This is a bit like listening to almost any electric guitar from 1970-1990 and saying CURSE YOU LINK WRAY! AND YOUR 'RUMBLE'! THEY'RE ALL TAKING THEIR ORDERS FROM YOU!

heh

Okay, so fine, you can splat the DAC and get a chirp of stuff over 22K out of it at will. That's not so hard. FG-X users get that constantly! heh

The point is, this is ONE teeny element in an overall process of making current mixes that convey groove and music and sound while operating at levels that don't totally drop out compared to everything else.

It's not all about total loudness or Iggy's Raw Power remaster would be billboard #1 forever.

It's not all about the chirps of DAC crackle, that actually gets you relatively little extra level because by definition it is a clip level very near where we're already operating. There's plenty of sounds where you're better off not having that frizz because it'll distract from something else you want to command attention. There are sounds that are just fine with it. Arguably, some hats and cymbals are fine with it provided they're meant to be tizzy as hell. Snares like that Gorillaz snare are also fair game. Tail of a kick drum? A lot more useless to clip the DAC with. The little splat of distortion gains you nothing and isn't even synced to the beat.

It's all about balancing stuff out and what works- it's not about formulas and silver bullets, EVEN NC-17. That's going to help some of the guys get more real impact out of their stuff. Some of them certainly are going to throw an additional stage of digital gain and hard clip it at -0.02db allowing their stuff to still clip the DAC without being rejected by the glass mastering plant, yeah, but they're probably also going to go into NC-17 with a compressor, or even FG-X (FG-X into NC-17? The intersample clips go away. Then you can boost MORE to put the ones you want, back again...)

Or so I hear.

Remember- there is no Mastering Cabal. (tm)

Or if there was, they certainly aren't talking to you, so how would you know their secrets? You guess wrong heh

I don't know if or how often Mr. Lord-Alge clips his master bus, but I do know he does not use a limiter on it.

I also know he gets paid more than any mixer in history.

And I know that top ME's will clip previously unclipped masters you send them in that genre, even without instructions to do so.

The likelihood of the ME doing the clipping is a lot greater than that of the mixers. Some top mixers work fairly cold...-6dBFs peak.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Right < I agree. Some use this technique on the regular or in combination with other techniques that result in an adverse effect, but any mixer who has sweated over the mixes for months will pick up on it right away and either accept it or reject it.


The law of averages probably is on your side in that regard, but the mixer is not immune.

And now with ButterComp out, doing all the bundled FG-X things is no longer 1/5 the price (well, less than)

Instead, it's $50+$60 / $300 (not $250) which is um...

1/2.72727272727272th the price, or call it 'not really a third of the price dammit' heh

I promise to say any sonic problem is your mix's fault, but I cannot make you wait for bug fixes because there haven't been any bugs, apart from my horrible, recalcitrant competitive attitude heh

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/new-p...-plugin-d.html

And some people with a sense of humor about being entertained by manufacturer mudwrestling would call that a feature...

just picked up NC-17 last night. it's totally awesome. i was between it and ButterComp, and found NC-17 more useful. I have plenty of compressors. You can slam the crap out of this thing and the bass DOES NOT GO AWAY.

Yup, that was the whole point it's different from FG-X in that FG-X can add even more to the bass, but stuff that wasn't in the mix. Shows up on null tests. NC-17 hangs onto stuff like bass at elevated levels, but it's really tightly linked to what was in the mix already (which also shows up on null tests)

i don't mind the smearing effect either, i find it quite pleasing for a lot of my music. I hate thin, crispy cymbals (tik tik tik goes the hi hat). I sometimes mixdown to VHS or even cassette to rein in the top end, and the NC17 has a similar effect to my ears when pushed hard.

I like Adclip the most... If you've done your homework in the mix, Adclip delivers. Nc-17 aint bad though but messes with the balances a little...

Best,

Jamzone

Holy ****! NC-17 even works on surround mixes! I had a deadline to meet and just pulled it up and bing! 5.1

Damn straight. There's a reason I like AU. Not ALL my stuff does- stuff labeled 'stereo' is two channel- but anything that CAN do mono can ALSO do 5.1.

It will apply the same processing to every channel you feed it- that comes automatically with the AU, it's called 'N to N'. If they start doing 23 channel stuff my plugins will already support it... ALL of them other than stereo-only

Cris you're right, i always guide myself through that meter. I work with xenon and it does have an ISP secure system, it's cool! like you said most people don't test their master with these meters. I sincerely hope that you would considered that option... an on/off option for example... besides when the master goes to radio it can become a problem.

I'll definitely demo the NC 17 but i must tell you, that was a concern!

thank you for your time.

Well, the meter isn't actually mine and it eats about 500 times the CPU of NC-17... but it IS really cool. I love that SSL put it out for free

...back to work...

hey there chris,

yeah the room compressor from ssl is also great and is free...but probably i didn't made myself clear, i was suggesting the incorporation of an intersample peak on the nc-17 (on/off button).

just one question: how much clean is the plugin before very loud levels? i know that is a subjective question but like one guy said the real goal (core business) is clipping with minimal distortion.

all the best

Depends. The thing about NC-17 is that the distortion it produces stays pretty benign, sort of like what you get out of the more primitive 'analog sound saturation' plugins.

However, rather than just distorting, it's able to convert that energy into added loudness- and continues to do so the more level you add. So basically, if you don't slam it it can be pretty clean- if you hit it hard, it stays big (the key feature) but takes on a saturated roaring quality- and the more ridiculously hard you hit it, the more it blurs and softens.

The difference between that and ordinary clipping/limiting is, NC-17 generates bass and midrange out of the distortion, so it behaves like you can go WAY louder (just not 'cleanly').

The difference between that and other next-gen stuff like FG-X is, NC-17 isn't brittle. Rather than being 'clean' to a point and then generating artifacts, it's always generating traces of artifacts, and there's a smooth progression of increasing coloration as you push levels harder and harder. It was designed and tuned to hold together at impossibly ridiculous levels- where other stuff is meant for +6 or +8 db, NC-17 was tuned at levels like +30 db, the concept being 'how much of the sound can still be recognizable this way'?

Bear in mind that all clipping, limiting and next-generation loudenating is distortion. There's always distortion, it's just whether you like the flavor you're getting- and whether you have familiarized yourself with it and recognize it. (edit) Some people with rival plugin products will tell you there's absolutely no distortion, yet the plugin in question synthesizes obvious highs and subs that aren't in the original mix at all, but have an average tonal weight similar to what you'd lose in peak limiting. I'm more open about NC-17's distorted qualities, partly because it'll be more forgiving for those who push all these tools into obvious CRUNCH

As for rolling my own intersample peak meter- I'd rather not, the SSL one is out there to be used- plus, I have not had one single bug report from any user since release. A bit chunk of this is the use of generic interface, and not attempting to draw graphics and meters. I like the fact that the people using NC-17 are able to use it without obstacles...

I understand, thank you for your clarification

what can we expect from a song mastered by this or other plugin of the same type, for example on the radio? like you said "limiting and next-generation loudenating is distortion". mastering for the radio is always a problem and with the increase of the distortion even more. in your opinion will this kind of plugin increase this problem?

Do you also consider NC-17 a next generation plugin (like FG-X)?

once again thank you for your time.

ANYTHING on the radio using these tools will suffer. Radio already compresses and clips as far as you can go, with very good tools by names like Orban. I've heard some spectacular demos- some of the clippers out there in broadcast are astonishingly clever. Nether me or Fabrice are really breaking new ground there, as it turns out.

Hell yes NC-17 is next generation, because I classify next generation as 'absorbing and redistributing energy rather than just clipping or limiting it'. I've been doing that since ShortBuss, and before that my peak limiter, years ago... the radio processing is doing it in clippers, where NC-17 is doing it on a gentler saturation curve, and FG-X seems to be doing it on some sort of limiter.

It's all about what you do with the stored energy- NC-17 throws in energy very tightly linked to the source material, null tests show wide-band blats of energy that would otherwise be lost to limiting. The clippers work on pre-emphasized audio, they're not going to be doing much with bass. FG-X in a null test shows that it throws in treble energy and very intensely shaped bass energy, producing sounds much like Slate's processed drum sounds. This blends really well if your sounds already resemble that, it's clever. I don't like my sounds to be like that, so NC-17 works better for me...

If we're talking 'next generation' strictly in terms of FG-X, I consider the litmus test there to be the sub-lows. No limiter or clipper can retain the scale of a mix at really elevated levels, because sub-bass swings require the most headroom- so that's first to go. FG-X hangs onto the extreme lows, and NC-17 hangs onto the extreme lows. Mine's more punchy, theirs is more rumbly, but for the time being I don't think there's another option out there to do that.

Anybody wanting to code one, get busy- what you have to do is put in your limiting/clipping/whatever, then track the OVERSHOOT by subtracting the limited version from the original at the elevated level. That gives you the energy you lost, but it's gonna be sputtery and difficult to work with- you probably want to average it out over time, and you want to re-introduce that energy again. I'm just putting it in using synthesis of second harmonic with amplitude modulation- a Chebyshev filter will give you access to do that. You can do second for a DC offset (that's where I get the subs enhancement- DC offset within the available swing of the output waveform) or third harmonic for a straight-up amplitude boost. Using higher harmonics will give you brighter artifacts- I didn't like that, but if you do, go to it

It's kind of like reverb designs- everybody knows what a comb and allpass are, but the ways to combine and manipulate them give rise to completely original sounds. I look forward to hearing the next energy-storing loudenator, especially ones that can handle bass. It might be fun to revise ADClip just to include some extreme subs reinforcement, because otherwise it's a good sound... it still won't go as loud as NC-17, but I can retain the extra cleanness it has, while still doing that

I've recently bought this plug...Although it's a very particular plug I'm facing difficulties to put it "clean" at respectable volumes... I'm afraid that with Xenon I can reach a more clean and loud master...although it is possible that Xenon pronounces the highs a little bit.
NC-17 got a warm kind of sound..."increases" the energy on bass and middle and rolls off a little bit on the highs, I like this kind of sound but sometimes it can be a little muddy for a specific mix/master... and you cannot push it besides a specific point (thin line) because it starts to distort (or rooar like Mr.Chris says) and the image seems to fatigue a little. With xenon i can go a little further with lesser artifacts.
As I see it NC-17 is not in the transparent type limiter/loudenator category. I'm having serious doubts if NC-17 can be applied on a mastering task...though It can be a tool for cosmetic/aesthetics mix jobs.

Finally, I've made a test subtracting two mp3 (96k) files versus the original waves and the NC-17 behaved better than Xenon...

all the best.

Well, null tests WILL tell you things

The thing about NC-17 is that it's not brittle. There's a lot of people out there pushing clippers and limiters and processors way too far- there's a reason I called it an 'obscenely loudenator' rather than 'perfect untouched sound at superhigh levels'- something that isn't actually possible.

NC-17 produces an increasingly 'dirty' sound that is like, but not THAT much like, analog overdrive. It's a little weird for just 'overdrive'. But the trick is, it allows for more level within a given output swing, and it's set up to cope gracefully when things get really stupid.

So when somebody out there throws 18 db of gain on their track- and basically nobody can do that without damage, it's wrong to do- with NC-17 you get huge roaring grunge, rather than really small hard clippedness, or shattered twisted wreckage

I'm sorry you're not getting the level of 'clean undistorted gain' you'd like- I'm still exploring avenues for that style of loudenation though it wouldn't be on the NC-17 upgrade/crossgrade path. I must say that if I do come up with anything it will have all the disadvantages of ALL processors that try to hang on to a super clean sound- namely a max limit beyond which things RAPIDLY go to crap, and a vulnerability to revealing artifacts on various source material that makes the plugin unusuable on certain tracks.

One thing about NC-17 is that it's very predictable. It's got that sound, much like hitting some half-good tape deck at 15 ips (only a bit weird), and there are no surprises. If you know how it sounds and you're okay with it, nothing startling will happen, no matter what DAW you're on, what you do, what music is playing, what level of obscene excessive loudness you're after- it'll perform as expected.

That's not the sort of dramatic experience that gets you lots of forum post bounces, but on the other hand users are happy

I should clarify that- Digital Performer's put out an update where they've apparently broken the sliders for AUs (or just generic AUs?). I've heard about this, but my code doesn't draw the sliders, it's just told what they are, so I'm powerless to debug that one. Those users are not happy, but I hope their DAW maker helps them out and makes them happy again

I really liked the FG-X and planned on getting it at some point, but I just demoed this, and this is ridiculous for the price. Love the sound and the levels. Great Job, Chris!

Have you tried NC-17 into xenon - I did and I think it is a lovely combination in moderation.

yes, sure...I've tried with a lot of things (genders) and in different situations... still, a little bit grainy for me...but also sweet and punchy (vintage/mellow). a great plugin thought

Thanks my theory is, not everything gets to be everything, so do stuff that is specific and really gets a particular sound right. I think NC-17 is a good example of that.

By the way, though I haven't got a place to announce it on Gearslutz because there's no location for revisions, I have a new toy coming up well, six...

I recently got a pile of Vox Amplugs, which I'm delighted with- what nifty things- but of course can't really use them direct without them sounding kind of Rockman-y. Which is not wholly a bad thing, but I had another plan. Years ago I did some guitar cab plugs, along the same lines of the original Character plugs, and thought I'd see what it was like to do them over again with a sound overhaul and antialiasing.

I'm pretty happy with the result

http://www.jinxtigr.com/f/CabsDemo.dmg

Chris, I'm a big fan of your plugs, but these cab sims aren't usable, imo. They might work with the little Vox thingies, but they already have a built in cab emulation circuit, which shape the sound quite a bit. However, I ran a real amp through your plugins and the sound was super fizzy - almost like going direct.

I took the signal from one of the speaker outs (the other one is connected to a real cab for the necessary load) and that's exactly what you'd feed a real cab, so your plugins should be able to deal with this just fine, but they don't. Your previous cabs were better in this regard, but didn't have the low end rumble of the real deal. IMO, your best one was your free Princeton cab and that's why I bought FireCab.

I must have tried every software and hardware speaker emulation and so far, nothing beats the Redwirez impulses, although I've never tried Nebula. When you explained how Busscolors works, I was immediately thinking of a speaker emulation plug - using a quiet and a loud IR and have your mad program skills, to make it more dynamic than static convolution, you know?

Hm, that's too bad. That is what I did with the new Cabs (which otherwise are not any different from the first versions) but if they're not working for you off a speaker out, they're not- I know I was running them off Amplugs, and I know Amplugs do a lot of the heavy lifting though certainly not all of it- there is a big difference between raw Amplug and what the Cabs give it.

For what it's worth, the page at Airwindows about Cabs specifically references a bunch of Amplugs, and Rockmans might also be suitable drivers- if you think it would be a good idea, I can go in and add something to the effect of 'not intended to work the same way off raw amp output, even through a power soak'. Think I should?

Sometimes I work for days and weeks and it just goes off weird and I have to shrug and get busy on the next thing. Apologies for not getting it totally right for your purposes

Just bought this yesterday...

Felt compelled to re-read other peoples findings with it.. i bought it after trying the demo on a mix i was working on...

However i didn't strap it on the stereo bus, i used it on the drum bus... and i gotta tell you it is GREAT!

I know there was all kinda drama and people probably wonder if a plain interfaced small time dudes plugin can cut it in action?

But let me assure you this thing is REALLY useful.... this is gonna be a fantastic addition to the arsenal... a true hidden gem!

This mix got approved with flying colours today by the biggest music company in the world! (probably) Def one of the big three...

They said "it sounds HUGE in a REALLY GOOD way!"

Some of that is due to Chris's lil old generic GUI plugin...

I should keep it quiet, should keep the magic weapon a trade secret! lol

But i seriously urge anyone to give this a go... i felt it wasn't all that for the first 15 mins of playing with the demo.... then suddenly it made sense.. i could hear what it was doing.... i used it in conjunction with inflator just before it...

Really good results.... today i am a happier man.... AND it's my birthday...

Thanx Chris..



Zz.

Happy birthday

And I'm not a small time guy. Honest. I promise

Small time guys don't give lifetime support on their products. Small time guys get sucked in to overpromising and trying to get the big popularity by being all things to all people.

I'm a niche guy. There's a difference. I know EXACTLY what I'm out to do, and I do it. Well, not when I'm getting sucked into internet drama, and for that I apologize- I did stop. But in my work, I do specific 'silver bullet', 'secret weapon' plugins, often ones that don't support a lot of fiddling. I let people take good performances, in the box, and totally get the most out of them.

People like you, in fact

If you want another experience like that, try this: take Density2 (the freebie): http://www.jinxtigr.com/f/Density2.dmg
...and put it on a sound, crank it up some until it's audibly distorting, and use the highpass to shape the distortion until it's sheer midrange rowdy. Boost the gain a little more if it cleaned up too much. Then, use the dry/wet to go to nearly all dry (which will have bass again, notice) and then sneak in some of the wet for a mids/highs bump. Try it on a bass, particularly against distorted guitars. Got secret weapon?

I have enough going on that I can GIVE stuff like that away.

Thanks for letting me help you have a happier birthday