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EUCON... what's the big deal?
Old 15th November 2010
  #1
Gear Head
 

EUCON... what's the big deal?

This is a genuinely innocent question.
What is the big deal with EUCON? Everywhere this protocol is brought up, it's highly praised. I would like to know exactly what EUCON has over, say, HUI, or other communication protocols. Anyone has some examples of what EUCON-enabled devices (i.e. Euphonix) are capable of that HUI-enabled devices would be able to achieve?
I'm guessing a big part of the answer to this question comes from actually using it, but hell, any help is appreciated. I'm trying to decide between getting a few Euphonix devices, against the SSL Nucleus... thanks!
Old 15th November 2010
  #2
Gear Addict
 

I don't know that exact differences, but generally Eucon is a deeper, less generic integration. That allows significantly faster and greater control over more parameters than HUI.

It runs over ethernet instead of midi which makes it faster and maybe more precise. that makes for better feel, and feel is an important aspect of a control surface.

Icon has the same advantage when uses with Pro Tools, but the Icon only works with Pro Tools. Eucon works with many DAWs, and soon if not already, Pro Tools.

So that's the big deal. HUI is great, Eucon is better, but as far as I know Eucon is only for Euphonix controllers. HUI is open to everyone.

If you have some time you should watch the videos on the Euphonix site, not just the for the Artist series, but also the expensive ones. You'll get an idea of how cool Eucon really is.

~Jay
Old 16th November 2010
  #3
Lives for gear
It's still a closed protocol I believe.
Old 16th November 2010
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toonman View Post
This is a genuinely innocent question.
What is the big deal with EUCON? Everywhere this protocol is brought up, it's highly praised. I would like to know exactly what EUCON has over, say, HUI, or other communication protocols. Anyone has some examples of what EUCON-enabled devices (i.e. Euphonix) are capable of that HUI-enabled devices would be able to achieve?
I'm guessing a big part of the answer to this question comes from actually using it, but hell, any help is appreciated. I'm trying to decide between getting a few Euphonix devices, against the SSL Nucleus... thanks!
HUI is basically level, pan and mute. No real integration, just faders and pan pots.

EUCON - you can assign buttons to take care of specific duties, bring plugins onto channels - have you ever used an integrated controller - procontrol/control 24, 002/003, logic control, Steinberg houston? that's the difference.
Old 16th November 2010
  #5
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KFMG's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkyGoldstein View Post
It's still a closed protocol I believe.
I don't believe that Eucon is that much of a closed protocol anymore since Avid's acquisition of Euphonics. It is now built into Pro Tools (as of PT9). There was a video a few months ago where an Avid exec was speaking about them open up the protocol. Now, it's on the program developers to incorporate Eucon support into there DAWs, plugins, etc.
Old 16th November 2010
  #6
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joris de man's Avatar
Pretty much what has been mentioned here, but another nice thing is that eucon can also operate cross platform over ethernet.

Meaning for example, I can control Nuendo on my PC via Eucon running on a Mac, and eucon can switch between multiple daw's seamlessly on the fly.

I know of a few engineers who prefer recording on PT but mixing on Nuendo, and will control both Daw's using one general euphonix controller.

Alan Meyerson is one of them:
Euphonix :: Client Profile - Alan Meyerson
Old 16th November 2010
  #7
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BradLyons's Avatar
 

Actually....... HUI was originally developed as a joint venture between MACKIE and DIGIDESIGN back in the 1990's. Originally, HUI stood for more than just HUMAN USER INTERFACE, it was an actual control surface:

http://www.mackie.com/products/hui/images/HUIOver.gif

Originally this single unit (which had no expansion modules) cost more than a 32-fader Mackie Control system. HUI is essentially was basic control over ProTools, but in that day that was a great deal to have! Over time, the HUI protocol came to be a standard and still is.

EuCON stands for EUPHONIX CONTROL and is basically a background process that's running to control various applications. It is very deep and VERY powerful. In ProTools---EuCon still runs but it's a form of HUI so to speak. In other words they bypass much of the downfalls of the HUI protocol by using their own language, however the issues are still limited to what Digi/Avid would allow. Now that Avid bought Euphonix, full EuCon control is built-in...just as Ethernet control is built-in for the Control24/C24, ICON, etc. This is VERY powerful, especially when looking at the Artist series with at least an MC CONTROL and an MC MIX, you now have a "baby Icon" so to speak. EuCon support to those using either the MC, the Artist Series, the System5, or any other Euphonix console---IS a big deal to ProTools users.
Old 16th November 2010
  #8
Gear Head
 

Interesting. Thanks a lot guys... I think I get it better. However, HUI still allows for more than faders and panpots. My lowly Alphatrack uses HUI, and I can control many plugin parameters from it, send levels, turning plugs on and off, selections, etc. Also, SSL's videos of the Nucleus make it look as a very capable machine. I'm sure they had to do some custom coding to get it to work the way it currently does with Logic, but I'm wondering if they'd be able to adopt EUCON (or any other 3rd-party, for that matter) in the future...

I guess I'll wait and see (not holding my breath though)...
Old 16th November 2010
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toonman View Post
My lowly Alphatrack uses HUI, and I can control many plugin parameters from it
MANY----not ALL ;-)
Old 16th November 2010
  #10
Gear Maniac
 

There's a good overview here:

http://connect.euphonix.com/document...aper_oct06.pdf

Certainly the fact that it follows application focus and supports multiple applications (and workstations) appears to distinguish it from other control protocols.
Old 16th November 2010
  #11
Gear Maniac
 

Is there a way to make it not to follow application focus ? I can of course change the focus manually but I would love to have it focus on the audio program that I'm using.
Old 16th November 2010
  #12
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by yore View Post
Is there a way to make it not to follow application focus ? I can of course change the focus manually but I would love to have it focus on the audio program that I'm using.
yes - you can lock the application focus via the eucon settings dialog, i don't know the actual name of the setting as i'm currently not at home, but i can have a look at it later on!

EDIT: you can do so on the 'Assign' tab of the EuControl-Settings dialog ('Lock to application'-setting)

Last edited by Fireflake; 16th November 2010 at 12:57 PM.. Reason: added description for setting
Old 16th November 2010
  #13
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Muser's Avatar
I think the HUI protocol can do way more than many DAW makers ever really exploited out of it.

The Mackie C4 even has a sysex library of synths and samplers etc, which you can expolit to build your own custom interface.
it's in their C4 application.

Also, Logic recently cleaned up the way Logics own internal plug-ins operate with the HUI protocol. and also the way, you can now fully customize the way those plug-ins parameters can be flexibly re-ascribed.

why Logic took so long to do this, I have no idea.

I think one important thing about Eucon is that the access to the programmability is in a control panel.
it's also a pretty intelligible process to do this and access it. you can also create custom graphic images for the touch screen on structure the whole sub-hierarchy. a little like a sub folder system in a computer OS.

you can effectively create a customized touch screen layout with sub pages. along with your own custom icons.

This is the impression I got at least. I sort of wish they would just make a small unit with a touch screen and a fader and knob.

saying all that though, a Mackie C4 is still hard to beat for many applications.
Old 16th November 2010
  #14
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireflake View Post
yes - you can lock the application focus via the eucon settings dialog, i don't know the actual name of the setting as i'm currently not at home, but i can have a look at it later on!

EDIT: you can do so on the 'Assign' tab of the EuControl-Settings dialog ('Lock to application'-setting)
Thanks :-) this is great.. it was the feature I was missing from my 01X days.
Old 16th November 2010
  #15
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BradLyons's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
I think the HUI protocol can do way more than many DAW makers ever really exploited out of it.

The Mackie C4 even has a sysex library of synths and samplers etc, which you can expolit to build your own custom interface.
it's in their C4 application.

Also, Logic recently cleaned up the way Logics own internal plug-ins operate with the HUI protocol. and also the way, you can now fully customize the way those plug-ins parameters can be flexibly re-ascribed.

why Logic took so long to do this, I have no idea.

I think one important thing about Eucon is that the access to the programmability is in a control panel.
it's also a pretty intelligible process to do this and access it. you can also create custom graphic images for the touch screen on structure the whole sub-hierarchy. a little like a sub folder system in a computer OS.

you can effectively create a customized touch screen layout with sub pages. along with your own custom icons.

This is the impression I got at least. I sort of wish they would just make a small unit with a touch screen and a fader and knob.

saying all that though, a Mackie C4 is still hard to beat for many applications.
What you're saying is true---HUI is actually more powerful than just 128-steps of MIDI, the resolution is far greater (when speaking about faders). When talking HUI in general it's more like GENERAL MIDI---this was developed years ago and has been built-upon, however HUI does go much deeper than General MIDI in terms of feature-richness, but my point is that it ultimately comes down to the software developers and how deep they want to go in. The downside though is that there is so much software that have extensive control that it's hard to take a general purpose control protocol and get the full capability out of it across the board. This is where things such as EuCON are huge---they write their own control language to work with the applications rather than make it work with what already exists.
Old 16th November 2010
  #16
cut
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cut's Avatar
 

Upgrading from PT 8 with HUI to PT with EuCon

A little pitfall that just cost me an hour. If you have been using Eucon in HUI mode, you need to open that little Euphonix MC app in your "System Preferences" window and delete the worksurface that is using HUI on channels 1-4, otherwise you will have intermittent behavior that will eventually lead to a useless worksurface. If you remember back to setting for HUI, you had to drag the Pro Tools icon onto this window to enable HUI control, this HAS TO BE UNDONE for proper integration of EuCon in PT 9. I can not find anywhere in any PDF where this is pointed out.
Old 16th November 2010
  #17
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jamwerks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
Also, Logic recently cleaned up the way Logics own internal plug-ins operate with the HUI protocol.
Does Logic even use HUI, or rather it's own Mackie-Logic control protocol?

I also wonder if EUCON is another "language" all together, or just another way to communicate with HUI?
Old 16th November 2010
  #18
Gear Guru
 
Muser's Avatar
Re: BradLyons
Quote:
This is where things such as EuCON are huge---they write their own control language to work with the applications rather than make it work with what already exists.
This may be true, but I have no clear information about what that entails. unless EUCON has some specific way of getting past Logics Automation system setting, I'm not exactly sure what specific advantage their control language might have over the advantages I outlined. which are technically the only ones I know currently. I'm sure there will be others as they have been doing this kind of thing for a long time and at a high level.


Re: Jamwerks
Quote:
Does Logic even use HUI, or rather it's own Mackie-Logic control protocol?
I also wonder if EUCON is another "language" all together, or just another way to communicate with HUI?
Logic certainly does use HUI Jamwerks and to a big degree. I'm not actually sure if EUCON uses a HUI mode for Logic. They may have created their own control surface plug-in for Logic but I doubt it will exploit anything in Logic that HUI can't already exploit. though it may well allow the user a better and more customizable experience. as well as being able to switch between different apps.
Old 16th November 2010
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
Logic certainly does use HUI Jamwerks and to a big degree.
Are you sure? I just sold my 24 channels of Mackie Control Pro, and I remember there being different "modes" that that can be chosen on startup: MC, HUI, and I think a third also.
Old 16th November 2010
  #20
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Muser's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post
Are you sure? I just sold my 24 channels of Mackie Control Pro, and I remember there being different "modes" that that can be chosen on startup: MC, HUI, and I think a third also.
Logic control is HUI too I believe. Mackie originally made the Logic control for Logic and then released their own (after) some time.. which they called Mackie control universal. Logic control only originally worked with Logic.. but then I think after Mackies MCU you could get an update which made it the same as Mackies MCU.

HUI is just the protocol they both used to talk to Logic. even Novation Automap has a HUI mode. and actually, it's really very good too. lots of control surfaces used the HUI protocol. even the Behringer BC series.

HUI originally was the protocol used for the Mackie HUI control surface.

I'd be surprised if a Mackie control for Logic control sent any other protocol other than HUI.

in Logics control surface preferences, you can install which ever control surface protocol description you want there,
to use with Logic and whatever hardware. as long as it's supported. if you right click on your Logic application icon
in you applications folder and select, show package contents, you can go into Logics hidden sub-folder system and look int the control surface plug-ins as well. these are the control surface plug-in that different manufacturers put together. and apple then put them into their update installers, for installation.

don't mess with anything in there though.
Old 18th November 2010
  #21
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post
Are you sure? I just sold my 24 channels of Mackie Control Pro, and I remember there being different "modes" that that can be chosen on startup: MC, HUI, and I think a third also.

Correct, the currently sold Mackie Control Universal can be booted up into any of three different modes, while powering up the unit:

HUI Mode: This mode allows the Mackie Control to emulate the original HUI unit, using the HUI data protocol and allowing the unit to work with Pro Tools.

Logic Mode: This mode allows the Mackie Control to emulate the original "Logic Control" unit, using the logic control protocol and allowing the unit to work with Logic, Soundtrack, and Finalcut Pro.

Mackie Control Mode: HUI Mode: In this mode the unit uses the "Mackie Control" protocol, which is meant to work with pretty much all of the other DAWs.

Good overview of all the compatible DAWs at this link:
Mackie - Mackie Control Universal Pro FAQ


Thanks!
Old 18th November 2010
  #22
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toonman View Post
Interesting. Thanks a lot guys... I think I get it better. However, HUI still allows for more than faders and panpots. My lowly Alphatrack uses HUI, and I can control many plugin parameters from it, send levels, turning plugs on and off, selections, etc. Also, SSL's videos of the Nucleus make it look as a very capable machine. I'm sure they had to do some custom coding to get it to work the way it currently does with Logic, but I'm wondering if they'd be able to adopt EUCON (or any other 3rd-party, for that matter) in the future......
All the hype? Mostly it is a matter of great marketing coupled with cool design. Before the product was available they were taking full and double page ads in all the trades, and the whole internet lit up with people wanting one before they even knew what it could or could not do. Great looking piece of kit.

To step past the hype for a moment, the underlying software could hopefully give us all a lot more control than we currently enjoy with the Mackie format. Yes, that format has been maligned and can do more than it usually does, but that is not the point. The comparison with GM is apt. GM pretty much sucked when it was released and we never adopted it, but it standardized a lot of things and allowed a lot of people to get into the game who had previously been excluded.

Tascam offered a similar hope with the US 2400, but expected the software companies to write the support. If you examine the product (huge and clunky as it is) it had some nice capabilities, which were largely ignored by those who wrote support. (It also lacked a few things I think are important, and it was just so huge...) It is a similar story with Kevin's Mixed Logic. Support is everything.

The old CM MotorMix products did more, better than the Mackie. But i think that they were a little to early to market and got hurt by being there too soon. You can still get their product line directly, google CM Motormix to find their site.

But back to Eucon... they were derailed from widespread support (or some might say, focused...) by an influx of dedicated development cash. Now there has been a change in the situation and everyone seems to expect the product to support their choice of software soon. I remain skeptical. But I always suggest that nobody buy Version 1.0 of anything, anyway. If it works today, it will work just as well tomorrow. No sense in being the first guy across the prairie, he's the one with all the arrows in his back.

Controllers are always a big subject. I suggest that you can accomplish many of these tasks and quite a few others for far less cash in the DAW world using one of the XKeys products and a trackball. Dedicated keys to replace multiple keystrokes and/or mouse moves speeds up the workflow significantly, and is a key component to time savings and ergonomics that most never consider.

What everyone seems to want though, is a fader pack. I've not found a digital fader to feel like an analog fader. You can get used to them, but it is not the same... kinda like a Vegi-burger. If you have to get used to it, why not just get used to mixing ITB?
Old 18th November 2010
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post

The old CM MotorMix products did more, better than the Mackie. But i think that they were a little to early to market and got hurt by being there too soon.
Ahhhh that was a great product and you're right, it was ahead of its time. BUT the biggest issue it had was being incredibly LOUD!!!
Old 18th November 2010
  #24
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Eucon - DEEP integration with Logic and the plugs. When I open Altiverb for example - there are endless parameters assigned. I have two McMixes - I just bank across the rotary knobs in banks of 8. The McTransport is awesome - so much more than a jog wheel. A few bugs here ad there. Now that Avid has picked it up - I bet the dream controller we are all screaming for is in the oven right now ....I hope so...and hope AVID doesn't rope it off as PT only.

Can't speak to HUI
cdlt
Old 19th November 2010
  #25
Gear Guru
 
Muser's Avatar
When I say, Logic cleaned up the way it worked with the HUI protocol. I mean,
the significance of this is what it now entails in regards to any 3rd party manufacturer of control surface interfaces.

Logic does work with HUI and to a high degree.
if an MCU can be booted in HUI mode then, with Logics recent attention to it's handling of HUI protocol, that mode may likely be way more powerful. it depends on if there is application software for the MCU units. and to what degree and depth that software integrates.
The Mackie C4 application looks very powerful for example.

EUCON probably has an advantage in its intelligibility and touch screen graphics integration imo.

as an example regarding Logic and HUI. now even something like a Novation Automap system suddenly becomes totally transformed in relation to controlling Logics own plug-ins.

previously this was a complete non starter. simply because the DAW manufacturer hadn't paid attention to it (or) they decided not to, in order to leverage their own control surface interests.

HUI was a joint open communications protocol created Jointly by Mackie and DigiDesign. MCU & Logic Control, were as far as I know, proprietary.

cleaning up the way the DAW itself handles the protocol and what that means, is interesting to see.

With Automap pro, you can move and remap all the plug-ins in Logic as easy as it comes. you can also possibly range them down to very fine levels. Novation must be poised to launch a professional surface themselves imo.

The test of a good control system is usually to be found at the point where you want to fully customize the system. I'm sure EUCON would be good at this but I wouldn't properly know until I understood exactly how that process flows.

Maybe PT hasn't paid the same attention to cleaning up PT's HUI integration as Logic seems to have done.
That wouldn't surprise me, hence their purchase of Euphonix.

Old 14th December 2018
  #26
Gear Head
Im looking for a daw controller with a bypass buttpn, for automating it on and off at specific points, or using macro to link what i want buttons to do in logic pro.
Could anyone help me with daw fader controllers suitable? So far I like the Icon Platform m+, I think the Avid Artist Series Mix 8 fader is too expensive for the lack of buttons it has..
Thanks
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