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Siemens W295b For Nebula!!! Multi-Ef­fects Plugins
Old 26th March 2010
  #1
Gear Nut
 

Siemens W295b For Nebula!!!

CDSoundMaster is pleased to present the
Siemens W295b
for Nebula 3 Commercial!!!

"Siemens W295B EQ For Nebula" consists of 20 programs, all sampled at 96kHz and tested to retain accuracy at 44.1kHz and 48kHz sample rates with the latest version of Nebula3 Pro. There are multiple programs for each band, combined high/low shelf, and fully interpolated frequency and gain, along with a complete 'console' preamp collection at no extra charge!

The Siemens W295B is a vintage, early 1970's, West German, discrete solid state 3-band eq with beautiful sounding transformer inputs and outputs and the very special Sitral transistor. The unit used for this release is all original in excellent working condition.

The W295B has a High Shelf eq, and Low Shelf eq, both with +/-15dB in 3dB increments. It also has a Middle Range bell eq with fixed frequencies of 700Hz, 1kHz, 1.5kHz, 2.3kHz, 3.5kHz, and 5.6kHz with +/- 8dB in 2dB increments.

For more details and to order your W295b, please go to:
CDSoundMaster.com

Download the free, fully functional, reduced feature demo here:
http://cdsoundmaster.com/W295BFREE.zip

Thanks and God Bless You.
Sincerely,
Michael
Old 26th March 2010
  #2
Lives for gear
hi Michael, which converter and cable did you use for sampling ?
Old 26th March 2010
  #3
Lives for gear
 

Another cool EQ sampled! You are on a roll Michael! heh

Only thing I'm a bit worried about is your constant use of 96kHz sampling and then relying on Nebulas own internal downsampling. One of the reasons I don't upsample for mastering is because I feel the up/down sampling, especially to 96kHz (!! 88.2 would be better) and back degrades audio a bit too much, even with tools like Voxengo R8brain pro. Besides some ITB EQs and even compressors have become so good that rarely do they benefit from the up-sampling, unless it helps to bypass their own internal up-sampling. Of course if one is using only ITB processing it is still most likely beneficial to run at higher sampling rates but wouldn't 88.2kHz be better then as it's exactly double the rate from 44.1?

I'd love to get some of your programs natively sampled at 44.1kHz instead of 96 or have you asked your users how large a % actually run their projects at 96kHz or is there some other technical detail I am unaware (like, does the sine sweep test signal from Nebula work better when it's at 96kHz?).

Cheers!
bManic
Old 26th March 2010
  #4
Gear Nut
 

Hi there!
To answer both: Mytek w/ Belden and Mogami and Apogee WydeEye.

Actually, I've been extremely pleased with the rate conversion for the eq's and other programs. There were issues many months back that needed to be resolved to get the actual waveforms accurate at different rates, and that was within the engine. Once that was settled, everything converted fine. As far as the actual rate conversion, more of what you are asking about- I am very happy with the resolution downward. Like you are talking about, we used to be much more concerned about the math from double rate versus a non-related equation (96 to 48 instead of 96 to 44.1). But, I don't feel that there is a quality loss either from the math or the convert quality. Moreso, I think we are at that quality point where the give and take is simpy different. What I mean by this, and it is just my experience from testing things, is that doing things directly at 44.1 for use at 44.1 relies on the filtering at the analog converter input, which as you know has been excellent since at least 2005-ish. Some designs earlier than that were just as good, some (Pacific Micro) bettter than most today. When we move up to 48, that extra 2kHz makes a tremendous difference for tracking and mixdown, because that extra harmonic is fundamental in music. But, for things like a Millennia and GML that do a ton of magic above 20kHz, even 48 isn't giving us enough extra at the top to have the full affect at lower frequencies. 88.2 would be fine, but honestly I know one customer that is definitely using 88.2, and can't count the # of requests for 96.
The loss/lack of accuracy of 44.1 direct in through excellent filtering is one kind of issue, that sounds basically perfect up to the cut-off frequency, and the resolution down from 96 to 44.1, 48, or 88.2 is the other loss/inaccuracy that has different results but sounds excellent, but also captures the extra harmonic and frequency content. This to me makes 96 worth it. We get double the bandwidth for something like a wide bell centered at 25kHz. At 88.2 we wouldn't see the peak, but at 96kHz we get most of the analog shape.
What happens, is that if a track is recorded at 96 and rendered in Neb at 96, and the program was recorded at 96, we get the best of all things. If this is later folded down to 48 or 44.1, there will always be extra information that is folded down on top of the real frequencies in addition to what would have been there before. It doesn't mask, and it doesn't throw the high spectrum out- it finds sympathetic frequencies within the band to place these extra bits of info. To our ears, it pretty much sounds the same, but digitally it is no longer a 1:1. So, at the same lower sample rate- we can have 1:1 but only up to the filter point, and at highest rate we get better resolution picture of almost everything, but if resolved down to lower rate, new frequency content will exist on top of what was there before, which technically doesn't matter a whole bunch. Mostly, it is a nice sounding benefit and our ears like the inaccurate addition. The only thing I can see as any kind of problem with it at all, since the quality sounds as perfect to me as I could imagine, is if someone does too much non-linear stuff to a 44.1 using tons and tons and tons of 96, expecting a flat response instead of a manipulated response, in which case they should use some kind of visualization that will tell them if they are entering into intersample distortion.
The other issue is how the stereo field folds down. Neb doesn't do what I have seen some coded emu's do (even the REALLy good ones that start with a 'U'), which is upsample but not perfectly relay the spectrum to the right place in polarity and/or extreme left/right. I am glad I don't know the reason for that, but the result can be that your frequency changes were attempting to emulate static things that happen with the gear emulated, and in practice the result doesn't place all frequencies in the right l/r placement. Whatever the reason, gladly Neb doesn't do any of that bad stuff which to me ears are much more harmful than any kind of rate change.

The other thing you are smart to ask about, partly bc of your excellent BManic samplings, is how the waveforms work at 96 versus lower frequencies. The answer from my experience has been test, test, test, compare, test. Nothing can be taken for granted, and not all things result as expected. I've learned to study waves as peaks, rms, peak hold, average power, and more importantly cycles. Since each tone is the result of lots and lots of cycles, the long low waves react differently and with higher resolution at 96, where the high frequencies react with higher resolution but flatter, because they are small and easier to draw. At 96, the good thing is that there is more info being captured for frequencies and complex overtone harmonics. The bad news, is that there is more info... More info means learning how all of that extra info affects other stuff. It also means watching for the non-linearities that are not being sampled.
So, it all works out. I think for eq's there are benefits to capturing more of the picture. I was never disatisfied with a single 44.1 Neb program, and still use many with a 96 filter I made to keep higher frequencies flat as a pass through. But, for everything new there is simply no negative trade-off from 96 other than longer load time for resampling lower rates.
Plus, it is cool for something like the W295b where it is classically known for the slight drop from 15kHz to 20kHz, but to not only see a graph of the drop from 22kHz to 40kHz, but for that to actually exist in the program, is pretty cool! It makes me think back to the graph included with a new microphone, and always thinking 'hmmm, I wonder what the slope is like above 20kHz?' Now we actually have real sampled gear that can process up there! Wow!
Old 26th March 2010
  #5
Lives for gear
 

i can buy the real thing on german ebay for 100€ more. no offense. just saying.... still, its a cool eq.
Old 26th March 2010
  #6
Lives for gear
 
Arksun's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by salomonander View Post
i can buy the real thing on german ebay for 100€ more. no offense. just saying.... still, its a cool eq.
That's cool, but that would still be one instance, bit of a pain using on multiple channels, would have to buy more of them or record each instrument seperately one after the other. Plus no instant recall of all instances in the DAW project.
Old 26th March 2010
  #7
Gear Nut
 

There are a few at auction that have yet to end, but I don't know their originality and working condition, or what the final bid will cost. If the seller is a good source I highly recommend grabbing one and getting it racked, as it is worth it!

I don't see any completed auctions on eBay Germany, the lesser BFE/Filtek's are going for $200€+, Vintage King no longer has the 2-channel racked "b", but they do have a single module, less-featured, non-racked "a" for $350.


Quote:
Originally Posted by salomonander View Post
i can buy the real thing on german ebay for 100€ more. no offense. just saying.... still, its a cool eq.
Old 27th March 2010
  #8
Lives for gear
 
matucha's Avatar
You may buy the module cheap, but racking(+psu+connectors) adds large sum on top of that.
Old 27th March 2010
  #9
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by salomonander View Post
i can buy the real thing on german ebay for 100€ more. no offense. just saying.... still, its a cool eq.
No offense but you can buy..one...

In Nebula you can load at least 10. of them.

I am very pleased with all non selfish information and products given from people like cdsoundmaster. Thank you for all your efforts and your amazing work!

This board is worth because of that kind..

Hopefully it will stay that way..
Old 27th March 2010
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Finnish's Avatar
 

When we will see a Nebula eq that holds at least hp/lp and 1-3 adjustable freqs in one instance? Then I'm in the train, immediately...
Old 27th March 2010
  #11
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by salomonander View Post
i can buy the real thing on german ebay for 100€ more. no offense. just saying.... still, its a cool eq.
no you can't
Old 27th March 2010
  #12
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnish View Post
When we will see a Nebula eq that holds at least hp/lp and 1-3 adjustable freqs in one instance? Then I'm in the train, immediately...
You can use shelves for that and I think cdsoundmaster's Mastering Suit has HP/LP filters.

Search for Acon Digital Media effect chainer (there are also 1-2 alternatives to that chainer). You can insert Nebula eq's there, save preset as you like to open few instances inside it.
Old 27th March 2010
  #13
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooker View Post
You can use shelves for that and I think cdsoundmaster's Mastering Suit has HP/LP filters.

Search for Acon Digital Media effect chainer (there are also 1-2 alternatives to that chainer). You can insert Nebula eq's there, save preset as you like to open few instances inside it.
Not a real solution. Nebula add delay in signal path. More Nebula's more delay in signal. Acoustica team said they will probably introduce real chainer inside Nebula in version 4 so we will probably make something like shelves from SSL with bells from Neve or API
Old 27th March 2010
  #14
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnish View Post
When we will see a Nebula eq that holds at least hp/lp and 1-3 adjustable freqs in one instance? Then I'm in the train, immediately...
It is already possible to do but it is extremely, extremely time consuming to do meaning if I'd create one such program I'd ask for at least 100$ or more for the program to cover expenses. Troubleshooting a sampling of that size would be insane to do alone.

Ever wondered why Sintefex/Focusrite provide a **** load of compressors but only a few EQs? Same reason..

Cheers!
bManic
Old 27th March 2010
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Taurean's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
It is already possible to do but it is extremely, extremely time consuming to do meaning if I'd create one such program I'd ask for at least 100$ or more for the program to cover expenses. Troubleshooting a sampling of that size would be insane to do alone.

Ever wondered why Sintefex/Focusrite provide a **** load of compressors but only a few EQs? Same reason..

Cheers!
bManic
Yea, exactly... and that's a whole different scheme; static convolution. Nebula consists of more variables and larger sampling session.
Old 27th March 2010
  #16
Lives for gear
 
laser's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdsoundmaster View Post
Hi there!

.....88.2 would be fine, but honestly I know one customer that is definitely using 88.2,
Make that two!

Sample a great EQ (Doc Fear/Fearn, preferably) at 88.2 and I'll be your customer for life.

Thanks, in advance.

Laser
Old 27th March 2010
  #17
Gear Nut
 

A current real solution is to place Neb instances on a few bus group fx in your daw, save it to a preset or session, and leave it. If you are going to use more than one band from the same group of eq, load them up side by side. This takes exponentially less cpu than creating or editing a program that has all factors realtime. Here is how that works:

1 frequency band + 1 gain + 0 gain = 2 samples.

2 frequency bands + 1 gain + 0 gain:

freq. 1 @ +1dB, freq. 2 @ 0dB
freq. 1 @ 0dB, freq. 2 @ 0dB
freq. 1 @ +1dB, freq. 2 @ +1dB
freq. 1 @ 0dB, freq. 2 @ +1dB.

4 samples

3 freq bands
9 samples.

Add 1 more gain stage and it multiplies.

With an eq program that does one frequency at a time, it is easily 550 samples.
To have the same with 2 bands is around 28,000 or more. I could say exactly with more time and a calculator.
Considering that quality means cpu, thee may be a military super-computer somewhere that can handle the clean version before adding harmonic content.

The benefit is the itty bitty teeny weeny additional character of one band affecting the other. I used to think this was a huge deal until sampling just about every type of design, at which point I realized that all of the fun is happening one band at a time. If you add a single instance of the same item as a pre, you have the entire picture with less imapct.

But, for the benefit of multiple bands, it is a single addition and not a multiplication in sampling. The solution now is opening 2 Neb's serial for 2 bands, 3 for 3. This will eventually be inside the plug-in, but there is no reason to wait for that to happen. In tracking, mixing, and in mastering, it is an excellent practice to isolate your eq needs to as few multiple-band changes as needed, but you should have enough cpu to run a few side by side and have exactly what you want.

Delay compensation inside DAW will align any eq's from the same family.





Quote:
Originally Posted by mpod View Post
Not a real solution. Nebula add delay in signal path. More Nebula's more delay in signal. Acoustica team said they will probably introduce real chainer inside Nebula in version 4 so we will probably make something like shelves from SSL with bells from Neve or API
Old 27th March 2010
  #18
Gear Nut
 

From everything that I've made at 96, it now tests perfectly at 88.2.

Any previous issues seem to be resolved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laser View Post
Make that two!

Sample a great EQ (Doc Fear/Fearn, preferably) at 88.2 and I'll be your customer for life.

Thanks, in advance.

Laser
Old 27th March 2010
  #19
Gear Nut
 

Yes!
The solution for multiple bands is being able to load them serially.
This can be done just opening Neb side by side (I think busses are perfect for this). But, when it is inside the engine as a feature, it will take a little less cpu bc there will be some factors that only have to load once.

The only time I've felt the need to do this inside the program, which was seven times more samples, was in the variable eq on my Marshall amp, bc the bands actually intentionally change either in a noticeable way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TranscendingM View Post
Yea, exactly... and that's a whole different scheme; static convolution. Nebula consists of more variables and larger sampling session.
Old 1st April 2010
  #20
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by salomonander View Post
i can buy the real thing on german ebay for 100€ more. no offense. just saying.... still, its a cool eq.
Well, that seems to be the current marketprice:
Siemens Sitral Entzerrer EQ W295b Nr. 4 bei eBay.de: Sonstige (endet 30.03.10 16:18:11 MESZ)

Did somebody test the nebula version already?

Tobias
Old 7th April 2010
  #21
Gear Nut
 

It sold for EUR 353,44

Quote:
Originally Posted by
Quote:
Originally Posted by [B
salomonander[/B]
i can buy the real thing on german ebay for 100€ more. no offense. just saying.... still, its a cool eq.

Well, that seems to be the current marketprice:
Siemens Sitral Entzerrer EQ W295b Nr. 4 bei eBay.de: Sonstige (endet 30.03.10 16:18:11 MESZ)

Did somebody test the nebula version already?

Tobias
Old 8th April 2010
  #22
Lives for gear
 
matucha's Avatar
so if this is only about the price (which is not), you have 2x350e for modules and 700e for racking&psu solution = ~1400e stereo EQ

the free version doesn't show in my nebula free so no nebula siemens for me ;(
Old 8th April 2010
  #23
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by matucha View Post
so if this is only about the price (which is not), you have 2x350e for modules and 700e for racking&psu solution = ~1400e stereo EQ

the free version doesn't show in my nebula free so no nebula siemens for me ;(
besides good converters...but sure money is not the only value with these librarys.

You should totally get help from the forum and demo it!
Old 8th April 2010
  #24
Lives for gear
 

Im guessing the demo only works in Nebula 3 Pro
Old 8th April 2010
  #25
Lives for gear
Works fine here with nebula 2, actually I think every preset can be opened and used with nebula 2.
Old 8th April 2010
  #26
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cooker View Post
Works fine here with nebula 2, actually I think every preset can be opened and used with nebula 2.

I mean any version other than the free version
Old 9th October 2010
  #27
Lives for gear
 
Surbitone's Avatar
I bought a couple of these rackup eq's a few weeks ago and they are simply incredible. I purchased this pack a few days ago, basically so that I could get interpolated bands (heh), and Michael has truly done a fantastic job on genuinely capturing the sound of this eq, whilst making it a bit more versatile - thumbsup
Old 9th October 2010
  #28
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surbitone View Post
I bought a couple of these rackup eq's a few weeks ago and they are simply incredible. I purchased this pack a few days ago, basically so that I could get interpolated bands (heh), and Michael has truly done a fantastic job on genuinely capturing the sound of this eq, whilst making it a bit more versatile - thumbsup
I'd love to hear a comparison just to get an idea how close it is.
Old 10th October 2010
  #29
Lives for gear
 
Surbitone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooker View Post
I'd love to hear a comparison just to get an idea how close it is.

PM'd you.
Old 10th October 2010
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooker View Post
I'd love to hear a comparison just to get an idea how close it is.
+1
please share your thoughts here
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