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15000 RPM hardrives
Old 16th June 2009
  #1
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15000 RPM hardrives

Do they connect the same way a regular 7200rpm drive does? Whats the difference between SATA 11 and SAS??
Old 16th June 2009
  #2
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You won't be able to use SAS drives in your desktop i7 machine, you can't use SAS drives through a sata controller.
Old 16th June 2009
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warmer View Post
You won't be able to use SAS drives in your desktop i7 machine, you can't use SAS drives through a sata controller.
Thanks!

So how would i be able to use 10RPM 12RPM - 15RPM ?

And is there a big difference between 16mb cache and 32mb cache on any speed hardrive? Even a tiny difference? See i got loads of samples.

Also i was reading abletons manual "even though i have removed the program from my computer " and they say:

Most audio-optimized computers use 7200 RPM drives or faster.

So i am wondering.
Old 16th June 2009
  #4
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how many HDDs were you planning on running? RAID?

if you were planning to get a bunch of em and Raid them. I'd recommend you stay with high capacity 7200rpm 32 mb cache drives.

if using just the one for audio data ( a side from OS boot volume) can pick up WD raptors 10k rpm sata HDDs for a fairly good price.

speed for HDDs involves many factors... high capacity keeps the % used down which helps when seeking data ... cache certainly helps as more data is stored closer when needed.

15k rpm run hot...are marginally faster...and are still fairly pricey.


if you must have the latest greatest.

Intel X25 SSD.... or this > Texas Memory Systems - Products - RamSan-620

cheers
Old 16th June 2009
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuRnitUpsuM View Post
how many HDDs were you planning on running? RAID?

if you were planning to get a bunch of em and Raid them. I'd recommend you stay with high capacity 7200rpm 32 mb cache drives.

if using just the one for audio data ( a side from OS boot volume) can pick up WD raptors 10k rpm sata HDDs for a fairly good price.

speed for HDDs involves many factors... high capacity keeps the % used down which helps when seeking data ... cache certainly helps as more data is stored closer when needed.

15k rpm run hot...are marginally faster...and are still fairly pricey.


if you must have the latest greatest.

Intel X25 SSD.... or this > Texas Memory Systems - Products - RamSan-620

cheers
Hi, No i don't know alot about how RAID works and i have read that it's bad if one disks fails, because the other drives get wiped or something. And you have to back them up with a mirror? I am not sure.

For me it's basically 1 hard drive for audio and samples.
I actually saw somebody else talking about WD raptors 10k rpm sata HDDs.
I had a C drive partitioned to make a D drive, but i got rid of the partition and stuck a old HD to see how it works. then i thought i wouldn't mind getting a faster drive since i am a sample user, plus i feel that it's logical with faster access times and write times.

Yeah solid state drives are supposed to be great and i was interested, but i was put off by the price and something to do with reliablility when recording and then deleting files that you have recorded from them.

Thank you for your advice and help.
Old 16th June 2009
  #6
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why do i have to explain everything to every one every time sheesh..
cant u just take my word for it?

you need

1) OS drive
2) Audio Drive
3) Samples drive (or multiple samples drives if you have massive libararies.)

again usless you have older (giga) disk streaming samples you gain little to nothing from a 10k drive.
you dont want 15k nothing (thats either SCSI a dead product) or SAS an over hyped over rated and over priced product. both require an expensive raid card


10k drives are small and have small cache
7200 drives are large and have large cache....

todays samples PRE FETCH to ram....

what does cache do? uhmmm pre fetch. so this assists your sampling ability.

drive sizes?
once you get past 40-50% full your drives speed dimishes rapidly and exponentially.

so if you buy a 10k 300G drive you cant use more than 120-150G max. not much room.
if you buy a 1TB 32meg cache you can use 500G...

SSD drives: BULLCRAP. useless other than as an OS drive.
sucks as a recording drive
far too small and expensive for samples playback.
would be cool for laptop live gign however.

but hey what do i know?

Scott
ADK

FYI as i told you already the issue you have are not with your drives unless they are dying.

download sisoft sandra it contains a vast amount of tests to check each area of your system.

you are buggered up somewhere~
Old 16th June 2009
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcschild View Post
why do i have to explain everything to every one every time sheesh..
cant u just take my word for it?

you need

1) OS drive
2) Audio Drive
3) Samples drive (or multiple samples drives if you have massive libararies.)

again usless you have older (giga) disk streaming samples you gain little to nothing from a 10k drive.
you dont want 15k nothing (thats either SCSI a dead product) or SAS an over hyped over rated and over priced product. both require an expensive raid card


10k drives are small and have small cache
7200 drives are large and have large cache....

todays samples PRE FETCH to ram....

what does cache do? uhmmm pre fetch. so this assists your sampling ability.

drive sizes?
once you get past 40-50% full your drives speed dimishes rapidly and exponentially.

so if you buy a 10k 300G drive you cant use more than 120-150G max. not much room.
if you buy a 1TB 32meg cache you can use 500G...

SSD drives: BULLCRAP. useless other than as an OS drive.
sucks as a recording drive
far too small and expensive for samples playback.
would be cool for laptop live gign however.

but hey what do i know?

Scott
ADK

FYI as i told you already the issue you have are not with your drives unless they are dying.

download sisoft sandra it contains a vast amount of tests to check each area of your system.

you are buggered up somewhere~
Okay thank you.

Thanks for explaining the bit about CACHE and how it works with samples.

So SSD are good for OS and programs?

And about the drives. I know that it might not be the issue with regards to pops ect but i am in need of a new drive as i have deleted the partition and expanded the drive back to what it was before it was partitioned. I think i heard that having a different disk is better than running your audio on the same disk... in other words, the C drive. and i felt that the partition was basically the same disk.
I want a physically different drive for audio and your even talking about a different disk for samples. so i probably will get one now and the other later.

Also i will download that sisoft sandra thing you advised about. thank you.

Scott why do ableton say about getting faster drives for audio?

All this help is great and i do appreciate it since i know nothing about computers. i just know about music and it's a shame that tech hinders me 99% of the time
Old 16th June 2009
  #8
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tuRnitUpsuM's Avatar
 

Scott

i think u missed the humour in my post

SSD - Ramsan 620 (which works only on fibre) were to subtly hint that theres always something faster.


i did mention larger caches are benefical....i just swapped what i had written and what i was thinking. Its been happening often lately :( .

10k drives for Raid 0
1 HDD 7200rpm 32 mb cache or for Raid.

3 HDDs for sampling is benefical of course but sometimes just not fesible. (mobile etc)

a dedicated HD for OS and one for audio (including samples) is more than sufficient for most applications. (lets be honest - who daily uses their entire sample lib... most have favs and stick to those) .
Old 16th June 2009
  #9
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tuRnitUpsuM's Avatar
 

**A quick word**

Keep your audio drives up to date.... "legacy" samples not used often or recorded data months -years old.... should be stored elsewhere (eg. multiply dvds) and taken OFF the drive. Its just called good book keeping.

also helps keep your system fast on a workflow standpoint and technical.
Old 17th June 2009
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcschild View Post
drive sizes?
once you get past 40-50% full your drives speed dimishes rapidly and exponentially.
Sorry for sort of derailing this thread, but is that really a rule of thumb? And if so, how much of a performance loss is it we're talking about here? Is it the same under Windows and OSX, too?

Thanks
Sascha
Old 17th June 2009
  #11
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Yeah, it's a physical drive thing not related to software or computer etc
Old 17th June 2009
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warmer View Post
Yeah, it's a physical drive thing not related to software or computer etc
Ok, but how much of a performance loss are we talking about here?
I mean, my internal Macbook drive is getting quite filled up, but I haven't exactly noticed too much of a performance degration. Sure, I know there should be plenty of space for caching, due to OSX being UNIX based or so, so I'm keeping quite some GBs free all the time, but as said, I didn't notice much of a degration in performance - and the drive is around 70% full.

- Sascha
Old 17th June 2009
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuRnitUpsuM View Post
Scott

i think u missed the humour in my post

SSD - Ramsan 620 (which works only on fibre) were to subtly hint that theres always something faster.


i did mention larger caches are benefical....i just swapped what i had written and what i was thinking. Its been happening often lately :( .

10k drives for Raid 0
1 HDD 7200rpm 32 mb cache or for Raid.

3 HDDs for sampling is benefical of course but sometimes just not fesible. (mobile etc)

a dedicated HD for OS and one for audio (including samples) is more than sufficient for most applications. (lets be honest - who daily uses their entire sample lib... most have favs and stick to those) .
hey Jay,

i caught it and reinforced it with the SAS raid... heh
yeah my brain is on overload lately too...

as to the samples i do have a few composer/post to film guys who really stress out the libararies but yeah few and far between...

SCott
Old 17th June 2009
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Ok, but how much of a performance loss are we talking about here?
I mean, my internal Macbook drive is getting quite filled up, but I haven't exactly noticed too much of a performance degration. Sure, I know there should be plenty of space for caching, due to OSX being UNIX based or so, so I'm keeping quite some GBs free all the time, but as said, I didn't notice much of a degration in performance - and the drive is around 70% full.

- Sascha
its exponential... if i get time i will find some benchies probably like anandtech or like that.

we have tested it here with huge video files its gets pretty nasty past the 65-70% part. i had it saved somewhere... got all these video benchmarks i have never put up on the video site.... like i have the audio.

the is not to be taken as fact as i am pulling this out of my butt... something i never do. (well other than my head on a daily basis heh)

first 50% of drive 100meg/s
50-70 75meg
70-80 50 meg
80-90 30meg

its something like that for sample drive it could be a bugger. for recording/playback @ 48k not so bad until almost full.

Scott
Old 29th June 2009
  #15
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FULL-DUPLEX's Avatar
 

Wink

My dream combination would be:

  • System/OS Drive: Intel X25-E Extreme Solid State Drive - 32 GB
  • Audio Drive: WD VelociRaptor WD3000HLFS - 300 GB
  • Samples Drive:Samsung Spinpoint F1 HD103UJ - 1000 GB
Old 29th June 2009
  #16
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crypticglobe's Avatar
Hmmm.... well, one thing that high RPM drive's... or even multiple drives at 7200rpm offer is MUCH faster transport seek times in most DAW's. Especially when you have lot's of tracks.

For instance:
  • Single 1TB 7200rpm Hard Drive.
    Locate from bar 10 to bar 120 with 65 tracks and lot's of plug-ins. Slow... and sluggish.... can often cause momentary drive overloads.

  • Two 1TB 7200rpm Hard Drives's
    Locate from bar 10 to bar 120 with 65 tracks and lot's of plug-ins. Much snappier. Very rare drive overloads.

  • Single 300GB Velociraptor (with drive less than half full... Scott is very right about this)
    Locate from bar 10 to bar 120 with 65 tracks and lot's of plug-ins. Snappier... but not as snappy as the 1TB Raid drives. Rare drive overloads.

  • 2x 300GB Velociraptor in raid 0
    Locate from bar 10 to bar 120 with 65 tracks and lot's of plug-ins. Super snappy and CRAZY fast. Never any overloads.

  • 4x 300GB Velociraptor in raid 0
    Locate from bar 10 to bar 120 with 65 tracks and lot's of plug-ins. Locates are instantaneous. No overloads.

  • One Intel SSD Drive 160GB
    Locate from bar 10 to bar 120 with 65 tracks and lot's of plug-ins. Super snappy... very much like the 2 velociraptors in raid. No overloads.

  • 4x Intel SSD Drives 160GB
    Locate from bar 10 to bar 120 with 65 tracks and lot's of plug-ins. Locates are instantaneous and feel faster than anything else. No overloads.


The drive speed also affects how many tracks you can record... but more so how many you can playback. If you have extreme track counts (over 75) a raid 0 is well worth it.

I agreed with Scott about SSD until the Intel came out. It changed everything. It is FAR superior to any other SSD previously offered, and changes performance dramatically in just about any application.

jmtc of course...
Old 30th June 2009
  #17
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R3altruth's Avatar
 

I use a 300gb 10k RPM V-Raptor for my OS and DAW Software... a 1tb Western Digital Caviar Black for VST plugin libraries and samples... and another 1tb Western Digital Caviar Black for my actual session recordings
I have to reiterate something I heard Scott say a few months ago.... How many of us with internal hard drives are bottlenecking at the hard drive???? You don't need 15k RPM... but 32mb cache is extremely helpful on my Caviars...
I've really only seen the HD speed affect playback when using an external USB 2.0 HD... well actually it was an HD that has USB, FW and eSATA... but the laptop my boy had only had USB... It was at that point that I grew to really really appreciate the FW and eSATA that I had been taking for granted....
As far as Raid drives go....
I think you have to ask if a RAID configuration is for you....
In RAID 0 if one disk fails you're screwed....
In RAID 1.. you're size is limited to the size of the smallest drive... and the other drives just mirror it... It's safer but is it really worth it???

Discuss.....
Old 30th June 2009
  #18
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crypticglobe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by R3altruth View Post
I use a 300gb 10k RPM V-Raptor for my OS and DAW Software... a 1tb Western Digital Caviar Black for VST plugin libraries and samples... and another 1tb Western Digital Caviar Black for my actual session recordings
I have to reiterate something I heard Scott say a few months ago.... How many of us with internal hard drives are bottlenecking at the hard drive???? You don't need 15k RPM... but 32mb cache is extremely helpful on my Caviars...
I've really only seen the HD speed affect playback when using an external USB 2.0 HD... well actually it was an HD that has USB, FW and eSATA... but the laptop my boy had only had USB... It was at that point that I grew to really really appreciate the FW and eSATA that I had been taking for granted....
As far as Raid drives go....
I think you have to ask if a RAID configuration is for you....
In RAID 0 if one disk fails you're screwed....
In RAID 1.. you're size is limited to the size of the smallest drive... and the other drives just mirror it... It's safer but is it really worth it???

Discuss.....
lol...

Ok...load up 75 tracks, and get your CPU up to 40% with plugins. Then create some markers. Jump around... by using the key commands. Does it start playing as soon as you hit play after re-locating? Do the tracks all come in together? Does the hard drive light come on briefly, and the transport stutter?

Ok... and then many of us are having to mix 100+ track projects...try the same exercise with THAT many.

As to the ole' raid 0 argument about the one drive failing.... lol. It's so funny... because with NO raid (single drive).... if the drive fails... you are hosed just as badly!! That said, though I am pretty good at making nightly backups, I have never lost data due to a disk failure... and I have been running raid 0 for about 10 years now. Drive's rarely fail, if you have even the most basic backup practices... it's near impossible to ever get "screwed" because you are using raid 0.
Old 30th June 2009
  #19
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R3altruth's Avatar
 

yea that is true.... if one drive fails... you're screwed....

But the chances of having one drive and it fail are less than having 4 drives and one fails....

You're tempting fate....
Old 30th June 2009
  #20
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crypticglobe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by R3altruth View Post
yea that is true.... if one drive fails... you're screwed....

But the chances of having one drive and it fail are less than having 4 drives and one fails....

You're tempting fate....
4 drives is overkill for most audio situations. 2 Will do it.
Old 30th June 2009
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticglobe View Post
Hmmm.... well, one thing that high RPM drive's... or even multiple drives at 7200rpm offer is MUCH faster transport seek times in most DAW's. Especially when you have lot's of tracks.

For instance:
  • Single 1TB 7200rpm Hard Drive.
    Locate from bar 10 to bar 120 with 65 tracks and lot's of plug-ins. Slow... and sluggish.... can often cause momentary drive overloads.

  • Two 1TB 7200rpm Hard Drives's
    Locate from bar 10 to bar 120 with 65 tracks and lot's of plug-ins. Much snappier. Very rare drive overloads.

  • Single 300GB Velociraptor (with drive less than half full... Scott is very right about this)
    Locate from bar 10 to bar 120 with 65 tracks and lot's of plug-ins. Snappier... but not as snappy as the 1TB Raid drives. Rare drive overloads.

  • 2x 300GB Velociraptor in raid 0
    Locate from bar 10 to bar 120 with 65 tracks and lot's of plug-ins. Super snappy and CRAZY fast. Never any overloads.

  • 4x 300GB Velociraptor in raid 0
    Locate from bar 10 to bar 120 with 65 tracks and lot's of plug-ins. Locates are instantaneous. No overloads.

  • One Intel SSD Drive 160GB
    Locate from bar 10 to bar 120 with 65 tracks and lot's of plug-ins. Super snappy... very much like the 2 velociraptors in raid. No overloads.

  • 4x Intel SSD Drives 160GB
    Locate from bar 10 to bar 120 with 65 tracks and lot's of plug-ins. Locates are instantaneous and feel faster than anything else. No overloads.


The drive speed also affects how many tracks you can record... but more so how many you can playback. If you have extreme track counts (over 75) a raid 0 is well worth it.

I agreed with Scott about SSD until the Intel came out. It changed everything. It is FAR superior to any other SSD previously offered, and changes performance dramatically in just about any application.

jmtc of course...

superb posting!


i do have a question however

Quote:
Single 1TB 7200rpm Hard Drive.
Locate from bar 10 to bar 120 with 65 tracks and lot's of plug-ins. Slow... and sluggish.... can often cause momentary drive overloads.
this was definately the case yrs ago and why we sold raptors or raid 0 arrays
and i know you remember the zoom issue as well!

however in our tests of late we no longer see this @ 48k only @ 96k (where i start recommending raid 0)

so are you saying you are seeing this @ 48k whilst scubbing?

also something no one has mentioned and boy i will probably get some flack for this.... i would give myself some a fw months ago...

VISTA+ (new subsystem) absolutely rocks for file transfer rates

we can actually record 128 tracks to 1 drive 48k

Scott
ADK
Old 1st July 2009
  #22
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crypticglobe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcschild View Post
superb posting!


i do have a question however



this was definately the case yrs ago and why we sold raptors or raid 0 arrays
and i know you remember the zoom issue as well!

however in our tests of late we no longer see this @ 48k only @ 96k (where i start recommending raid 0)

so are you saying you are seeing this @ 48k whilst scubbing?

also something no one has mentioned and boy i will probably get some flack for this.... i would give myself some a fw months ago...

VISTA+ (new subsystem) absolutely rocks for file transfer rates

we can actually record 128 tracks to 1 drive 48k

Scott
ADK
Thanks Scott,

Yes... Vista with SATA II for all drives is super fast, and it is possible to record 128 tracks on one drive. However, I was doing that on XP with 7200 16mb buffer drives two years ago. I do actually see an improvement there in Windows 7 over Vista as well. Network transfers on 7 are BLAZING!!

What I am seeing on most systems is that there is some kind of bottle neck with hard drive/cpu interaction when the CPU starts to get a load on it. For instance... 128 tracks in record on a single 7200rpm SATA II drive... with no plug-in's... everything is super snappy... no issues. On playback... locating becomes somewhat sluggish as soon as you add some plug-ins. If you add a bunch of crossfades... LOOKOUT!! You start stuttering and spitting all over the place.

Move the project over to your raid 0 with velciraptors, or SSD's... and problems go away! I think that both Vista and XP are giving priority to certain CPU processes over software hard drive buffering... or in the case of crossfades/multiple edits... the drive is just having to search out too many files faster than it is able to.

Anyway... for me and the way I work... and for most of my clients... drive speed is still very relevant.

jmtc..
Old 1st July 2009
  #23
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docbop's Avatar
 

One thing I don't think mentioned is higher RPM drive like the 10K and 15K generate a lot more heat. So factor in needing more cooling.
Old 5th July 2009
  #24
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tuRnitUpsuM's Avatar
 

@ Scott and Steve

great posts


For those looking for Raid 0 performance and get redundency like a Raid 1, might want to look into Raid 5.

Pros of Raid 5 -

* stated above (raid 0 + raid 1 benefits).
* as you increase the amount of drives into the system... you only lose the 1 drive capacity that takes care of the parity blocks. so for eg. if you used 3 drives... each 1 TB, you'll get raid performance (slightly slower) from 2 drives and the other, you net raid 1 redundency (just about). So you'll have a Raid 0 2 TB system with redundency! as opposed to 1 TB ( 2 x's 1 TB drives) raid 1.
*Should a disk fail within the Raid system ... When the bad disk is replaced by a new one, the array is rebuilt (especially in Hotswap Raid systems) while the system continues to operate (ie playing back tracks).


Cons of Raid 5 -

* not all Raid cards and certainly Raid software (fake Raid) can properly handle Raid 5
* Raid cards that do run a Raid 5 are fairly costly because most cheapy cards omit Raid 5 due to it taking up more processing than Raid 0 or 1.
* Raid 5 is heavier on processing than 1 or 0.



**Scott or Steve**

have anyone of you guys tried a Raid 5 system specially for a DAW ?? (i have built a raid 5 system but was specifically for data..... i didnt get the chance to test it in a DAW context). Id be eager to know if there are any serious drawbacks and or gains from using Raid 5 in a DAW environment. I know would be slightly slower (possibly unuseably) than a traditional Raid but the benefits of having more capacity than Raid 1 could outweigh the drawbacks?

cheers
Old 5th July 2009
  #25
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docbop's Avatar
 

Have not used RAID 5 for a DAW and not sure I would. Basically RAID 5 strength is for reading data. The striping across multiple drives increases access time. That is a penalty for writing. When writing to RAID 5 that parity info for the striping has to be calculated and the stripes written. So RAID 5 is usually used more for read intensive data.

Also what concerns me about RAID 5 for non-IT use is it has a limited window on how long it will protect you if a drive dies. If a drive dies and you keep trying to write to the RAID set it will eventually corrupt the parity data and you lose everything. So with RAID 5 or other RAID's that use striping and parity its good to spend the money and get a RAID setup with a hot spare drive. So if a drive dies the hot spare kicks in the drive system slows for awhile while data is rebuilt on the spare then back to full speed again. Then you replace the dead drive and it becomes the new hot spare.

The work I do we use RAID 1 mirrors. A drive dies only hit during a session is no more safety net. After replacing the drive rebuilding can take awhile depend on how full the other drive is.

So there are trade off in all the RAID's. If I had a tower of drives I might create a RAID 1 for my OS and apps, another RAID 1 for writing sessions to, and a RAID 5 for my libraries and others data I want fast reads on. A good controller can handle that easily.
Old 6th July 2009
  #26
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really depends on the Raid 5 set up with the right controller i can get over 300MB thruput on raid 5

for most people is not a requirement and its costly.
a good ext Sonnet array is over $4K

where as a NAS type server with raid 5 is rather common used as a back up to place.

Scott
ADK
Old 6th July 2009
  #27
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crypticglobe's Avatar
I find that RAID5 is not a good solution for a DAW. It does provide outstanding read speads, so location can be very fast... however, the write speeds are horrible! I am talking no more than 35 tracks or so in record... and less as it fills up. It also get's funky when reading a lot of tracks and trying write more.

A great Raid for Storage and backup... but I don't like it all for DAW.
Old 6th July 2009
  #28
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tarnationsauce's Avatar
 

I'll chime in and say the one Intel X25M in my system made a HUGE difference in my productivity. Sessions load in ~.5sec where it used to be ~10-20 sec.
Plugins load super quick too. Just everything in general is amazingly fast. Bootup, Antivirus, etc..

Here is what I do:

1x Intel X25M SSD - OS/Programs & current sessions I am working on.
2x WD Greenpower 1.5TB in RAID1 for holding all extra data like sample library, and sessions I am not actively working on.

I read the other day Intel is coming out w/ a 320GB SSD early next year. SSD drives are the future. Even in the present they are futuristic.

By far the SSD was the biggest upgrade I have ever made to a single computer. Even going from processor generations or adding gigs of RAM made not as big of a difference as the X25M did. BTW I only trust Intel made SSD drives at the moment. Competition in the SSD marked should be getting better soon.
Old 11th July 2009
  #29
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tuRnitUpsuM's Avatar
 

6 days later .. (construction job(cottage work )... had me away from computer).

thanks for all the feedback on Raid 5 fellas ( in DAW use context) ...

hmmm ,

i did notice the read strengths , but i wonder if the number of tracks recorded at one time is the defining factor then to employ a Raid 5 ( full blown studio recording the entire band/orchestration the exception). If one were to say track 8 inputs max simutaneously but feed alot of tracks to converters than out to a console. Maybe in that situation could a RAid 5 setup be not only fesible but beneficial? the read speeds and disk capacity and somewhat security blanket could go along way. Especially in todays "hybrid" setups (where not a whole lot is tracked at once yet tons of data are pushed through the system (reads) for outputs to be mixed down.

anyhow, some great info to be had on this thread ..cheers to OP !
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