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Building a PC Condenser Microphones
Old 5th December 2009
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast_Fingers View Post
Finally, get a good backup plan. A Network attached device like a ReadyNas 1100S (it's easy to swap out their power supply) can do automatic backups without fuss, and is rack mountable too. I use their toaster-like Duo. That, combined with occassional DVD backups of critical sessions and keeping them offsite, should help you when Murphy's law comes.
All great advice...
I need to follow this one myself...
I backup in case of hard drive failure but I never store off site in case of fire or an EMP attack from my neighbor...
An external backup stored off site is really a great idea... How often do you backup that way? I coudl see me doing it once a week or so...
Old 5th December 2009
  #32
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root's Avatar
I've heard of people just shelving/storing the used drive when it reaches a certain capacity and starting over w/ a new drive for new material.

I guess so as not to beat the life out of the older used drive?

How hard would it be to reincarnate a used drive if need be? Is it just a matter of plugging it in again?

I myself only have about 10 gigs of audio files after a year of writing so I thought I wouldn't need more than a 500Gig Audio Drive.

Excuse my ignorance - I'm a tadpole when it comes to this stuff. I hope I'm not getting in the way here.
Old 5th December 2009
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by root View Post
I've heard of people just shelving/storing the used drive when it reaches a certain capacity and starting over w/ a new drive for new material.

I guess so as not to beat the life out of the older used drive?

How hard would it be to reincarnate a used drive if need be? Is it just a matter of plugging it in again?

I myself only have about 40 gigs of audio files after a year of writing so I thought I wouldn't need more than a 500Gig Audio Drive.

Excuse my ignorance - I'm a tadpole when it comes to this stuff. I hope I'm not getting in the way here.
No.. you're definitely not in the way
It depends on how you do music....
I'm more urban and contemporary... so most of my music consists of 8 bar loops repeated with subtle changes or instrument drop outs...
Now... this is the Big plus to modern ITB mixing and recording...
Lets do some math... easy theoretical math... but with a very practical application
Say we have 20 mono tracks in our 4 minute, 60bpm song....
Thats 60 measures of music. Assuming every track is playing for the entire 4 minutes then you have 80 minutes worth of wave files
at about 10mb per minute at 44.1, 16-bit for a stereo track, Not an exact figure... but thats the pretty widely accepted approx. size
That song would be 400mb (20 mono tracks for our simple math purposes is 10stereo tracks)... The wave files are stored and your DAW just puts them together for you....
What if it was recorded and saved at 48k, 24-bit.... Thats gonna up the storage space by anywhere from 1.5 to 2 times the room...
So that file is gonna be over 600mb big...
Now here is where modern DAWs work their magic... If you're kick drum does the same thing for the entire 4 minutes... then do an 8 bar loop of it and play that clip 7.5 times back to back.... The result is now instead of taking up 20mb, that tracks wave file will only take up less than 5gb
A whole song done like this... even 48k at 24-bit would take up no more than 100mb for wave files.... And would not tax your HDD nearly as much because the wave files are much more accessible
My point is the amount of space you need depends on you
Are you the 8 bar loop copied 10 times on less than 20 tracks??
If so you wont need as much room as the orchestra composer trackign out 50 instruments who all play for 10 minutes straight
Some peoples music doesn't allow for too much looping... guitar driven songs tend to sound better playing straight through.... so the guitar part can have a different mood or tone during different parts of the song....
But I've definitely got projects that have over 2gb of wave files just for one project and I try to avg one full song every day or 2... and recording at higher than 48k will net you even bigger file sizes....
So no... a 500gb drive (and only using up to 250gb of it) could be fine
Old 5th December 2009
  #34
Gear Maniac
 

^ That guy's good.
Old 6th December 2009
  #35
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root's Avatar
one full song every day or 2 .....that's amazing.

FWIW...I'm about one every 2 weeks comfortably. I'm averaging about 10 or more audio tracks of guitar & Bass and 10 of synths. 48k 24 bit & not much in the loop department though because I write on a staff and assign instruments to the part....strings, piano, drums, organ, horns, etc ...that's how I ended up w/ 10 or 12 gigs. I'm just starting to compose some orchestral music for a pending job opportunity and it does seem a little lighter on the file size now that you mention it.

Then again did you see the Sonar 8.5 demo video where that guy w/ the bad haircut had a PCAudio Labs box w/ 140 tracks of orchestral instruments and a full blown video goin' simultaneously whilst he played a keyboard without a hikkup?

I wonder what that file wieghed in at...a few gigs at least??

What about swapping HD's - is that common practice?
Old 6th December 2009
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by root View Post
one full song every day or 2 .....that's amazing.

FWIW...I'm about one every 2 weeks comfortably. I'm averaging about 10 or more audio tracks of guitar & Bass and 10 of synths. 48k 24 bit & not much in the loop department though because I write on a staff and assign instruments to the part....strings, piano, drums, organ, horns, etc ...that's how I ended up w/ 10 or 12 gigs. I'm just starting to compose some orchestral music for a pending job opportunity and it does seem a little lighter on the file size now that you mention it.

Then again did you see the Sonar 8.5 demo video where that guy w/ the bad haircut had a PCAudio Labs box w/ 140 tracks of orchestral instruments and a full blown video goin' simultaneously whilst he played a keyboard without a hikkup?

I wonder what that file wieghed in at...a few gigs at least??

What about swapping HD's - is that common practice?
Yea... I saw that video... I use Sonar 8.5 PE as my main DAW... I like it so much that I bought 3 copies for 3 different computers of mine (main DAW, backup DAW, Laptop)
I'd say no to swapping internal drives.... If you're wanting to swap then I'd find a MOBO with eSATA or get an eSATA PCI or PCIe adapter....
Then you can mount any SATA drives in an external enclosure that has eSATA on it and swap drives that way... the enclosures aren't that expensive either... And you can even get enclosures with eSATA, FW400/800 and USB in case you ever travel to another studio
Old 6th December 2009
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by root View Post
How hard would it be to reincarnate a used drive if need be? Is it just a matter of plugging it in again?
With one of these, it's almost plug and play.

You could also run the hard drives placed on a shelf strategy with network attached storage. Many of them (including the ReadyNAS and Synology, another good brand) have a USB output that allows you to do just that. I'd probably invest in plastic bags (ideally anti-static) since hard drives are a bit more sensitive than optical media to bumps and the elements.
Old 10th December 2009
  #38
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technician View Post
Go for the 8GB!

What happened to this thread?

Hard drives, hard drives!
Hahaha Wow! I'm sorry you guys I got distracted from figuring this all out and it took a while for some new posts to show up, so I figured there wheren't that many people interested anyway :D Glad you've been folowing it all! :D

I'm back on track again

Quote:
Originally Posted by root View Post
I've heard of people just shelving/storing the used drive when it reaches a certain capacity and starting over w/ a new drive for new material.

...

Excuse my ignorance - I'm a tadpole when it comes to this stuff. I hope I'm not getting in the way here.
R3altruth already said it but don't worry about being in the way :D I'm still trying to wrap my head around it all too

About the disks; Keep in mind that data isn't stored forever on ANY medium. Disks tend to demagnetise after a couple of years. CD's last about 15-20 years or so... CDR's much less... more like 3-7 years or so... Tape is still one of the most reliable mediums for backing up your files, but still won't last 'forever'... The only alternative is 'reburning' all your CD's, or moving all your files from one disk to the other every 10 or so years... Or you could say; if you haven't touched a project for more then 10 years, you probably never will, so good riddance

...And I'm not even going to talk about the hassle of trying to find 'that one project' if you've got 25+ HDD's sitting in your archive

Quote:
Originally Posted by R3altruth View Post
All great advice...
I need to follow this one myself...
I backup in case of hard drive failure but I never store off site in case of fire or an EMP attack from my neighbor...
An external backup stored off site is really a great idea... How often do you backup that way? I coudl see me doing it once a week or so...
I backup everything, every day at the end of the day, and that disk goes off site (I store it at home ) but I guess it's a matter of how much work you're willing to loose in a fire/diskcrash/EMP incident, and how much time you're willing to invest in backing up your work. I have to add that the work I ususally do has pretty tight deadlines, and demanding clients so loosing my clients' files would be a disaster. In case of a fire, I can now move to a different studio and just finish whatever project I was working on, so with me it's just safety first.
As for investing time, it takes me about 5-10 minutes a day to backup everything I need. And I'm talking data that's scattered on 8 different network drives (DDP service). So if it's just one project folder you'll be done in a minute, or maybe even less. I would really recommend a good backup tool to save you a lot of work. What also really helps is storing your files in an orderly fashion. Make sure you work out what you'd want to backup after a days work and make sure you can backup that in an easy way. Having to figure out what folders to backup and which not is ususally a task you don't want after a hard days work, and I tend to become sloppy with making backups if it's too much of a hassle...

By the way, R3altruth, I guess you deserve a special thanks for all the info thus far... So... Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast_Fingers View Post
Wow. OP has definitely shown his work.
...

Finally, don't neglect coolers, cases, power supplies, fans, surge protectors/UPS, ergonomics, and backups.

...
Will get to that too... I've already found a really nice case (I beleive you mentioned it... The Cosmos 1000) But I'll get into that real soon

Haven't figured out what PSU to go with... Would be nice to find a real quiet one, but it seems to be pretty difficult to find 'benchmarks' for PSU's with people mesuring the dB's for example... Anyway, I'll be all over it

Allright HDD's!


Thus far my plan:

4 Disks all about 1 TB big, and an extra external disk.

The Spinpoint F3's by Samsung seem to get the job done nicely at a more then reasonable price... Also in most benchmarks they 'outrun' a lot of the 10.000 RPM disks in access times. So once your 10.000 RPM disk get's up to speed it's faster, but in the initial process of 'finding a file' the F3's get the job done a lot quicker then many of it's competitors, and I think access times are more important then the RPM, as I'll be running a RAID setup for my project and samples disk.

Disk 1 -> OS 1 (Audio)

Disk 2 -> OS 2 (multimedia and internet)

Disk 3+4 RAID 0 -> Samples/Projects

'Disk 5' -> Network connected backup disk with RAID 1 (Mirror) in a different room. (mainly so I won't have to listen to a Lacie disk trying to take off on/under my desk... MAN those boxes are noisy!)

Acually a 6th disk would be nice in terms of backing up -> Backup your backup (disk 5) and take that disk somewhere off site for maximum security

[On the side note; for those of you who don't know what RAID is; RAID is simply put a way to add multiple drives together and make your OS think it's only 1 drive. (More in depth WIKI info here!) You've got several options and the most basic two are RAID 0 (Stripe) adding two disks together deviding the data over two disks, which will increase the write and read speeds, but also 'double' the chance of disk failure (if one disk fails, you won't be able to salvage data from the other disk) So make sure you back-up! And the second option is RAID 1 (mirror) making 2 identical disks, having no speed gain whatsoever, but considerably reducing the risk of loosing your data when a disk fails.]

2 OS's? Yeah! I've been using dual boot systems for a couple of years now, and you wouldn't beleive how usefull it is to have a second partition on your workstation being able to run all the internet flash stuff, quicktime movies, WMV and WMA files, internet, maybe some photoshop or movie editing stuff, a virus scanner, media players etc. etc. etc. without having to install all that software on you main DAW partition. Also, when one of the two partitions stops working, you'll still be able to boot, and in most cases even salvage a lot of data from the other partition... So dual boot is a definate go for me.

Furthermore, I've found that no 10.000 RPM disk can even remotely match the speed of a RAID 0 partition with two disks at only 7200 RPM, so why invest a lot of extra cash into a 10.000 RPM disk if you can get more diskspace AND faster speeds at 'less cost' (If you count euro's/dollars per gigabyte)

Ofcourse putting two 10.000 RPM disks in a RAID 0 configuration would be even faster, but as mentioned earlyer the access speed of the F3's is pretty fast, and I guess when you're working with 2 disks in a RAID config access speeds become even more important (because it spreads the data across multiple disks...)

It would probably be even more ideal if you could spread your projects and samples over multiple 'disks' (or RAID configs), but I don't know if it's possible to install 2 RAID arrays on one MoBo. Does anyone know if that's possible?

That's my story on HDD's! Thoughts anyone?
Old 10th December 2009
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by root View Post
If noise is an important factor then you should consider the Seagate HD's - according to Scott @ ADK Pro Audio that they are quieter than the Cavier HD's.
I have also heard from other posts that the larger HD's have a higher failure rate. Take that w/ a grain of salt - like all opinions but realize there might be some truth to the statement - enuf to research it anyways.
I've had some Maxtor disks, and it took them 4 years of heavy abusing and taking them from one location to the other before they broke down. AND I've got 2 maxtors in a RAID configuration an older DAW and they've been purring quietly for 5+ years now....

As for Western Digital, I've allways heard they're a little more noisy then other brands, but then again that's 5+ year old info

Wouldn't know about seagate... Or Samsung, exept for the fact that the Samsung Spinpoint F3's get pretty bad ass ratings in numerous benchmarks, and came recommended in a couple best buy guides I found earlyer...

[EDIT: I forgot to add; I beleive (but correct me if i'm wrong) that the difference in sound produced by different brands of HD's on the market today is marginal. If you're looking into making your HD's quiet, the way they are mounted in your case is of FAR greater importance. That is where there's a lot of terrain to be won. A friend of mine has special rubber band mountings for his HD's, which 'susspends' them in the air, hanging freely in your case. I'll try and find out if that's a solution you can build into any case, or if they came with the case itself, and if so, what case it is that has them, because they work perfectly...!]
Old 10th December 2009
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quince View Post
I've had some Maxtor disks, and it took them 4 years of heavy abusing and taking them from one location to the other before they broke down. AND I've got 2 maxtors in a RAID configuration an older DAW and they've been purring quietly for 5+ years now....

As for Western Digital, I've allways heard they're a little more noisy then other brands, but then again that's 5+ year old info

Wouldn't know about seagate... Or Samsung, exept for the fact that the Samsung Spinpoint F3's get pretty bad ass ratings in numerous benchmarks, and came recommended in a couple best buy guides I found earlyer...

[EDIT: I forgot to add; I beleive (but correct me if i'm wrong) that the difference in sound produced by different brands of HD's on the market today is marginal. If you're looking into making your HD's quiet, the way they are mounted in your case is of FAR greater importance. That is where there's a lot of terrain to be won. A friend of mine has special rubber band mountings for his HD's, which 'susspends' them in the air, hanging freely in your case. I'll try and find out if that's a solution you can build into any case, or if they came with the case itself, and if so, what case it is that has them, because they work perfectly...!]
Larger drives have higher failure rates because they have more spindles...
the more spindles you have, the higher percentage chance of 1 of them going bad.... and if 1 spindle goes bad then you lose the entire drive.
So large drives get criticized the same way RAID 0 arrays do
Old 10th December 2009
  #41
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quince View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by R3altruth View Post
All great advice...
I need to follow this one myself...
I backup in case of hard drive failure but I never store off site in case of fire or an EMP attack from my neighbor...
An external backup stored off site is really a great idea... How often do you backup that way? I coudl see me doing it once a week or so...
I backup everything, every day at the end of the day, and that disk goes off site (I store it at home ) but I guess it's a matter of how much work you're willing to loose in a fire/diskcrash/EMP incident, and how much time you're willing to invest in backing up your work. I have to add that the work I ususally do has pretty tight deadlines, and demanding clients so loosing my clients' files would be a disaster. In case of a fire, I can now move to a different studio and just finish whatever project I was working on, so with me it's just safety first.
As for investing time, it takes me about 5-10 minutes a day to backup everything I need. And I'm talking data that's scattered on 8 different network drives (DDP service). So if it's just one project folder you'll be done in a minute, or maybe even less. I would really recommend a good backup tool to save you a lot of work. What also really helps is storing your files in an orderly fashion. Make sure you work out what you'd want to backup after a days work and make sure you can backup that in an easy way. Having to figure out what folders to backup and which not is ususally a task you don't want after a hard days work, and I tend to become sloppy with making backups if it's too much of a hassle...

By the way, R3altruth, I guess you deserve a special thanks for all the info thus far... So... Thanks!
Just so you didn't miss it R3altruth
Old 10th December 2009
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quince View Post
Just so you didn't miss it R3altruth
Thanks... I think I will start offsite backup storage. I just like to live dangerously....
one of my back up secrets is that I like to backup my backup though...
It gives new live to all of the old PATA IDE hard drives laying around.... 20 bucks gets you a USB/FW external enclosure for them
Old 11th December 2009
  #43
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Fast_Fingers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Haven't figured out what PSU to go with... Would be nice to find a real quiet one, but it seems to be pretty difficult to find 'benchmarks' for PSU's with people mesuring the dB's for example... Anyway, I'll be all over it
I recommend looking at Hardocp and Silentpcreview for those. The former has torture tests for that peace of mind, the lack is really focused on decibels (they even have recordings...thrilling!)
Old 15th December 2009
  #44
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast_Fingers View Post
I recommend looking at Hardocp and Silentpcreview for those. The former has torture tests for that piece of mind, the lack is really focused on decibels (they even have recordings...thrilling!)
Great!

Looking into it...

Thanks! :D
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