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PRO TOOLS HD without analog board ?
Old 15th November 2009
  #1
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PRO TOOLS HD without analog board ?

Is it possible to use a pro tools HD without an analog board for musicians monitoring ?

I will have a HD2, and I usually reccord more than 24 track at the same time . Can I use only the Pro tools mixer for doing musicians mix without latency (if I only use limited EQ that have very little latency )?

I am used to make "complicated" mix for musicians with analog or digital board, and I need to know if I can do the same with a pro tools HD mixer without latency problem (I need 8 stereo mix bus, just simple EQ on each live tracks, ). I need also to do overdub....

I know how latency work inside native system. I know that in PT HD, with delay compensation I can have many plug ins on track allready recorded without causing more dealy on live rec traks (that I want to monitor). I need to know if in real use the delay of just the routing inside the mixers of PTHD cause latency problems with musicians for monitoring.

Thank you
Old 15th November 2009
  #2
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drew's Avatar
PTHD will do exactly what you need assuming you've got enough I/O.
Old 15th November 2009
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drew View Post
PTHD will do exactly what you need assuming you've got enough I/O.
Hello,

Yes I will have enough I/O. I will have all my preamp connected directly to input of PT. then mix inside and take 8 output to a hearback individual mixer systems for musicians.

For the moment I use digital performer. I have all my preamp send Y to the AD and to a mackie 48 tracks mixer that I use only for the monitoring. I will replace all of taht with a HD2 if I can be sure that latency is not a problem .

In big sessions, it's is just impossible to use a native system without latency, that's why I have kept the mackie board, but it take a lot of space just for monitoring....
Old 15th November 2009
  #4
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drew's Avatar
I do what you're planning to do all the time. Both with and without a Hearback or Aviom. It will work perfectly, no extra analog hardware needed.
Old 15th November 2009
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drew View Post
I do what you're planning to do all the time. Both with and without a Hearback or Aviom. It will work perfectly, no extra analog hardware needed.
Just to be sure, you have done that with multi musicians sessions, not only voice overdub on allready recorded multi tracks ?
Old 16th November 2009
  #6
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dbjp's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by silo View Post
Just to be sure, you have done that with multi musicians sessions, not only voice overdub on allready recorded multi tracks ?
You'll be fine with multiple musicians. It's done all over the world every single day!
Old 16th November 2009
  #7
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drew's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbjp View Post
You'll be fine with multiple musicians. It's done all over the world every single day!
What he said!! Standard operating procedure for PTHD.
Old 16th November 2009
  #8
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Even when I have HD I still appreciate an analog cue mixing console because of knob-per-function direct control. When someone points at her mic and gives the thumbs up I am not going to go fiddling around with the mouse looking for the proper send window to open and click and raise it. And no an Icon isn't much better in that regard.

I'd stand pat.
Old 16th November 2009
  #9
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Geert van den Berg's Avatar
 

Setting up Cue mixes in PT HD is very nice, because you can easily copy the fader balance to the sends or with a control surface you can flip the sends to the faders, which makes it easier to setup up individual cue mixes very fast.
Old 16th November 2009
  #10
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drew's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
... And no an Icon isn't much better in that regard.
Riiight.


Dude, I've seen your posts around here lately as well as the DUC. You've obviously got an ax to grind. Let it go man, it's just recording gear.
Old 16th November 2009
  #11
Gear Addict
 
andrewenson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by silo View Post
Is it possible to use a pro tools HD without an analog board for musicians monitoring ?

I will have a HD2, and I usually reccord more than 24 track at the same time . Can I use only the Pro tools mixer for doing musicians mix without latency (if I only use limited EQ that have very little latency )?

I am used to make "complicated" mix for musicians with analog or digital board, and I need to know if I can do the same with a pro tools HD mixer without latency problem (I need 8 stereo mix bus, just simple EQ on each live tracks, ). I need also to do overdub....

I know how latency work inside native system. I know that in PT HD, with delay compensation I can have many plug ins on track allready recorded without causing more dealy on live rec traks (that I want to monitor). I need to know if in real use the delay of just the routing inside the mixers of PTHD cause latency problems with musicians for monitoring.

Thank you
I have an HD2 system. I'm using an older Control24. Its not an analogue board :D
Old 16th November 2009
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drew View Post
What he said!! Standard operating procedure for PTHD.
Thank you for the answers.

So I have a mackie 8 bus to sell !!!
Old 16th November 2009
  #13
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dubrichie's Avatar
just be careful about what plugins you use while recording.

some RTAS plugins can have wacky effects on delay compensation.

for example, i can't use any UAD stuff while recording. they mess up the delay compensation and the musicians hear latency. but they're fine when mixing.

stick to TDM plugins when recording and you won't have any problems.
Old 16th November 2009
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubrichie View Post
just be careful about what plugins you use while recording.

some RTAS plugins can have wacky effects on delay compensation.

for example, i can't use any UAD stuff while recording. they mess up the delay compensation and the musicians hear latency. but they're fine when mixing.

stick to TDM plugins when recording and you won't have any problems.
Digi recommend you track without delay compensation on - and because UAD or any other non-TDM DSP-reliant plugins induce significant delay, you can't ever use them for tracking, on a TDM rig or otherwise.

Likewise avoid master fader plugins while tracking.
Old 16th November 2009
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by drew View Post
Riiight.


Dude, I've seen your posts around here lately as well as the DUC. You've obviously got an ax to grind. Let it go man, it's just recording gear.
Seriously?! Gearslutz number 1 PT basher is on the DUC?! business is slow huh!

Something makes me think he's never used an Icon properly either - not that I know so much about them, but I know how easy this sort of thing was on pro control so it's gotta be quicker and easier on icon right?
Old 18th November 2009
  #16
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C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
but I know how easy this sort of thing was on pro control so it's gotta be quicker and easier on icon right?
uhu ...


Chris
Old 18th November 2009
  #17
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s.d.finley's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
but I know how easy this sort of thing was on pro control so it's gotta be quicker and easier on icon right?
Pretty easy on a C/24 also, as long as you have your multi cues already patched in and named in your I/O section.
Old 18th November 2009
  #18
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dbjp's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Digi recommend you track without delay compensation on - and because UAD or any other non-TDM DSP-reliant plugins induce significant delay, you can't ever use them for tracking, on a TDM rig or otherwise.

Likewise avoid master fader plugins while tracking.
I know this subject has been repeated to death, particularly by kara***d***/userofgear, but it's absolutely fine to track with delay compensation on. It's particularly a must if you've got quite a lot of TDM plugins across the board (like overdubbing during a mix). Works fine, and that's the only way I go about it now.
Now UAD and certain RTAS plugins I haven't no idea about.

EDIT:
How come the letters 'o k y' are censored?

Last edited by dbjp; 18th November 2009 at 11:42 AM.. Reason: question
Old 18th November 2009
  #19
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blackcatdigi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geert van den Berg View Post
Setting up Cue mixes in PT HD is very nice, because you can easily copy the fader balance to the sends or with a control surface you can flip the sends to the faders, which makes it easier to setup up individual cue mixes very fast.
Exactly. I've got a tracking template setup so sends 1-5 are solo safe cue mixes. Flip through them quickly to set cue levels and I can still solo or mute in the CR without affecting anyones' personal mix. Works perfectly. Another of the reasons I have so much I/O!!!
Old 19th November 2009
  #20
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Silo,

just make sure you dial-down the HW buffer to 128. (and I agree with turning of ADC, there's no point to it when everything is in record, anyway)

I do a lot of midi composition, and often have to use a 256 buffer, but that will kill you when recording a rhythm section through the converters.

Luckily, Protools HD has significantly lower latency than native DAWS, so a 128 buffer works quite well. I sure wish we could go to 64, though.
Old 19th November 2009
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbjp View Post
I know this subject has been repeated to death, particularly by kara***d***/userofgear, but it's absolutely fine to track with delay compensation on. It's particularly a must if you've got quite a lot of TDM plugins across the board (like overdubbing during a mix). Works fine, and that's the only way I go about it now.
Now UAD and certain RTAS plugins I haven't no idea about.

EDIT:
How come the letters 'o k y' are censored?
Digi recommend you don't. I agree, I've never had an issue, but as a matter of course I try to remember to turn it off!

Even if you're overdubbing on a mix, you should disable any mix buss plugins of course.
Old 19th November 2009
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcatdigi View Post
Exactly. I've got a tracking template setup so sends 1-5 are solo safe cue mixes. Flip through them quickly to set cue levels and I can still solo or mute in the CR without affecting anyones' personal mix. Works perfectly. Another of the reasons I have so much I/O!!!
Hello, how do you solo safe only the sends output on tracks ? I want to be abble to do solo on main out, but leave the send of all traks always active. I have seen in the manual that you can solo safe traks, but I havent seen how you can safe only the send.

I want to do as on monitor consoles, so I can have my mix and solo completly independent of the sends. Of course I don't want the the musician's monitors turn off when I listen in solo the kicks in the control room !!!


Can I do that with selecting for exemple bus 1-2 for sends on each channel, then create an aux tracks with bus 1-2 as input, and physical output to the headphones systems, and I solo safe this aux track ? Are the send on each channel muted when I solo a track , or does it work like that way ?
Old 19th November 2009
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by silo View Post
Hello, how do you solo safe only the sends output on tracks ? I want to be abble to do solo on main out, but leave the send of all traks always active. I have seen in the manual that you can solo safe traks, but I havent seen how you can safe only the send.

I want to do as on monitor consoles, so I can have my mix and solo completly independent of the sends. Of course I don't want the the musician's monitors turn off when I listen in solo the kicks in the control room !!!
Pre fade sends.
Old 19th November 2009
  #24
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Nash_Dred's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by silo View Post
Hello, how do you solo safe only the sends output on tracks ? I want to be abble to do solo on main out, but leave the send of all traks always active. I have seen in the manual that you can solo safe traks, but I havent seen how you can safe only the send.

I want to do as on monitor consoles, so I can have my mix and solo completly independent of the sends. Of course I don't want the the musician's monitors turn off when I listen in solo the kicks in the control room !!!
The Hearback is a great piece of gear. Assuming I'm using the standard 8-channel hearback system, here's how I route things:

1) Create 6 mono master faders and one stereo master fader. Set the I/O on each track to correspond to the physical output that will feed your hearback rack unit.

2) Go to View>Mix Window Views>Sends F-J; Then go to View>Sends F-J>Send F. You can use this second bank of sends to route the cues from each track accordingly. You will still have sends A-E for effects. Create sends to the appropriate outputs, make them pre-fader (the blue 'p' button) and option click the send fader to bring it to unity. You can now option-drag these sends from track to track to save time rather than creating new ones for each.

3) Go back to the master faders you created. Insert limiters, compressors, eqs to your liking, but remember to use only plug-ins which add very little delay.

4) Set your buffer size to something small. 32 samples preferably, but this will depend on your computer.

Hope this helps!
Old 19th November 2009
  #25
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Forgot to mention! The normal hearback has 6 linkable mono channels and 1 stereo channel. For this setup, I'm using the mono channels unlinked and sending effects like reverb and delay to the stereo '1-2' channel.
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