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New Melodyne Still Degrade Audio?
Old 28th February 2013
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Famous Yard View Post
@EricBradley I wish you'd followed the test but there you go. In the spirit of research I will tune the first word and see how it affects the rest of the file. I'll do it in the morning as it is late here. Re. the spectrograms you posted if you flip between them you can see that the frequency balance has changed on the first section- the tuned bit - but to me it looks the same on the rest of it, but the picture is a little darker. I don't know what significance that has in your software.
I apologise for spoiling the party but I thought this thread was about if Melodyne degrades audio or not.

The spectogram is darker after the 1.5 second mark because there is less energy in the highs.
Old 28th February 2013
  #62
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricBradley View Post
I apologise for spoiling the party but I thought this thread was about if Melodyne degrades audio or not.

The spectogram is darker after the 1.5 second mark because there is less energy in the highs.
I see. It looked as if it was darker all over to me when flipping back and forth.

I was a bit annoyed there weren't more responses to the comparison because there were quite a few people complaining about it. But yes, the thread is about testing Melodyne and you are joining in on that so fair enough. No problem. Testing is the main thing so we can all get some answers which help our work choices.
Old 28th February 2013
  #63
Quote:
Originally Posted by djanthonyw View Post
My guess for audio ran through Melodyne:

1a
2b
3b
Fwiw the Melodyne'd files were 1a, 2b and 3a. However in my software they null with the raw files.

EDIT : for factual error!
Old 28th February 2013
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Famous Yard View Post
Fwiw the Melodyne'd files were 1a, 2b and 3b. However in my software they null with the raw files.
Old 28th February 2013
  #65
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I'm gonna call shenanigans on that guess. There's *NO* way you heard a difference. My guess? You analyzed them, and saw they were inverted.
Old 28th February 2013
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhager84 View Post
I'm gonna call shenanigans on that guess. There's *NO* way you heard a difference. My guess? You analyzed them, and saw they were inverted.
Then how did I pick the correct ones?
Old 28th February 2013
  #67
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They were inverted, so when you analyze the waveform, you'll see it starts in the negative. A control blunder on the uploader's behalf I'm afraid. No offense intended.

I'm sorry, but they null down to -130 something dB. Absolutely imperceptible...
Old 28th February 2013
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhager84 View Post
They were inverted, so when you analyze the waveform, you'll see it starts in the negative. A control blunder on the uploader's behalf I'm afraid. No offense intended.

I'm sorry, but they null down to -130 something dB. Absolutely imperceptible...
My point is how would I know which ones were inverted and which was original? If I was guessing on the inversion, I could have still been wrong because if you just look at two inverted waveforms, there's still no way to tell which one was original.
Old 1st March 2013
  #69
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I think I mentioned this earlier.
I export a track from pro tools into melodyne standalone editor. I don't change a thing and then import it back into pro tools and I hear the high frequency degradation and it definitely does not null.

Yes, I do doubt a client would ever hear it, especially not without hearing a solo'd track and of course they'd like it after melodyne since it will be better in tune, they would definitely prefer that.

But I hear it and it bugs me, so I'm another waves tune convert.
Old 1st March 2013
  #70
I hear the change as well, on audio that is recorded into melodyne, but not modified - it's like the harmonic structure is messed up somehow - I just dont "feel" the part as much anymore (I use the most recent version of the plugin)

for this reason I only drop in a few notes here and there where it is critical

not scientific, but I came to this conclusion on my own based on my experiences during mixing with melodyne - this is good enough for me to give advice to myself
Old 1st March 2013
  #71
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Looks like the Voodoo method is still alive and well. I'll enjoy degrading my clients' vocal tracks, thanks...

Again, -130db null is absolutely inaudible for a human. There's no way around it.
Old 1st March 2013
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ol drippy View Post
I think I mentioned this earlier.
I export a track from pro tools into melodyne standalone editor. I don't change a thing and then import it back into pro tools and I hear the high frequency degradation and it definitely does not null.

Yes, I do doubt a client would ever hear it, especially not without hearing a solo'd track and of course they'd like it after melodyne since it will be better in tune, they would definitely prefer that.

But I hear it and it bugs me, so I'm another waves tune convert.
Yup, WavesTune is what I like now as well.
Old 1st March 2013
  #73
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Under such recommendations, I've picked up WT as well for 71 bucks from Audiodeluxe. I'll run it through its paces, and see how she stacks up.
Old 1st March 2013
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djanthonyw View Post
Melodyne's artifacts remind me of badly encoded MP3s.
This is exactly what I hear too and the loss of the highs.
Old 1st March 2013
  #75
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What version are you guys using? What DAW? I'm really at a loss, because I use it all the time (very conservatively) and I can't hear any difference aside from the changes I make. Maybe the delay compensation is funky? :shrug:
Old 1st March 2013
  #76
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Famous Yard View Post
Fwiw the Melodyne'd files were 1a, 2b and 3b. However in my software they null with the raw files.
Apologies. The results were the Melodyne files were 1a, 2b and 3a. Sorry for confusion. So you got 2 out of three.

However as they null then I'm afraid there really is no difference so it is random. You really can't hear anything.

If anyone are seriously convinced that you can hear something then I'll put up more tests. You will see your score drift towards 50% the more you do. If it nulls there is NO difference.
Old 1st March 2013
  #77
Quote:
Originally Posted by ol drippy View Post
I think I mentioned this earlier.
I export a track from pro tools into melodyne standalone editor. I don't change a thing and then import it back into pro tools and I hear the high frequency degradation and it definitely does not null.

Yes, I do doubt a client would ever hear it, especially not without hearing a solo'd track and of course they'd like it after melodyne since it will be better in tune, they would definitely prefer that.

But I hear it and it bugs me, so I'm another waves tune convert.
Could you post a short example of before and after Melodyne? I'd like to hear what's going on for you because I'm not hearing any problems. Thanks.
Old 1st March 2013
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Famous Yard View Post
Could you post a short example of before and after Melodyne? I'd like to hear what's going on for you because I'm not hearing any problems. Thanks.
Yeah I can post something when I get home tonight. I'll have to find solo vocal I can use, I don't want to post any of my clients stuff.
Old 1st March 2013
  #79
Quote:
Originally Posted by ol drippy View Post
Yeah I can post something when I get home tonight. I'll have to find solo vocal I can use, I don't want to post any of my clients stuff.
That would be great. Thanks.
Old 1st March 2013
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Famous Yard View Post
In the spirit of research I will tune the first word and see how it affects the rest of the file. I'll do it in the morning as it is late here.
Did you have time to test this?

Here are two additional spectrograms of the same files I posted earlier.
Changed the sensitivity and focused on the area above 7 kHz.
First picture is not processed. Second has the first note processed.
Attached Thumbnails
New Melodyne Still Degrade Audio?-not_2.jpg   New Melodyne Still Degrade Audio?-melodyned-_2.jpg  
Old 7th July 2013
  #81
I recently got a new update to Melodyne Editor and it now sounds transparent to me - I no longer have the concerns I did earlier in the thread - not sure what changed, but it was a significant improvement to me...
Old 8th July 2013
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtoe View Post
I recently got a new update to Melodyne Editor and it now sounds transparent to me - I no longer have the concerns I did earlier in the thread - not sure what changed, but it was a significant improvement to me...
Which update is it? Weren't you using the newest version a couple months ago?
Old 8th July 2013
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricBradley View Post
Did you have time to test this?

Here are two additional spectrograms of the same files I posted earlier.
Changed the sensitivity and focused on the area above 7 kHz.
First picture is not processed. Second has the first note processed.
You *do* realize that pitches are frequencies, right? I mean, of *course* you're going to change the frequency response of the source; You're editing the frequencies!

The real question is: Does it sound 'bad?'
Old 8th July 2013
  #84
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I only notice degradation when I am hitting it hard. But, if I have to use Melodyne that hard its better to redo the take. Its faster to do a retake then spend hours fixing a bad take.

Melodyne is best used to fix that annoying note that would spoil an otherwise great take. I try to use it as little as possible, but it is indispensable. It is a special tool.
Old 8th July 2013
  #85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
Which update is it? Weren't you using the newest version a couple months ago?
Not quite sure of what version I was using when I could hear a degradation issue with no processing (just with the audio captured), but I noticed a short while back that I needed an update and it has sounded better since then - for the plugin AU version (Editor) in Ableton Live 8
Old 8th July 2013
  #86
Is it possible you changed the sample rate you're using?

Melodyne by it's nature will always cause a little degradation to the audio, but at higher sample rates the differences should be less noticeable with no addiitonal tuning etc involved.

I actually find Melodyne to be far better at customizing samples than fixing vocals, I guess we're so attuned to the sound of the voice that any slight deviation shoves it into the audio equivalent of the uncanny valley, I admire those who can get a transparent result out of it with vox, but it's not easy and I agree with the previous poster who said it's less painful to just re-do the take.
Old 8th July 2013
  #87
Same sample rate, but I just looked back in my emails and I actually upgraded from Assistant to Editor when it told me to update - I thought the algorithm was supposed to be the same, but maybe there is a difference there?
Old 8th July 2013
  #88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtoe View Post
Not quite sure of what version I was using when I could hear a degradation issue with no processing (just with the audio captured), but I noticed a short while back that I needed an update and it has sounded better since then - for the plugin AU version (Editor) in Ableton Live 8
Did you not approve of the test earlier in the thread which showed no change at all to unprocessed audio? The files nulled when one was polarity inverted. They are identical. There is no degradation.
Old 8th July 2013
  #89
I go by what I hear in person - I heard something objectionable and now I don't - that's always going to mean more to me than a null test on GS.
Old 8th July 2013
  #90
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie View Post
Is it possible you changed the sample rate you're using?

Melodyne by it's nature will always cause a little degradation to the audio
But it doesn't. Audio in Melodyne is identical until you process something (change pitch or formant etc.). When you change the pitch then of course things will change, although this is processing rather than "degradation". How good it sounds after processing is a matter of taste and opinion and depends very much on the source. Before processing it is not a matter of opinion because it can be demonstrated to be identical to the source.
Quote:
but at higher sample rates the differences should be less noticeable with no addiitonal tuning etc involved.
Why will it be less noticeable at higher sample rates? Higher sample rates just add the very high frequency content. The difference between recording at 48kHz and 96kHz is you are adding the audio frequencies from about 24-48kHz. That is all. It's not "higher quality", it just records a higher set of frequencies. If there are artefacts lower than 24kHz then you will get them at both sampling frequencies just the same. If there are artefacts above 24kHz then you will hear them MORE at 96 than at 48 (which won't record them at all). However in real life you won't hear anything at 24 kHz or above anyway because it's beyond human hearing.
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