Hmm, I've read the links to the RME's forum .

Honestly , I don't know what to tell you . But for sure this case will be solved ! Think positively !

Thanks for the encouragement.

I'm hoping for a breakthrough, but the longer this drags on, the dimmer the hope...

I did have a problem... it turned out to be the 10mtr (longer than stock) firewire cable.
I then got a firewire "repeater", and the problem went away.
In all your different combinations I didn't see different firewire cables. heh

first check what is going on by plugging in headphones and route the input (that is being recorded) to the headphones.
try that first, then look at the firewire cable, then controller chip in your computr.
Is it a TI? If not try a PCI firewire card.

I've used a Fireface for close to 5 years now, some time in combination with an ADI-8 AE (always solid until recently when the fireface blew a couple of caps. not a big problem. replacing with better caps now. thumbsup)

good luck, digital gremlins aren't easy to find.
(got a few myself LOL)

@reptil
Thanks for the advice and encouragement.

For the record, I had 2 different Firewire cables in my tests from different companies, both around 6 feet in length. No difference.

Also, I'm using a PCI firewire card with a TI chipset. It's mentioned earlier in this thread, and it's exact manufacturer/model is spelled out in every test log accompanying every YouTube test.


For my own education, what are the symptoms of a Firewire connection problem?
I suspect that ALL data is garbled, not just the ADAT channels.
Am I wrong?

It mostly didn't work no. When it did, there were many dropouts.

Also what I experienced was clicks when there was another firewire device connected (a D2 LaCie drive in my case) Those clicks were only there when the LaCie was working hard.

Reading through this thread and watching the video, it seems to me you should focus on the ADAT clock connection.
That might be the problem of the connected device. Did you try another ADAT machine with the Fireface?
There should be a message in the control panel, saying there's a sync lock between the Fireface and the external ADAT device. I can see in your video it has two sync from both cables. I don't remember if that is normal. (It could be, I haven't run another ADAT into the fireface for over a year ) Did you try SUMMUX (96 Khz)?

As an alternative, try clocking the two devices together through wordclock (with a BNC cable). Also try a different ADAT device (ADI-8 worked well).

You also seem to be using the same setup each time (same PCI card, same host computer?) Using 4 different units with the same host and having the same problems...I would want to rule out the stuff that hasn't changed (but in a manner that's consistent enough to make sense of things.) I've found RME drivers (in general) to be just as stable on Mac/OSX or WinXp (and Vista/Win7) so you can focus on troubleshooting your current setup in ease, without worrying about the need to shift your entire DAW computing experience to OSX.

I didn't read the other threads on the RME forums, but just off the top of my head:

- Don't rule out potential resource conflicts with your PCI slot & the PCI-hosted Firewire card.

- Typical DPC latency checker fun to check for potential spikes at or near when the clicks occur.

- Make sure you're not still somehow using MS's "bad" firewire driver that not only limits everything to FW400 speeds but also caused a myriad of other issues for people.

- ADAT cables make a huge difference indeed, I used some of what I considered to be "better" toslink cables for slightly longer cable runs and was disappointed that I needed BNC wordclock to still 'clean' them up. Have since moved to high-grade cables and can leave the system clocked for days without issues.

Now for my own personal anecdote:
I had an issue with a firewire interface and changed the cable, had the same damn issue. Tried a 3rd (and longer) cable and things worked, leading me to toss the other 2 in the trash. The problems *seemed* to be driver related for me, as half the time either ASIO or wav drivers would 'disappear' but the other would work fine for 30 minutes and then devolve into clicking, or everything would work until the computer would hang etc. One 'bad' firewire cable was hardly used and had been sitting in a drawer, I had no reason to suspect it for being bad. The other cable had been in use for about 9 months and hadn't had issues *that I was aware of* until all that fun started. So I spent a few days frustrated at the system's stability and wasted several hours playing with various drivers & checking the computer's overall health until I decided to just start rotating cables...

@reptil
Thanks for the info.

@valis
Thanks for looking into it.

Yes it is same PC setup each time, BUT, different "click" profiles for each Fireface.

The rented FF800 I tested last Sunday (with the owner trying to figure out what was wrong by my side) had one consistently clean input, while the other was clicking.

The loaner FF800 Synthax sent me had many many clicks on both channels.

My "repaired" FF800 has more clicks on input 2, but both click randomly.

So each FF800 has a different "personality".
If my setup was at fault, that would not be the case.
Am I wrong?

Re: ADAT cables. Everyone keeps telling me to get better cables. Yes! TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT WORKS FOR YOU AND I WILL BUY SOME.
No one has given me an exact make/model yet...

RME has had problems with the HDSP PCI cards and the new HDSPe AIO, where hardware mods needed to be performed to fix the issues. I totally dig RME and love the RME products I own, but they do have a bit of a track record for hardware issues. The up side is that they attack the problems fast and fix it in production. Good luck.

Hey there stdenisg:
I watched your video on YouTube and noticed a couple of things different on your setup than I have...you are obviously having a sync problem as can be seen in the momentary signal drops on your meters....either that our your signal source is flawed...
I also use WinXP with a FF800. I have four ADAT cables connected between my equipment to get 16 ADAT channels plus the 10 FF800 analog - 26 total no dropouts... Adat1 In/Out (1-8) Adat2 In/Out (9-16)

I noticed a difference in your Fireface settings from what mine are set to. I'm also using 256 samples in the buffer (you had 512)
I have "Word Clock" selected with "AutoSync". (you had ADAT 1)
Have you tried different settings other than the ones shown in your video?
It is definitely a sync problem....

BTW stdenisg....is that Sound Devices 2 track recorder on top of the Octo you were using for a source?
Also cool rack!
Were you spinning that around on a some sort of turntable?
What was that???

@djmukilteo
Thanks for looking into it.

Re:
Wrong. My first test signal is a 20-20000 Hz sine sweep. The level meters dip when at the top range of the sweep. And the clicks I am experiencing are scattered randomly throughout the test, not at regular intervals.

The YouTube tests are the tip of the iceberg of the tests I have run and were only created to prove to Synthax that I was still having issues after they had "repaired" my FF800.

Yes I have tried other meaningful settings. BufferSize, ClockMode, PrefSyncRef, DDS Frequency (SampleRate), etc.

I noticed less clicks at 44100 Hz than 48000 Hz, but it was still unpredictable. I simply cannot depend on the FF800 to read the incoming ADAT data streams without error.

Maybe, but...

Would a sync problem affect the ADAT inputs only?

But more importantly:

Would a sync problem affect the ADAT inputs independently, meaning that clicks appear randomly for ADAT input1 channels and in entirely different spots for ADAT input2 channels?
Both ADAT inputs are being fed from the same source (i.e., OctamicD ADATMain and ADATAux)...

The owner of the Fireface I rented last week was surprised to see that his Fireface suffered from the click issue I am investigating.

The issue is most likely not very common, and maybe my test signals just make it jump out for some reason... if anyone here actually tried this type of test, we might have a better understanding of the circumstances where it shows up.

But NO ONE to date (RME/Synthax included) has ever told me, "We tried your tests and we could not reproduce the issue".


Re: Yes, Sound Devices 702. I like a lot.

Re: The rack. I purpose-built that "rack" for these videos because I wanted a setup that would allow me to show every step of the test without having to stop the camera, so I wouldn't be accused of "rigging" the tests. It's just sitting on a "lazy susan" base...

Have you tried clockin using the Wordclock connection to narrow the issue down?

Have you moved your FW card to another slot in your PC, IRQ stuff will screw things up for sure?

Have you tried another FW card? It can be bad ya know

Maybe your Octamix where the clock is coming from is the source of the issue?

Try some Mogami, Monster, Canary, optical cables. Heck, I got mine from the Best buy and never an issue(Belkin). The ones that come with the I/O's where cheapo, click/pop making things I threw away.

Just some Ideas

You have THREE common denominators here though that you need to weed through. I would buy good cables to rule out that area. HOSA is NOT good

Same PC
Same FW Card
Same clock source

@shanabit
Thanks for the tips.

I'll look into the cables...


When FF800 is master, I'm sending Wordclock to OctamicD. Tried two different cables. Tried sending Wordclock to SoundDevice 702. Wordclock is being sent/received correctly, as far as I can tell. Still clicking.

This is my second PC rig for the FF800. Different motherboard, different Firewire card. No difference. Still clicking.

Tried second OctamicD that Synthax sent me into my FF800. No difference. Still clicking.

Tried MY OctamicD feeding a ProTools 003 Rack, on someone else's Mac. My OctamicD was NOT clicking. So it seems to be working ok.

Good suggestions, though. But been there... done that.

What I would like, is to have someone run the tests on THEIR setup. If it works, I'll try THEIR FF800 on MY setup. Then we'll know, won't we?

Anyone up to the challenge???

I am willing to take this challenge , however I don´t have at the moment any adat hardware to test with my FF .

But I had in the past , a presonus digimax 8 pres with adat that I used to use with FF (last year actually) , and I remember that I didn´t have any problem at all ...

Anyways, now I´m kindda worried , because I´m about to expand my system (gonna have to track whole bands now) and I was actually considering buying another FF or may be and ADI-FS ...

@fossaree
My advice is to test thoroughly beforehand. It's not something that will automatically jump out at you. It may occur infrequently, which is why my test lasts 12 minutes. And repeat it a few times, to be sure...

Like I've said before, I'm not out to bad-mouth RME or their gear. I'm just reporting on my experience.

If there are FF800 out there that do not suffer from this issue (there MUST be, right?), then I'd like RME to exchange the one I have for the click-free version.

Am I being unreasonable???

stdenisg:

One thing I was wondering in your video?
and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!!!

Why are you running the analog outputs from the OctaMicD into the analog inputs of the FF800?
Why would you do that? All your doing is double converting the outputs of the OctamicD thru the FF800!!!!!!
And then hooking up both the Adat "Main" and Adat "Aux" from the OctamicD into the FF800 "Adat1 In" and "Adat2 In"....
Why would you do that?
There's only 1 Adat out from the OctamicD (1-8) one is a "Main" and the "Aux" is a secondary output?
Why would you do that?
and then on top of that your using a BNC Word clock cable?
Why would you do that?
The FF800 will internally clock off the "Adat1 In" if you set it to AutoSync.

You should feed your source signal into:
FF800 inputs (1-10) AND the OctamicD 8 inputs (1-8)
Take your Adat optical cable from the OctamicD Adat "Main" into the FF800 "Adat1 In"....that will now show up as Adat 1-8 and give you the 8 channels of the OctamicD.
Set the dip switches on the OctamicD to EXT and make sure both units are using the same sample rate 44.1 etc. and see if you have any problems...
you shouldn't....you just have it hooked up wrong!

@djmukilteo
To sum it up: RME/Synthax have seen the videos/ read about my test setups, and NOT ONCE have they ever told me that things were configured improperly.

But explaining why I did the things I did may be useful to others, so here goes.

My mono test signal originates from the SoundDevices 702. I use the left channel of the TAPE OUT.

From there, it gets split up and is routed to 2 different destinations: FF800 Inputs9+10, and OctamicD inputs 1-8.

The OctamicD analog outputs 1-8 feed the FF800 analog inputs 1-8. The Analog/Digital conversion is thus performed by the FF800.

The OctamicD ADATMain and ADATAux outputs both carry the identical result of the Analog/Digital conversion done by the OctamicD, and are fed into the FF800 ADAT1 and ADAT2 inputs.

Now, identifying the source of a click becomes a lot easier:

If the click is due to the SD702, I will see it on all the channels.
This is not the case.

If the click is due to the OctamicD input-stage, I will see the clicks on the FF800 analog inputs [1-8] as well as the ADAT inputs.
This is not the case.

If the click is due to the OctamicD Analog/Digital conversion, I will see the clicks on the FF800 ADAT inputs AT THE SAME SPOTS regardless of whether it is ADAT input 1 or 2.
This is not the case.

What I am seeing is clicks on FF800 ADAT inputs 1 & 2, but at different spots depending on the input.

So that leaves the FF800 ADAT inputs as the source of the problem.


See above.

I'm not sure which test you looked at, but if the FF800 was master, then I HAD to send Wordclock to the slaved OctamicD (I don't have the AES breakout to try and sync through AES input...).

I wish it was simply a case of "you have it hooked up wrong", or "you didn't set this properly", or "change your Firewire card", etc.

I know a lot of noobs show up on forums and start crying that their system "won't work" before RTFM and trying even the most basic troubleshooting steps.

I'm not one of them. I've tried many many things. Not everything, of course. But the basics have been covered...

To reiterate what I've said earlier, I'd LOVE to test out a FF800 that has been tested by someone else and found to be working.

Or equivalently, try your tests with MY FF800 and see what happens.

Again, is anyone willing to step up to the plate?

+1 to the HOSA, I too think you should get rid of that ****, Get some decent mogami or canare cables with neutrik connectors if you can they wont break the pockets and are preety well made.

@peejuu

Do Canare or Mogami make TOSLINK optical cables?
I couldn't find any on their sites...

Again, yes i am currently searching for alternative TOSLINK fiber cables.
Looking at glass instead of plastic.

RME link to Alva cables...
I went to Monoprice, but they're having delivery issues right now...
Others as well...

But to all FF800 owners who are having no issues, what are YOU using?

Are these actual audible clicks, or are they not audible, but their existence is being proven by the wavelab click analysis function?

I don't think a HOSA lightpipe cable would be a problem at all . Unless it is defective , of course !

@FeatheredSerpent

They are audible clicks.

Here is screenshot:
http://zuyotani.com/rme-glitch/glitch.png

In all cases, a few (it varies) samples drop (or jump up) to value '0', then resume on their normal cycle.

ok, great i have a fireface 800 and is a non defective one :P

and i know which is your problem and why happen only on the adat.

the point is this, you have only one FireWire bus in your computer and the RME use a lot of bandwidth because it has so many inputs and outputs.

plus you have another firewire interface or converter, plugged in another FW port in your computer but which shares the internal FW bus.

and you get clicks.. that's happened to me with a fireface and a profire 2626.

there are 2 ways to solve the problem:

1) buy another FW bus (to put in a pci slot)
2) connect the fireface 800 with FW800 and connect to the fireface 800 the secondary converter with FW 400 (or FW800 is even better).

in my case i've used the second solution and i solved the problem, but maybe you have to put a secondary FW bus in a pci slot.

plus you should deactivate all the channel you don't really use. for example i use only analog INs, adat1, spdif, and wordclock

it will works.. i know.

@mattianlaseppia
Hi! Thanks for joining in.

No I don't. Only 1 FF800 plugged into Firewire card. Always.

What if I actually DO need those 16 channels from ADAT1 and ADAT2 inputs?
That's why I bought the FF800...
Are you saying the FF800 can't really deliver on that promise?
That RME just put them there for marketing purposes and users should never actually try to use them?

stdenisg
I don't think it's your cables and I wonder if anyone actually paused your video like I did to see exactly how you were hooking up your test..

I'm just saying it looks like a crazy way of doing it...that's all?!
I'm not trying to say your crazy or being arrogant or anything...just don't understand why your connecting it all up like that!

Sending the FF800 two duplicate Adat signals from the Octo into the FF800 makes no sense whatsoever?
It only has 8 analog outputs and 8 analog inputs and can be used either Adat (1-8) or analog out (1-8) take your pick. If you route the Octo analogs out to the FF800 inputs your just double converting the Octo A/D....it's already converting your 8 analog mic inputs A/D into 8 analog outputs D/A.
If you set the FF800 to read the Adat1 in from the Octo and sync the FF800 to Adat1 they will sync automatically....doesn't matter what the Prf Sync is....Word clock has no use....
then you will have 18 channels of A/D....8 analog inputs from the Octo transferred to the FF800 using light and 10 analog inputs from the FF800....that's it...

If you are trying to inject a source signal for a true test like that, the proper lab test method would be to use an analog function generator (like I do) set for a continuous sine wave 1khz@1vpp and insert it into each analog input "mono".
Now if you want to use your SD702 as the source then I would only use one channel mono...if you try to use stereo and split one channel to one unit and the other channel to the other I think your gonna have problems and it won't be a very true test...the levels should all be exactly the same on all channel inputs and outputs

Then take and set your DAW up with 18 audio channel tracks AN1-10 and A1-8.
Record that for 10 minutes and see if you get dropouts...
Do you have DAW? or are you just using Digicheck?

Also have you tried each unit separately?
I would have done that first to rule out one unit over the other
Make sure they each operate with no dropouts using the same setup I've described above?


Seriously...I'm really trying to help you out here...I'm not trying to give you any crap about what you know or don't know...I've been doing this stuff for a long long time and there is always a reason for intermittent problems or weird anomalies you just have to be diligent and work from the front back to the end and rule each thing out one at a time
Let me know what you find!

no i'm saying that the FW bus can't deliver all the FF channels if you have to many things connected on the FW bus or USB bus, consider that also USB goes on the same FW bus.

or maybe you have compatibility problem with your FW chipset.

i mean this is a FW problem, not a fireface problem, the fireface is only asking very much in term of performance.

or maybe your FW chipset is broken or defective (i mean the one inside your computer)

but the click problem happened to me various times.. and pissed me off..

i got problem with duende plus fireface (honestly the duende worked very bad, than i sold it, but with another FW buss people had solved the problem) and i got the problem with the 2626.

now i've found a good setup and i don't have this kind of problems.

consider that specially external USB HD are a pain in the ass, more than firewire ones.. consider that digidesign tells you the models of HD you need to use to make pro tools work and USB HD are not compatible.

you could have some problems with the FW chipset in your computer and if you use only the standard analog inputs all works fine.. but with ADAT the bandwidth is much more and you got problems.

honestly i thought you had the converter connected via FW (which connection you use?) because i think the click is generated by the converters not the FF, but probably if you use only the converters you don't get the problem.

To get 16 Adat channels into the FF800 you would need another Octamic!
The max channels you have right now is 18.
I'm running 4 optical cables into my FF800 currently from a ZED16R which also has 4 optical 2in 2out.
Adat1 into the FF800 is A1-8 and Adat2 is A9-16.

Just a question?
What exactly are you trying to do with the setup you have?
From your video....
1 FF800
1 OctamicD

Adat channel from the OctamicD (that's (1) one optic cable from "Main" out from the OctamicD to "Adat1 In" on the FF800).
That Adat into the FF800 is (A1-8)
Your not thinking that the OctamicD gives you 8 analog ouputs and an additional different 8 Adat outputs are you?
....or by using the two Adat ports Main and Aux out of the Octamic you get 16 are you?
That ain't how it works....
You can mix or route the analog outs from the Octamic and use the Adat but they will always be the 8 inputs.
1 will analog and 1 will be digital but they will be the same

@djmukilteo

I spent some time explaining this a few posts ago. Sorry if you didn't get it. Otherwise, I'm not getting what you're trying to tell me.


Sorry, I don't have that equipment. I used what was available to me (SD 702), and to be honest, I'm 99.999% sure it did the job I intended it to do, namely to provide a mono signal source.


This is what was done. I used the LEFT channel of the tape out and divided that MONO source into as many physical connections as was required.

Agreed. Which is why I DID NOT use a STEREO signal.

Possibly. But I wanted to see if the levels affected the results, so for each test I would set up the levels differently... I saw no difference in the test results.

Yes. I have Cubase and Ableton Live. I did not try testing with those, because I don't believe that it will make a difference and I wanted to reduce the complexity of the tests, and Digicheck seemed to fit the bill for this purpose.

Yes, my OctamicD has been tried on another system (described earlier in this thread) and was performing correctly in that setup. No clicks.

The only other system my FF800 MAY have been tested on is at Synthax.
But then they have consistently refused to tell me on WHAT system and HOW it was tested, so I can't know for sure what they did.

It boils down to this:

Option 1: FF800=GOOD, MySetup=BAD
But Synthax charged me 575$ to repair the FF800 I sent them.
Why was this necessary if the clicks are caused by my setup?
Ooops!

Option 2: FF800=BAD, MySetup=GOOD
Synthax charged me 575$ to repair the FF800 I sent them.
Why is the "repaired" FF800 still clicking?
Ooops!


I know and believe me, I appreciate it.
I won't take things personally, promise.
Anyone able to solve this mystery will win my appreciation for a long time.
Keep the ideas coming and I'll let you know if they solve anything...

Cheers!

hey man, i'm sorry but you haven't understood anything.. isn't that stupid the OP.

re-read everything.

he just made a supposition, asking to me.. so you are saying the FF isn't able to do what is advertised to do.

he said "IF" i want to record 16 channel via adat, not he wants to record 16 channel via adat, nor he ask to the octamic to send 16 channel.

anyway the FF800 is very stable and has very solid drivers.. while the octamic is m-audio and i always had various problems with m-audio.. i don't know.