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Relab LX480 Reverb/Delay Processors (HW)
Old 6th January 2010
  #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Ryan View Post
Who wouldnt pay $350 to $400 for a good reverb.....I just hope its not those Lexicon prices.....
$350 to $400 seems like a realistic price to me
Old 6th January 2010
  #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maky357 View Post
I am not bashing EOS which is IMO great/awesome for simple task(and sometimes can produce amazing results quickly) but how on earth you can compare 50$ EOS to (example) 500$ VSS3 ??
But you CAN compare EOS with VSS3, and unless it's all about producing reverb pads, VSS3 wins hands down everytime.

I paid $50 for EOS, but it's getting a lot less use than the Lexicon Native Bundle and VSS3. In fact it's getting none at all, so that makes it quite expensive, really.
Old 6th January 2010
  #483
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Wow. Wouldn't have expected B to be the plugin. Love it !
Old 6th January 2010
  #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jslevin View Post
Seriously? That's what you think I meant?

Please.

JSL
Frankly, I usually have no idea what you really mean when you are policing other people's comments, nor do I care. I usually get what you mean when it's your own opinion about recording related matters, and I probably agree with you more than half the time.
Old 6th January 2010
  #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuseburn View Post
Wow. Wouldn't have expected B to be the plugin. Love it !
Sorry for the OT.

Your avatar kicks ass. Would love to see Pro Tools VST 9 heh.
Old 6th January 2010
  #486
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Jorg's Avatar
been reading a few pages back but couldnt find what I was looking for:

Is this thing out yet?
Where can we get a demo?
Old 6th January 2010
  #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorg View Post
been reading a few pages back but couldnt find what I was looking for:

Is this thing out yet?
Where can we get a demo?
The demo is not out yet, although the developer has posted some audio clips. We have been told that there will be more news released next week...
Old 6th January 2010
  #488
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jslevin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyoteous View Post
Frankly, I usually have no idea what you really mean when you are policing other people's comments, nor do I care. I usually get what you mean when it's your own opinion about recording related matters, and I probably agree with you more than half the time.
Interesting. Maybe you could PM me sometime and explain to me where the line is crossed between "disagreeing" and what you call "policing." I'm not sure there's a difference, but I know some folks just have weak stomachs for commonplace disagreement.

Here's an edited version of what I posted, with no reference to anyone else's comments:

Quote:
If you want good products to use, or even to exist, you have to be willing to pay for them.

Many times, rather than going down in price, software products that don't sell well simply get discontinued, or they get blown out as development is ceasing and future support will be wound down. So if you think a product is great but should sell at a lower price, there's no guarantee you ever get to use it cheaply while it's still a live, supported product.

It is rare that prices fall significantly without a substantial loss of features (Breverb) or crumbling support structure.
I hope that's more clear.

Mostly, I'm just glad to see some other voices chime in on the side of valuing -- and being willing to pay for -- a high-quality, professional product. Those who have never produced anything of significant value often have trouble grasping why anyone would pay for someone else's work.

If this is a truly great reverb, I would expect to pay as much as Altiverb, or at least half that much. Of course, I would prefer to pay less, but there's something to be said for catering to the professional and semi-pro markets rather than just anyone with a credit card.

JSL
Old 6th January 2010
  #489
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken View Post
Who said it should cost $50 - get your hand off it.
I did not mean to sound like that. Take my apology for that.

Back on topic.
Old 6th January 2010
  #490
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Software pricing theory is an interesting area, because there is essentially no COGS, and the price should be set to maximize earnings in the long run.

But then there are things like Veblen effects where the higher something is priced the better people perceive it to be. For instance, I think EOS and Redline might be viewed as incredible pieces of mythology if they were priced equal to the Bricasti M7. If the Bricasti was priced at $400 people would compare it to the Lexicon MX400 (which may have also been Casey's programming?).

So there's a lot of psychology involved and then there is also the ego of the manufacturer and the vanity level of market they aspire to. If this is intended to be roughly as exclusive as the real 480L then it will cost over $1000 but if they are trying to maximize their revenues then maybe the $300 range would be more like it.

I imagine there will be at least a discount bundle with the RMX16 clone and if I like the plugin I may wait for that, unless there is a great intro price offer.

I think as consumers you most certainly should know that you are boss and software is more susceptible to supply-and-demand pricing pressure than anything. Exercise your authority and only pay what you feel is fair. Eos, Redline, Reverberate, lots of outstanding cheap choices that do the job very well. If you resent the fact that others can afford something you want, then look for something with Veblen pricing like the Bricasti that you can be the only studio within 100 feet to have.

Oh, and it's pretty hard to go bankrupt as a software developer. Thousands of people will buy virtually anything shiny just as shelfware. You can always feed yourself and your computer and and compiler and speakers cost less than $10000. Software companies that shut down usually had someone inexperienced over-leverage them and get bitterly disappointed, but a guy in his second bedroom having fun can make a living at any price point as long as they stay awake.
Old 6th January 2010
  #491
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jslevin's Avatar
Where a software developer can go bankrupt is when the cost of supporting your product starts to exceed your operating profit from ongoing revenues and operating costs. Which is a big detterent to developing VST plugs. Keep in mind, too, that there is certainly COGS if you're still dealing with retail channels.

No question that price plays a significant role in perceived value. I bought a Kurzweil digital piano back when they made a cheap thing for $600. It's not clear to me to this day whether it sounds any different than the stuff they sell for $3000 (although for my application, it doesn't matter much, since it's basically an audio body double for a seven-foot Steinway). No doubt the same questions apply to Lexicon, TC and other hardware reverbs that have reached down to unwashed-masses price points.

Keep in mind, though, that the best price for long-term profits isn't necessarily static. You can drive up initial sales with introductory pricing; this does some damage to your perceived value but hopefully not too much. You can then do premium pricing for a fairly long stretch, then maybe dabble in some bundling once the product is basically sold into the core market. By then you're on to new versions. The support cycle is short enough that it ultimately ends up being more productive to release a new version rather than significantly lower pricing after a few years on the market.

Quote:
I think as consumers you most certainly should know that you are boss and software is more susceptible to supply-and-demand pricing pressure than anything. Exercise your authority and only pay what you feel is fair.
I'd like to agree, but as a provider of professional services, I have to say that "fair" is a concept only for amateurs to consider. (Maybe that's what you meant by "consumers.) As a business, we think about value. We pay what it's worth to us, which is measured in terms of our ability to produce superior results that are part of the value we give our customers, and also in terms of alternatives to the product at hand.

Sonnox Dynamics was a counter-example for us. The price is pretty high. There are lots of very good alternatives. Ultimately, though, we came to feel that the difference, and the differentiation, were worth the extra cost. I would say the same for a few other products like Crane Song Phoenix, Altiverb, Melodyne, etc. We purchase with ears and eyes wide open, and we love a good bargain. Ultimately, though, we pay "full retail" for value when that's the best option available.

Or to quote Clint Eastwood, "Deserve's got nothing to do with it."

JSL
Old 6th January 2010
  #492
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
Oh, and it's pretty hard to go bankrupt as a software developer.
So, you haven't lived in the Bay Area that long, have you?

Seriously, when the wife and I left in 2001, we couldn't find a U-Haul out of town. Everyone was leaving, and no one was moving into SF. The whole Bay Area was full of software development companies that went under. The company (Analog Devices) that acquired the company I worked at (Staccato Systems) ended up moving our division into shiny new office buildings in San Jose, where it looked like a neutron bomb had gone up: beautiful business infrastructure, devoid of people.

Quote:
You can always feed yourself and your computer and and compiler and speakers cost less than $10000.
Yeah, but how much does your education cost? You need to learn a LOT before you can put together reverbs as good as the ones Warp69 has put out in the last few years. This implies either a long and pricey EE degree, or (more likely) a lot of time woodshedding, working on learning the theory needed while trying to make a living at the same time. Plus, if you are emulating a 480L, you will need to buy a 480L in order to know what you are talking about. Or at least have one on long-term loan. Then, you have to learn the details of the various incompatible plugin formats, as well as the GUI toolkits, and you may need to put money down on some 3rd party solution to the GUI/cross-platform issues, such as Juce or the Phonoxone PXDK.

Still, the hardware tools needed ARE cheap, especially compared to embedded system development. I worked on developing code for Analog Devices chips for many years, and you do need to pony up around $10K just for the compiler, the development boards, and the high-speed emulator needed for debugging. Add $3K for MATLAB, $1500 for a decent set of speakers, and the costs are getting up there. Meanwhile, buy any Mac today, and you have your compiler and a decent testing environment (GarageBand) for free. Add a few hundred $$$ for Windows and a VST host, and you are in business. All that is needed is the actual learning and work.

I had to Google what COGS was. You are right in that has no real relevance to plugins. The main cost of plugins is time.
Old 6th January 2010
  #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello View Post
So, you haven't lived in the Bay Area that long, have you?
I started out with nothing more than a bicycle in Santa Clara in 1993. Apple had to give me a machine to develop on. By the end of 1994 I was driving a sports car and on the front page of the Merc a few years later.

I think your plugin is underpriced, frankly. But the advantage is even without a demo people are raving about what a steal it is. I am sorry to learn of your struggles and wish you the very best in the future. You're clearly a brilliant developer.

Old 6th January 2010
  #494
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ORyan87's Avatar
Something this Reverb makes people throw knifes @ each other.....lol
Old 7th January 2010
  #495
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Casey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
I started out with nothing more than a bicycle in Santa Clara in 1993. Apple had to give me a machine to develop on. By the end of 1994 I was driving a sports car and on the front page of the Merc a few years later.
Bill Warner worked with me at Apollo Computer. When he left the company we would let him in every night after the suits went home to use our vacated workstations to develop the first AVID software.



-Casey
Old 7th January 2010
  #496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey View Post
Bill Warner worked with me at Apollo Computer. When he left the company we would let him in every night after the suits went home to use our vacated workstations to develop the first AVID software.
Yeah...I became friends with the Santa Clara Police chief, and he used to tell stories about how it was such a sleepy town in the early 70's there was nothing to do at night. But there was this crazy guy who had the lights burning bright in his garage all night long, working on some contraption, and they used to go there and hang out and chat with him through the wee hours.

(It was Nolan Bushnell, developing a game called "Pong." )
Old 7th January 2010
  #497
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
I started out with nothing more than a bicycle in Santa Clara in 1993. Apple had to give me a machine to develop on. By the end of 1994 I was driving a sports car and on the front page of the Merc a few years later.
Alrighty, you lived there longer than I did (college 1988-1992, job from 1999 to 2001). And it sounds like you did just fine for yourself. Sorry about the cranky rant. Things aren't as bad as I may have painted them, as I ended up working remotely through most of the rest of the oughts.

For whatever reason, I know a lot of people that ended up working at poorly managed software houses in the early 2000's. Maybe this is the issue: not software development itself, but the management and other infrastructure. Most of the developers I knew were very good, but the organization of the company was like swimming through jello. A single developer, or a few developers, can work at a much faster rate. On the other hand, the breadth of experience and knowledge you get with a larger team is lost with a one or two man company.

This brings us back to the subject of this thread. I am excited to see how Warp69's plugin does under his own brand. He has done nice work for IK Multimedia and SSL, but releasing work under the Relab brand is a pretty big leap, and I wish him the best of luck.
Old 7th January 2010
  #498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
If you want it to be cheap, there's a very simple way to get what you want...don't buy it.
While I don't agree that there is a direct effect on pricing of one lost sale, many lost sales may have a significant effect. To me, this is just common sense, "vote with your money."

Quote:
Originally Posted by jslevin View Post
This is horrible advice, to everyone involved. It's even worse than your ITB mixing advice in that other thread (and that's really saying something).
This struck me as a borderline argumentum ad hominem, plus it seemed to be arguing against the common sense as stated above... for what, the sake of argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jslevin View Post
...explain to me where the line is crossed between "disagreeing" and what you call "policing."
I suppose one example would be being judgmental about the source over the content... yes, like I was. In addition, I was rude.

Your further explanation seems like good common sense to me. The real drama here and now is about the pricing of this product: price it lower... sell more, and vice versa. Again, this is just common sense.

Good software is getting cheaper and cheaper. I bought over 30 plug-ins during the last year or so for about $1200. That includes the Sonnox native Elite bundle and Reactor. In the two years before that, I spent about $1500 for 6 or 7.

Back to this product: I think it will be priced at a premium, though I also think that it would probably make more money if it were priced significantly lower. I believe the latter would also make it less of a piracy target.

Anyway, I'm just speculating like everyone else. If you can provide a good native product at a price that is attractive to the hobbyist market, and that is also a useful tool to professionals, I think you're in the best spot these days.
Old 7th January 2010
  #499
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I have one obvious word for anyone interested in the current state of software pricing:

iPhone.


(this message pecked into one in fact)
Old 7th January 2010
  #500
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
I have one obvious word for anyone interested in the current state of software pricing:

iPhone.


(this message pecked into one in fact)
Somewhere I read an article where someone did the math on the iPhone app sales versus number of developers on the store, and figured out that the average app made about $2K. Ouch.

I know that some companies make a lot more. In the audio app world, Smule has undoubtedly sold several hundred copies of their apps, if not millions. However, they have $5.5 million in VC funding (at least last I checked) that will need to be taken care of when all the profits are said and done.
Old 7th January 2010
  #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello View Post
Somewhere I read an article where someone did the math on the iPhone app sales versus number of developers on the store, and figured out that the average app made about $2K. Ouch.

I know that some companies make a lot more. In the audio app world, Smule has undoubtedly sold several hundred copies of their apps, if not millions. However, they have $5.5 million in VC funding (at least last I checked) that will need to be taken care of when all the profits are said and done.
Often what happens is $5.5 is approved but doled out on a milestone basis, and may never actually end up paid in in full. But however it is, that's an example of over-leveraging a little software shop that could probably have bootstrapped just fine. The VC thing is much like being a signed artist, it's used for pr as a seal of approval... But if you do great work it will be found regardless. (an unsigned album I did last year just got a pretty huge award nom a few hours ago and frankly I have no idea how they even found it)
Old 7th January 2010
  #502
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
Often what happens is $5.5 is approved but doled out on a milestone basis, and may never actually end up paid in in full. But however it is, that's an example of over-leveraging a little software shop that could probably have bootstrapped just fine.
I think that it is just the CCRMA / Stanford way of things. Staccato Systems was a similar shop: based on licensed CCRMA technology, with the inventors of the technology also working at the company, and funded by venture capital. The sale of Staccato to Analog Devices made money for the VCs, CCRMA, the founders, and the employees (probably in that order).

Ge Wang, the main Smule guy, is a (fairly) new hire at CCRMA, and his efforts are attracting press that CCRMA hasn't seen in a while. The whole Smule thing may not turn into a long-term profitable company, but it has put the spotlight on CCRMA and physical modeling again. So they've got that going for them. Which is nice.
Old 7th January 2010
  #503
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Sean,

Really digging the ValhallaFreqEcho!

Thanks!
Old 7th January 2010
  #504
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teacue's Avatar
 

I pray for the same price range as the EMpTy 250
Oh ... and for a surround version too heh
Old 7th January 2010
  #505
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as long as plugins sound as good or better than hardware units we shouldnt regard them
as plugins anymore
think it is a matter of perception which only can be changed once demos are out

in the long term we save money on plugs which replace racks of FX units in hybrid systems
Old 7th January 2010
  #506
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by teacue View Post
Oh ... and for a surround version too heh
I wonder if the 480L Surround/HD algorithms will be in the new plugin. That particular algorithm I have heard discussed in awed tones by some esteemed folks on this forum.
Old 7th January 2010
  #507
Shy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello View Post
I wonder if the 480L Surround/HD algorithms will be in the new plugin. That particular algorithm I have heard discussed in awed tones by some esteemed folks on this forum.
If it does include the surround algorithms, that may be a very crucial advantage over the Lexicon plugins that will win over quite a few buyers.
Old 7th January 2010
  #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello View Post
I wonder if the 480L Surround/HD algorithms will be in the new plugin. That particular algorithm I have heard discussed in awed tones by some esteemed folks on this forum.
Those algorithms are planned for future updates. The plugin emulates V4.1 with two engines. It does not contain something like the compressor etc.
Old 7th January 2010
  #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp69 View Post
Those algorithms are planned for future updates.
Very nice
Old 7th January 2010
  #510
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp69 View Post
Those algorithms are planned for future updates. The plugin emulates V4.1 with two engines. It does not contain something like the compressor etc.
Hello Warp69,
I'm a blind user from germany and was very lucky, as i heard about your LX480 Plug-in. I have an question about it. It's very important for
the accessibillity, that blind user can work with it. Is the program browser fully accessible by cursor keys?
I work with a Screenreader and it needs Windows standartelements to read the interface. I hope it is possible.
Thanks an sorry for my bad english.
Best Regarts,
Maik
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