also helps? I will be using my prior graphics card but right now I'm migrating between the 2 computers so I need it on the old one temporarily

Hey ppl,

got myself a MSI Z490 Tomahawk, i9 10850K and Corsair Vengeance 64gb ram.

Any real reason to flash the BIOS to the latest one or not? System works fine as is, so I'd rather not mess with it.

Also, I've never overclocked, but it seems the system was setup OC'd from the get go. What is a safe frequency to OC (I'm thinking a little below the max possible)? And lastly, how do you set that (MSI or Intel utility)?

Hi all,

Planning a new DAW build for a couple of months now, and one of the requirements I have is to have 3 M.2 drives - one for system, one for software and one for samples.

As I understand, each M.2 drive takes 4 pcie lanes, thus - if I choose either intel or amd - both (i9 10900k / zen 3 5000) having around 20 pcie lanes available, and with a graphics card (which I don't mind running at 8x) I still exceed the number of pcie lanes available, since the chipset takes 4x lanes as well.

This led me to think about the 2066 socket intels (i9-10900x series) that have plenty of pcie lanes, and also quad channel memory - as described in this video:



He also mentions that using quad channel memory is a big advantage when using it for DAW applications.

Performance benchmarks show that currently Amd has the edge over intel, and even over the Cascade lake processors, which got me leaning towards an AMD 5800x based system, but as I mentioned, it doesn't have enough pcie lanes for my requirements...

SO - is the pcie lane count a serious issue that I should not overlook, based on my requirements?
And - Quad channel memory vs Dual Channel?



p.s I was even considering waiting for rocket lake to arrive, but as far as I know, the pcie lane situation will stay the same even for rocket lake...

Appreciate your thoughts, input and/or experience!

Thanks :-)

LGA 2066 is certainly the king of I/O.

I am, however, skeptical whether you gain an overall speed advantage this way. Audio just doesn't make enough of a racket on modern SSDs, much less on 3 of them, to trump higher CPU speed. Same for memory bandwidth, quad-channel doesn't do a lot of real-world speedup.

I might still buy a LGA 2066 system, but I have "more real" I/O needs with a large storage array, 10 GbE etc.

For audio(not video) workloads the bottleneck is in the software, the
MLC/TLC NVMe drives are sooo fast you can even have just one and
install everything there with no performance loss for audio stuff...
With AMD you can get PCIe generation V4 SSDs!
You may find this interesting.

You've stated this several times recently . . . and I'd like to believe you! You also generally link to articles supporting your contentions, which is appreciated. So how about a link or two to other opinions sharing the same view?

Also, was your recommendation for the new Seagate Firecuda OS SSD just because that's all that's available currently in Australia for that one guy or has that drive superceded your previous support for Samsung?

Thanks!

Hey, Y'all.

My Currentsetup:

Dell XPS 9560(what a disaster)
Apollo Twin TB3
Cubase 8.5

I need to track vocals via the Apollo and use guitar plugins in-box(like neural dsp) at 64 samples on a new desktop rig, at the same time if possible.
The aforementioned XPS could record raw audio but never with plugins without stops and pops.

What type of setup would you recommend to have the least probability of having problems running plugs and stay stable? Are most macs able to do this without a problem(like a refurbished intel mac mini?). I'm at a loss with the last system I purchased. I'm thinking desktop this time and just not have the headache of configuring laptops with their hangups. I need something that will work and be a general workhorse and hopefully last awhile. As I just purchased a bunch of plugs for the apollo just for my vox, noise/quite factor would be an issue.

Thanks in advance.

P.S. I'm really gunshy with PC while all my 'pro audio' friends work on macs for a living. Coming from a gaming/IT background it's hard to make the jump to mac still.

The only link I have is this
https://vi-control.net/community/thr...-faster.69572/
Other audio software will have different results, but still none will saturate the NVMe.
Monitor your system resources and you will begin to know and understand where the bottleneck is...
https://processhacker.sourceforge.io/

It depends...
For PCIe Gen4 x4 drive Samsung 980 Pro is the king, but only 1TB max size.
If need bigger size, Firecuda 520 and Sabrent Rocket 4.0 seen to be the choice.

What I remove my recommendation is for ADATA 8200 Pro.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/ad...mments-3658256

Your Apollo is capable of low latency via its console app. This should allow you to set the buffer high in the daw, and use "hardware monitoring" or "direct monitoring", to eliminate and latency associated with monitoring live audio thru the daw.

This restricts you to UAD plugs only for the live tracks, but you can print them during tracking, or switch them to native plugs as soon as your done tracking.

The laptop looks well equipped if i googled the correct one and should have no issues, as far as its power. Unless your trying to do big track counts with live native plugs. I suspect there is an issue with your daw settings/ workflow, or the computer (network card, Bluetooth, ect) causing interference. Odd noises could be PSU related. There are alot of variables in laptops.

Junkie XL a pro composer for film an tv uses a mac mini master, and 7th gen 10 core pc in his setup with UA and Motu interfaces.

The issue with mac mini is they are grossly overpriced for what they are, and have a wimpy psu, and aren't expandable. With mac generally they are in a transition stage to Apple Silicon chips, so there is a question of long term support and viability, as apple and software move into their new format.

In order to reccomend a fitting computer you need to say how many tracks, vsti, and plugs you usually use, and how many will need to be at low buffers. A singer/songwriter could use a dual core, a pop artist may need a 16 core.

Unless I'm missing something, that would appear to be a discussion about whether to spread Kontakt sample libraries over one or multiple SSDS, not a discussion on the merits of combining OS, Audio (recording) and samples onto one high capacity SSD.

I'd still like to believe your theory, it would be very convenient, but I've never read or seen anyone else endorsing that on this forum or any other PC music forum or PC builder site.

Anybody have any thoughts preferences on these two cases, for an audio only pc, noise doesn't matter, thermal performance is priority? Ryzen 3950x.

Lian Li Lancool ii mesh (2x 140mm model)

Phanteks P500a

---

Ill post the full build out list for critism once ive narrowed the case and case fans, which are the last components i need to fill in.

Thanks.

Hey! Thanks for the reply.

I figured the switch to Mac's M1 chips would make the switch kind of tenuous on top of expensive. So I agree with you that Macs are probably out.

Short term:
I'd like to do vocals with a few uad plugs (neve 1084, API 2500) , reverb in the daw.

-and-

Guitars...
I really don't care for the UAD guitar plugs and would like to use the Neural DSP ones at 64 samples. 128 feels really late to me; It feel's right on 64. I demo'd a lot of UA guitar plugs(silver jubilee was my favorite because it actually had some headroom)...but The Cory Wong Neural DSP is just a boring Deluxe and JTM 45 to my ears...but they are just great for tracking live and that's what I'd be doing. My current setup cuts out after a minute of my crappy 9560 not being able to do it. No matter the setting, it always cuts outi, natievly or in Cuebase. You can see the realtime peaks happen pretty after about a minute of use in Cuebase.

-annnnd'-

Probably DI Bass(prolly the ampeg on the Apollo or his DI into the Line in)

Long-term:
Lots of vsti's: East West or Spitfire(I have some scoring gigs coming up...I'll probably use one of these). I don't think my track counts would get insane but I do have sparse string parts I'm going to need to get.

All of the above in the short term plus live drums:
I plan on moving into a space that would at least allow me to record my trio at my place, after upgrading my interface probably to a uad 8p or something similar.

I'd really like something that just isn't going to have these troubleshooting problems. The UAD makes my 9560 somewhat usable, but this computer's specs should've made a lot of stuff run fast and blip free. I'd probably do business, play games, do my awful fliers/shirts for the band on a new desktop.

Thanks again for your time.

I have all my stuff on a single nvme. They are so much faster than spinning platters, there is no bottleneck to address with multiple drives. I take the position that I would need proof of command queuing that hurts performance to be convinced otherwise. Also nvme takes lots of pcie lanes and one or two sockets built into mobo, so lots of reasons to go big on a single device.

Good to hear. Do you have it partitioned, and if so, how?

For your workload an intel 10850/ryzen 3900 would be on the cheaper side and a 10980xe/3950 on the more expensive side should fit nicely. There's not alot of r5000 series testing out there for audio so its tough to say how the 5900 stands to the 3950.

There still seems to be an issue with the settings on your laptop. Ive done low buffer tracking on a core 2 duo laptop for guitars and vsti without issue. We are talking windows xp days...

I would try and go through the troubleshooting process since your hardware is more than capable of tracking with moderate plugs and track counts. There are several people here who could help you try and isolate the issue.

This is windows environment. I use a 1tb samsung drive that is designed for commercial use--the equivalent of a evo pro. I set up a 256 gig C drive and the rest is a F drive where I keep static things like samples.

The C drive needs a special backup process so that recovered images are bootable. I use a purchased copy of macrium for that. The F drive can be backed up with a simple copy process.

The F drive has my native instuments instrument libraries, which obviously don't change, and lots of other things.

The ssd drives do load balancing so that the writes can be spread around. This is another advantage of a larger ssd--more space to do load balancing. The partitions are logical and have nothing to do with where data actually is stored on the drive. I use two partitions simply because I like to use two backup processes.

<raises hand> I run a 10 core iMac Pro with a 2TB internal SSD. I have OS, apps, Cubase project folders (with audio) and part of my extensive sample libraries on the internal drive. Most of my samples are on an external TB3 box with 4 X 2TB Samsung SATA SSD's. My observations:

1) I did quite a bit of testing when I first got the machine almost 3 years ago by evaluating load times of sample libraries on the internal SSD (way faster than SATA) vs the external SATA drives. With the exception of one library, Garrison CFX piano, nothing loaded any faster.

2) Projects with samples and audio streaming off the internal drive run flawlessly - the disk performance meter in Cubase never even registers. My limit is always CPU.

3) a number of composer on vi-control have come to the same conclusion including Richard Ames (rgames on vi-control, http://www.rgamesmusic.com) has tested this stuff quite a bit and has opinions many times over there that NVMe is a waste for samples.

4) While I haven't tested it yet, the relatively new VSL Synchron Player may take some advantage of the NVMe speed since it measures streaming performance of libraries and automatically adjusts the preload buffers (RAM).

My advice based on personal experience and numerous threads at vi-control - save your money and PCIe lanes and go with SATA SSD's for samples and audio/DAW data.

Your setup is very interesting. I will say that from what I am seeing, nvme is maybe 50% more than sata, at least on the nice samsung stuff which is all I look at. I just looked on amazon and I see a samsung evo 2tb sata for $199. I see a samsung 2tb nvme for $314. Now this is not a thoughtful investigation which considers there different model levels, but it does look like the nvme is more.

I imagine your setup is optimal for your needs. I am a hobbyist and everything my computer needs fits on a 1tb ssd--and I feel the nvme is ideal for that. Were I to need to spend an extra $150 to get nvme, not a problem. Now if I needed 8tb, then that premium cost could start to add up.

I do have a 7tb truenas server that uses two seagate exos drives in a mirrored array. The exos have 1/10 the data error rate of normal retail drives. I use this to keep a copy of most computer stuff. For those not familar with this product, this is NAS storage--connected to my home network with ethernet cable.

I am seeing information from a number of sources that are changing my views on large sample library things. Folks on the apple m1 thread are saying the samples don't need to be all in ram, that they can get pulled off disk fast enough (which I consider an option but am not completely believing at this point), and here I am seeing that nvme is not necessary for samples. I think the orchestra types are the ones exploring the outer limits of what a PC can do.

I think this is a useful, but slightly different discussion than I was having with Trogg where I was suggesting a single large drive is better than multiple smaller ones--I think this remains a good suggestion whether the drives are nvme or sata.

> The Cory Wong Neural DSP is just a boring Deluxe and JTM 45 to my ears...but they are just great for tracking live and that's what I'd be doing. My current setup cuts out after a minute of my crappy 9560 not being able to do it. No matter the setting, it always cuts outi, natievly or in Cuebase. You can see the realtime peaks happen pretty after about a minute of use in Cuebase.

I'd be wary about upgrading based on the performance of that Cory Wong plugin. It sounds great, but Neural have royally cocked something up in relation to efficiency at low latencies - a lot of people have this exact issue. I can't even get below a
256 buffer with an RME card with that plugin. You could easily find you hit the exact same problems after upgrade.

My buddy is investing in macrium reflect or ancronis true image for bootable clones of his drives, any thoughts on one vs the other?

-------

Also, does using a single drive for os and projects eliminate the ability to run a RAID array for the projects drive.?

Macrium is more modern, more Windows and SSD friendly.
Macrium Rapid Delta Restore (RDR)
https://blog.macrium.com/techie-tues...i=c30181dd731e

But Macrium caused a problem, check here, Acronis caused many more in the past...
For me not a problem because I only use from a bootable pendrive.

I have a strong preference for macrium. I used to have acronis and I don't recall all the aggravations but at the very least I didn't like all the services it created to simply do backups and there was something about their upgrade prices--its been maybe 10 years.

At the very least, the free macrium is fully featured. I was using that and tried out the paid version and as a result got an email one day offering it at half price--for the money could not resist. It does some cool things the free one does not--I can't recall the details. But its pretty cool, and saved my butt a few times when I switch to a new C drive.

I personally don't use raid for my samples drive. Paying more for the samsung pro brings a statistically more reliable drive than a regular model, but any drive can fail--you can only improve your odds. To your specific question, I do think that having two partitions on a single drive means you can't sort of raid the second partition--I think that was your guess and you are correct. So, if you want to go that route, a separate C drive might be best--a 256 gig samsung pro nvme perhaps. And according to the other poster, for samples, sata is enough, so maybe some samsung evos in a mirrored configuration...

I do have two actual raid pci-e cards where you can plug in up to 4 sata drives and it sits on the pci-e bus and emulates a single hdd. I don't have a use for them, though. Some old server type gadgets from ebay. New they are very expensive. That is hardware raid which has been used in servers in the past 20 years. Now where I work, its all in a san, so there are essentially no drives in a server, just a fiber optic port in the back going to the san. And the vast majority of the servers are virtual so that fiber optic port is in the blade server that hosts the vm hosts--each blade maybe 700 gig of ram and two 32 cpu chips, or whatever it has gotten to these days. Run maybe 200 virtual machines on one.

I played with some of these technologies at home, but in the end, a locally mounted ssd does a great job and saves a lot of complicated infrastructure.

If your mobo supports raid, feel free to go for it.

My truenas NAS unit is set up to mirror two 7tb enterprise quality drives (might be over-kill but they are not very expensive). Its like I need 4 tb, but the 5 is just a few dollars more, and the 6 a few more, so got to 7 before the next price jump was high. Its sort of like I never need to think about disk space for backup storage anymore.

It is sort of software raid as the program uses a fancy file system that does checksums on all the files and is self-healing if there is an error detected. I am able to stream wav files from it to play music, but never tried anything more demanding like a samples drive. I consider it safe storage, not part of day to day use.

I will note that its not necessary to have a whole separate storage server. That is for convenience. About once A week I back it all up to a 5tb outboard usb drive I got for some amazing low price. So, it doesn't have to be fancy. An outboard disk also makes a great time capsule for the apple devices...

Thanks for the info. I may use my 3x ancronis 2018 licenses on the less performance critical machines, and switch go macrium for the audio/video machines. I'll read the links you gave.

My buddy is on Windows with all ssd for his new build mac pro/spinners for the old one.

I think i paid 30$ for a 3x license with ancronis. Ill try it on my lesser machines and see if the 2018 version has streamlined the services.

Have you compared freenas to true nas? I have an extra skylake 4 core that i thought might make a good nas.

They merged the codebases, so the free one is truenas as well. I just have it expose SMB for a windows file share. It can do lots more. I imagine acronis is fine, just liked mac better. I think I need to be more careful separating what is a truth from what is what I feel is better but not for strong reasons.

Any old computer will work and big spinners are inexpensive. Not much cpu needed.

Hey Guys after conscientiously reading this thread for a while, I'm on the go for a new config, first one since 10 years, I mainly work composing and producing music for TV, so I need something as versatile as possible...
I'd be glad to have your thoughts on this

Intel Core i7-10700KF (3.8 GHz)
GIGABYTE Z490 UD
DDR4 Textorm - 64 Go (4 x 16 Go) 3200 MHz - CAS 16
Be Quiet! Dark Rock Slim
MSI GeForce GT 730 2GD3H/LP (2 Go)
PNY CS2130 1 To
Seagate BarraCuda 2 To
Be Quiet! Pure Base 600 - Noir (Version fenêtre)
Corsair RM550x (v2) - 550W

J.

The GT 1030 is significantly faster, costs almost the same and you can get it with DisplayPort.

I'd also get a fanless Seasonic PSU, but it depends on your priorities, I guess.

Maybe Intel Core i9-10850K instead.
GIGABYTE Z490 UD pretty low end motherboard without bluetooth, wifi and native thunderbolt. Bad VRM?
PNY CS2130 1 To is not on the support list for GIGABYTE Z490 UD
Corsair RM550x not future proof if you wanna better GPU in the future. Minimum RM750x