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UA Plugins , possibly native ? Reverb & Delay Plugins
Old 13th November 2009
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
A real Bricasti algo can't fit on a UAD-2 Quad...Casey doesn't want to do a native plug...you gotta pay if you want that particular piece.

In the meantime may I recommend signaltonoize.com for the True M7 impulses (kick Acousticas around the room IMO) running through LiquidSonics Reverberate. Will cost you $50, sorry.
Yeah I know - stupid me, and wishful thinking. Oh, regarding the IR, I run the signaltonoize True M7s in Waves IR-1. Its cool in so many ways - in fact its my go-to as far as IR is concerned - but its still not quite a real Bricasti. I was hoping that Casey may reconsider once the Lexicon native thing hits the market. A UAD & Bricasti alliance would be cool but yeah I'm apprised of the realities especially after Casey kind of made that clear.
Old 13th November 2009
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicogrubert View Post
If I remember correctly from a magazine, 1 instance of a 1176 requires a 1.8 GHz single CPU machine to be calculated so I guess the UAD card is not only a dongle but a real powerful board.
Well, I think they updated those figures as the CPUs became faster ....

A German magazine wrote LN 1176 60% of a 800 MHz P3 .... that was when they first tested the release version and referred back to a trade show ... somewhen around Sept. 2001 (as I went UAD recently I looked for those old tests and read through them again ... so I still remember that )

Also, I think it was mentioned that the run the EMT 250 (?) on a MacBook without pc-card slot in one webzine-movie ...

best
Old 13th November 2009
  #63
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DSP are bound to disappear sooner or later

but as long as they sell their UAD-2 card, there's no way they're going native.

one day they'll have to
Old 13th November 2009
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hankdrummer View Post
but as long as they sell their UAD-2 card, there's no way they're going native.
That's for sure, not mentionning the engagements the company settled regarding their "industrial" production (hardware production requires a lot more than software programming, materially that is) with other partners.

In my opinion, they're scanning the market to see how an entry-priced native plugin or plugin bundle would be percieved by their clients and if it would constitute a good way to gather users towards their hardware solutions. Plus, when you work a marketing placement like UA's, abandoning software and therefore making their DAW products less exclusive is the wrong message to send...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hankdrummer View Post
DSP are bound to disappear sooner or later
I can't disagree more ( but that's only my personal opinion :D ) , i work with DAW's for ages, 10 years ago i could barely dream of what power my laptop has today and i thought i'd be more than covered with just half the power, ram, HD etc. i have today.
We're in a business where there's no end to the search of higher quality and more efficient working environnement, not even mentionning creativity, and we therefore will always be submitted to search for more and more power.
Old 13th November 2009
  #65
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I agree with much of the sentiment here... IMO UA is just testing the waters of public opinion. I'm sure they know the inevitable problem of trying to sustain a dsp based model. Most likely, it's just a question of when.

Personally, I will certainly buy Native UA plugs. This is exciting news.


-SD
Old 13th November 2009
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
it's never gonna happen folks. They've got a working business model - as a business owner, you dont change your model to something more risky. What you guys "want" in no way is reflected in what suppliers will offer if the risk is high.

lol

They have "had" a working business model. The UAD2 is already long in the tooth with the new i7/i5. When the next generation of Intel processors come out they will totally blow UAD out of the water. Native plugins are now rivaling UAD plugs if not surpassing them. The issue is scalability. Native plugs will be able to scale along with native processors as they become faster. UA can start modeling harmonics/non-linearities etc (as we have seen in Fatso) but at a higher cost of dsp resources. Eventually we will have to have 4 UAD2 QUADs in out computers to run these "hungry" plugins. And let's not even mention latency. With native plugins I can run at a 32 buffer. A half loaded UAD2 Quad makes me have to run at 128 and above.

I have been a UAD owner since 2001 but I have to admit I am seriously considering ditching it.
Old 13th November 2009
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
it's never gonna happen folks. They've got a working business model - as a business owner, you dont change your model to something more risky. What you guys "want" in no way is reflected in what suppliers will offer if the risk is high.
you get the main idea, the business model work and still will work for years and if they release native version they have to fight against warez, lose this war and risk bankrupcy just to satisfy people who love to play with laptop and limited hardware of the Imac.

ilok, syncrosoft are still cracked and limited (and they certainly will be forever), dsp card don't

and for those who think the dsp card is too pricey, it would be hard for UA to believe that because they sold more UAD 2 quad than they expect in 2008/2009.

remember how it was hard to have a quad during november/december 2008 (yeah paranoiac people : UA certainly do that themself just to show how they rule the market ).

now it will be UA's choice, but native will be the beggining of the end for them.

UA bring me pro hi end tools that weren't use freely by any kids (unlike waves, sonnox, waves arts, urs, flux, kjaherus, nomad factory, ik, fabfilter, ect ect...)

we pay 250 usd for an uncracked plugin, the idea to pay 750 usd for the same, but cracked, native plugin doesn't really interest me.
Old 13th November 2009
  #68
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Do you ever run out of CPU power in your mix: NO

Do you ever run out of UAD DSP in your mix: YES


Those two survey questions/answers should be just as telling to the Uni Audio folks as the actual questions about native plugins....
Old 13th November 2009
  #69
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Do you ever run out of CPU power in your mix: YES

Do you ever run out of UAD DSP in your mix: YES
(okay, I am a UAD-1 owner, but I guess I can easily run out of DSP power)
Old 13th November 2009
  #70
adl
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Not sure if someone said it already, but i really don´t think they´ll go native so soon after they released the UAD2 (only one year ago!).
Old 13th November 2009
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choukette View Post
you get the main idea, the business model work and still will work for years and if they release native version they have to fight against warez, lose this war and risk bankrupcy just to satisfy people who love to play with laptop and limited hardware of the Imac.

ilok, syncrosoft are still cracked and limited (and they certainly will be forever), dsp card don't

and for those who think the dsp card is too pricey, it would be hard for UA to believe that because they sold more UAD 2 quad than they expect in 2008/2009.

remember how it was hard to have a quad during november/december 2008 (yeah paranoiac people : UA certainly do that themself just to show how they rule the market ).

now it will be UA's choice, but native will be the beggining of the end for them.

UA bring me pro hi end tools that weren't use freely by any kids (unlike waves, sonnox, waves arts, urs, flux, kjaherus, nomad factory, ik, fabfilter, ect ect...)

we pay 250 usd for an uncracked plugin, the idea to pay 750 usd for the same, but cracked, native plugin doesn't really interest me.

lol Your litmus for a plugin is rather or not it's cracked? I prefer listening for the quality of the plugin. And, plugins on the UAD could totally be kracked. There's nothing special about dsp cards in that sense. It's just the krackers don't deem it worth spending the time when most plugins and users are native based. But I have no doubt they could come up with a keygen to emulate UA's authorization response..
Old 13th November 2009
  #72
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Dysanfel's Avatar
I filled out the survey as well.
Old 13th November 2009
  #73
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rydan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent View Post
I really don't like the idea of having paid out for a dsp card in order to run the plugs, and then have someone downloading the pugs for free, I would be seriously pissed off if that was the case.
I always find these arguments rather strange. The reason I pay for software is to get support, to hopefully make sure the company hangs around to produce more great software for me to buy, and, quite importantly, because it's "the right thing to do". Now, I frankly don't care if someone else is using the same software I use without paying (at least as long as it doesn't make the manufacturer loose too much sales, but that's really another point). If I buy the software, and then someone else uses it for free, how does this affect me? Is my version suddenly not as good because of that? No, not here at least. Also, are you suggesting (not just you you, but people who use this argument in general) that as soon as a plugin is cracked, either download the crack, or stay clear alltogether, since it's all of a sudden worthless? If so, I can see why piracy is hurting the industry.

Seriously, sorry, but I don't get it...
Old 13th November 2009
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
There's nothing special about dsp cards in that sense. It's just the krackers don't deem it worth spending the time when most plugins and users are native based. But I have no doubt they could come up with a keygen to emulate UA's authorization response..
Actually, if the auth system is based on a unique, long, random "ID" stored on each card, that UAD keeps track of, and the algorithm for authorizing a plugin is in hardware or rom code on the card itself, and running on the card DSP, it would be kind of impossible to crack. Oh, and, I actually believe this to be the case.

With enough plugins released you could, perhaps, PERHAPS, reverse-engineer the ID for that specific card using the auth codes for your plugin purchases as data, but I doubt it, since that's a really small data set. And, even if you did, you would still only be able to generate auths for that specific card.
Old 14th November 2009
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
lol Your litmus for a plugin is rather or not it's cracked? I prefer listening for the quality of the plugin. And, plugins on the UAD could totally be kracked. There's nothing special about dsp cards in that sense. It's just the krackers don't deem it worth spending the time when most plugins and users are native based. But I have no doubt they could come up with a keygen to emulate UA's authorization response..
And ow would they have access to the code?
Old 14th November 2009
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
If the Manley emus are really, really good they will print money over there...

I wonder if Eveanna will let them make them really good. I imagine she won't let them suck. But I wonder if she gets jealous!

If they are really, really good I wouldn't be shocked if the prices are ridiculous for a plugin either.
They will be nothing short of great. $299 a pop.
Old 14th November 2009
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinAiken View Post
Do you ever run out of CPU power in your mix: NO

Do you ever run out of UAD DSP in your mix: YES
That´s like asking: Do you spend your money?

The more you have the more you spend.

I managed with two UAD-1´s. Now I´m ordering a Quad and I´m sure I´m gonna max out that ****er too, just because I can.
Old 14th November 2009
  #78
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XAXAU's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rydan View Post
I always find these arguments rather strange. The reason I pay for software is to get support, to hopefully make sure the company hangs around to produce more great software for me to buy, and, quite importantly, because it's "the right thing to do". Now, I frankly don't care if someone else is using the same software I use without paying (at least as long as it doesn't make the manufacturer loose too much sales, but that's really another point). If I buy the software, and then someone else uses it for free, how does this affect me? Is my version suddenly not as good because of that? No, not here at least. Also, are you suggesting (not just you you, but people who use this argument in general) that as soon as a plugin is cracked, either download the crack, or stay clear alltogether, since it's all of a sudden worthless? If so, I can see why piracy is hurting the industry.

Seriously, sorry, but I don't get it...
But you have to agree on that companies that have their plugins cracked generally make crappier plugins than a company that has not got any cracked ones, and where the money flows in to the company (and the employees) which will then get happy in all sorts of manners and code new, better plugins?

This is why I support the UAD dongle. Not happy about the price, but it´s definately worth it. I can´t produce without my UAD plugins.
Old 14th November 2009
  #79
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I hope this happens. There are a lot of UA plugins I would buy, but I've been hesitant to enter the DSP card game. UA would have a much bigger plugin market share if they went native. I never run out of computer DSP. Quad Core Mac Pro.

The Fatso plug alone has almost made me buy a UAD card, but the sheer number of choices, and the fact that a new card will be out in a few years has made me too nervous to finally do it. None of these problems exist if the plugins are native and the user doesn't have to invest in physical hardware that will be dwarfed soon after.
Old 14th November 2009
  #80
Gear Maniac
 

no hardware/software/dongle/ combo's are safe,
look at what happened to the ignorant guys at Steinberg,
it was deemed impossible.

also those dsp cards are not on parr with todays tech, there yesterdays news.
dinosaurs amongst i7's and the new amd offerings.

"if history has taught us anything is that any one can get killed"
Old 14th November 2009
  #81
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Jorg's Avatar
Syncrosoft Dongle sure isnt safe and I wonder if software companies cant claim their money back cause whats the point if this stuff gets cracked.

However I think iLok is pretty safe!

Also they could go the Digidesign like route which could be that you need to have one piece of UA hardware but if the DSP limit is reached you can then run the plugs on your CPU.
Old 14th November 2009
  #82
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7thangelz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XAXAU View Post
But you have to agree on that companies that have their plugins cracked generally make crappier plugins than a company that has not got any cracked ones, and where the money flows in to the company (and the employees) which will then get happy in all sorts of manners and code new, better plugins?
huh?
psp, fabfilter, native instruments...just to name a few, aren't making crappy plugins
Old 14th November 2009
  #83
Gear Guru
 
Animus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rydan View Post
Actually, if the auth system is based on a unique, long, random "ID" stored on each card, that UAD keeps track of, and the algorithm for authorizing a plugin is in hardware or rom code on the card itself, and running on the card DSP, it would be kind of impossible to crack. Oh, and, I actually believe this to be the case.

With enough plugins released you could, perhaps, PERHAPS, reverse-engineer the ID for that specific card using the auth codes for your plugin purchases as data, but I doubt it, since that's a really small data set. And, even if you did, you would still only be able to generate auths for that specific card.
THey could totally crack the algotrthm they use. A code goes out and a code goes back in. That part is not hidden. It's the same difference with ilok and syncrosoft. How do the hacers get access to the encrypted code inside? They hack it of course.
Old 14th November 2009
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XAXAU View Post
They will be nothing short of great. $299 a pop.
And if Eveanna is involved, they will never be included in any discount promotions!
Old 14th November 2009
  #85
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Animus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spicemix View Post
And if Eveanna is involved, they will never be included in any discount promotions!
I will be interested in comparing a UA Massivo emu with my real MP. I am also getting ready to make a Nebula program of my Massive Passive. People were saying they couldn't tell a difference between the Black Master EQ and the API5500 so I will be interested to see if the Massive Passive can be cloned as well.
Old 14th November 2009
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiseg View Post
no hardware/software/dongle/ combo's are safe,
look at what happened to the ignorant guys at Steinberg,
it was deemed impossible.

also those dsp cards are not on parr with todays tech, there yesterdays news.
dinosaurs amongst i7's and the new amd offerings.

"if history has taught us anything is that any one can get killed"
Tried the new WA Saturator?
Old 14th November 2009
  #87
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
lol Your litmus for a plugin is rather or not it's cracked? I prefer listening for the quality of the plugin. And, plugins on the UAD could totally be kracked. There's nothing special about dsp cards in that sense. It's just the krackers don't deem it worth spending the time when most plugins and users are native based. But I have no doubt they could come up with a keygen to emulate UA's authorization response..
think about the lexicon reverb at 1500 usd, you pay it and 2 week later you learn the plugin is cracked and any kid play with it on his latop for nothing (and he doesnt have to support a silly usb key).

this will never arrive with DSP plugin

because you can't run natively the DSP coded plugins on your native CPU even if you emulate authorisation response.

you have to emulate the challenge response with the dsp card and the dsp itself (good luck, this is a lot of work for a so reduced market)
Old 14th November 2009
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adl View Post
Not sure if someone said it already, but i really don´t think they´ll go native so soon after they released the UAD2 (only one year ago!).
you'll be surprised when you dig under the surface and find out how many problems UA have had with the UAD-2 , i bought a UAD-2 that broke for no reason after 9 months i also advised a friend to buy a UAD-2 and his was broke from day one of using it .. so after some fishing around ive found a mass of folk with broken UAD-2's however in all the years i used UAD-1 it was very very rare you came across of broken card.

It would be much easier for UA to peddle Native plugins.....

Remember without a card to they can cut their manufacturing costs dramatically , with software the cost is just programming it and once they have a finished working plugin its just profit profit profit after that with mainly only programming staff to employ , obviously other overheads but nowhere near as many overheads as producing a hardware product such as a DSP card.
Old 14th November 2009
  #89
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rydan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
THey could totally crack the algotrthm they use. A code goes out and a code goes back in. That part is not hidden. It's the same difference with ilok and syncrosoft. How do the hacers get access to the encrypted code inside? They hack it of course.
Well, no. If the code that goes form your computer to the UAD card is verified using code that runs on the DSP of the card, and verified against a long, unique, random generated, ID stored on the card itself, you can't. The codes going in would be unique for each card/plugin combo, and no code comes out, only a ok/not ok, which in turn would only provide gui feedback, so, even if you change that value, the plugin gui would appear to work, but the audio processing wouldn't.

Also, not possible to bypass the call, since the part of the plugin handling sound is on the DSP, which also is responsible for determining if the code is allowed to run. Remember, you have no (reasonable) way of tampering with the code running on the DSP, if the really core parts of that code is in ROM on the card.

The main difference with syncrossoft/ilok is that it's enough to remove the call completely, since all the audio processing happens on the computer CPU. This is not the case with UAD.

In fact, the simplest way to "crack" them would probably be to reverse engineer the algorithms used, and port them to native format...
Old 14th November 2009
  #90
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rydan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XAXAU View Post
But you have to agree on that companies that have their plugins cracked generally make crappier plugins than a company that has not got any cracked ones, and where the money flows in to the company (and the employees) which will then get happy in all sorts of manners and code new, better plugins?
Well, first of all, just because a thousand people use a crack, doesn't mean that a thousand people would buy the plugin if the crack weren't available.

Second, I'm pretty sure the total market for UA would be a lot bigger if they removed the need for extra hardware (and for that matter, slots for said hardware, which is getting increasingly more rare as people move towards laptops. My guess is, more than enough to make up for the revenue lost by those who would have bought it if the crack hadn't been available. In fact, just the possibility to have people demoing your products without the need UAD hardware would probably make a HUGE difference.

Third. I am as of now leaving the UAD platform. I've gone laptop, and have no slots for a UAD card, and, let me tell you, there are other high quality plugins out there. Probably not any better than UAD, but no worse either. You need to look around a bit, but they are there, and they're getting better as well, just as UA is. That being said, if UA went native, I would look no further.
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