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Auto tune without knowing key of song?
Old 8th August 2005
  #31
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Get yourself some reference to a pitch in your studio.

Record yourself tapping your fingers on your cofee cup and let auto tune tell you which note it is. Gives you a reference.

even ground hum somewhere in your studio should give a reference. A bit sharp G in europe and a bit sharp B in the US.

enough knowledge of Relative pitch and basic scales to get you from there to knowing which key the song is in should be absolutely mandatory if you're ever going to ask someone to actually pay you to work with their music. It should take you less than 2 seconds.
Old 8th August 2005
  #32
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Johnny B's Avatar
 

Has anyone ever written a song and not known the key it was in? Now think about this for a minute before you answer.

Now take into account that some well-known 20th century classical composers made it a high art form to destroy all past forms of harmony. Now if you have succeeded in destroying harmony, then it really could be difficult to figure out the key of a piece and then try to use Autotune on it to fix it. Since I do not like many of these late 20th century modern classical composers (I regard much of it as noise) it might be a fun project to ram some of those sorts of pieces thru Autoune...I have no doubt that more noise would come out the other side...but it would be "new" noise...suitable for "effects" and added "anomalies" in modern digital recordings.
Old 8th August 2005
  #33
Yah... I say run some Harry Partch through every autotune-type device and plug in the known universe. That ought to break 'em all like a nasty virus -- and then we could go back to making music with real musicians and singers instead of a bunch of siliconed up catalog models...

[Okay... I'm kinda kidding there. Kinda. ]

___________________


On the haven't you written a song and you didn't know what key it was front, of course. Hell, like a lot of pop music from the last 100 years, my songs tend to modulate from time to time and I'll often get to a chorus and be thrown for a second (when, say, soloing over it) because there's a modulation I didn't see coming, despite the fact that the chords 'look' like they're in the original key/mode.

But I can figure out what key it is pretty fast. I know the basic mechanism of figuring out what key it's in. I know where to start and how to proceed. And I've known that since I was a ten-thumbed, two-chord wonder...


But, you know, it's a whole new world.

People can make quite convincing finished recordings without having much of any clue how music works.

When they're lucky.

Beginners luck is a great thing. But if you don't build on it, you're just a dilettante -- and you always will be.
Old 8th August 2005
  #34
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1
Beginners luck is a great thing. But if you don't build on it, you're just a dilettante -- and you always will be.
Yeah, musically illiterate 'dilettantes' like Charlie Parker, Wes Montgomery or Lennon/Mc Cartney couldn't really 'build on it'.

There are more important things in music than knowing what key it's in.....

Blues/Rock/Modal/Funk/etc probably are better described as having tonal centers. Easy to spot the root there while more modern jazz stuff will have constant modulations, so that it's more a question of having a 'momentary tonal centre' or something....

George Martin has a great piece in his book 'All you need is ears' where he describes Lennon/Mc Cartney's works as 'tunes' as opposed to the compositions of 'literate' musicians like say in the classical field. The ability to come up with a great pop tune (spell, a H-I-T) is a gift, it has nothing to do with music theory/knowledge.

If lack of music theory chops prevents the original posters from using AutoBore then it's actually a good thing.

Anybody who prides himself on 'musical knowledge' should friggin' be able to sing in tune or demand it!

Andi

www.doorknocker.ch
Old 8th August 2005
  #35
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Unfortunately for all of you theory snobs, music isn't about scholarly aptitude or knowing what tone equals what little letter. People like you try to write music by mathematical formulas and try to shove what 'sounds right" into your skulls by brute memorization. Your music is probably made up of loops and samples that you didn't even write or record yourself. Too bad you have no clue how to use the other half of your brain.

Of course learning how to "speak music" is helpful for communication, but of course, at worst, you could always hum the tune.

Knowledge of music theory has NOTHING to do with a person's MUSICALITY.
Old 8th August 2005
  #36
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Quote:
Knowledge of music theory has NOTHING to do with a person's MUSICALITY.
True.

It sure as f*uck helps you talk to other musicians, though.

Handy.

- bunner
Over Here
On The Island
Loop Free Since There's Been Loops
Old 8th August 2005
  #37
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker
Yeah, musically illiterate 'dilettantes' like Charlie Parker, Wes Montgomery or Lennon/Mc Cartney couldn't really 'build on it'.

There are more important things in music than knowing what key it's in.....
...

Andi

www.doorknocker.ch
I think we agree on many things here (judging from this and other posts) but if you think Charlie Parker, Wes, and L&M didn't know what was going on intimately with the harmonic structure of the music they played -- you need to do some serious listening to those artists.

Parker was one of the most formidably harmonically complex soloists jazz has ever known. Wes was all about working the 'inside chords' in a song. And L&M didn't just stumble on those extremely sophisticated inversions of harmonic expectation -- by most accounts some of the most sophisticated pop music since the heyday of 30's pop.


Look, maybe you have a misunderstanding of what I'm getting at -- and certainly of where I'm coming from.

I'm not a snob. (Okay, I may be a snob in some ways. But I loved Blue Cheer and Iggy and the Pistols... so I'm not that kind of snob.)

I started out as a folkie and punk rocker. Some of my friends called me 'the two chord wonder.' heh

I've never had a lesson. I didn't even start playing until I was 20 -- because I was as much as certified as having "absolutely no musical talent whatsoever" by, first, the neighborhood piano teacher, and later by the elementary school music teacher.

To this day, I can barely parse out standard notation. It probably takes me 10 or 15 minutes to figure out a bar or two of simple classicalguitar notation. Even guitar tab looks like greek to me.


But when it comes to basic harmonic theory, I'm in pretty good shape. I understand how chords, keys, modes, and modulation work pretty well -- because, on some level, that's very important to being able to improvise/work out melodic runs (and since I can't remember anything, I'm pretty much forced to improvise heh ), not to mention a great help to actually writing interesting music in the first place.

Now, don't get me wrong -- there is definitely a lot of intuition in how I work. I'm a lot more likely to figure out why something works after I've hacked it out.

But I know how to communicate with other musicians in terms of harmony and rhythm, which is often crucial to being able to play anything approaching sophisticated music -- or record it.
Old 8th August 2005
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by faeflora
Unfortunately for all of you theory snobs, music isn't about scholarly aptitude or knowing what tone equals what little letter. People like you try to write music by mathematical formulas and try to shove what 'sounds right" into your skulls by brute memorization. Your music is probably made up of loops and samples that you didn't even write or record yourself. Too bad you have no clue how to use the other half of your brain.
...
I don't know if you're talkin' to me, pardner, but you're welcome to mosey over to http://www.soundclick.com/onebluenine and see if that describes my music. And then maybe we can talk more.
Old 8th August 2005
  #39
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Oh, I was not saying one needs a "Degree in Music" to do great work. I was only pointing out that certain classical composers in the late 20th Century did some rather noise-filled pieces with really *NO* "Harmony Center" because in their quest to be super hip they were out to destroy harmony as we've come to understand it. I'll bet they would be very pleased with the further destruction that some plug like Autotune could do to the music. Why, I'd bet they'd even enjoy those additional digital anomalies, artifacts, and chipmonk sounds.

As I alluded to above, that kind of "harmony-less" piece does not appeal to me as I consider it noise and far "too dissonant"...but each of them had the required classical chops and were all well versed in all forms of music.

Now take a guy like the violinist Mr. Pearlman...sits in his wheelchair and does it all well...classical, jazz, blues, country, bluegrass, folk, pop, or whatever...and you can see that no matter what style of music he is playing...he's having fun simply because he is not a snob...just one of those gifted musicians who has mastered his instrument.

AutoTune...well...that's for people who have not mastered their voices or their instruments...and once AutoTune is abused...well it sounds fake, funny, or lame.

Might be best to avoid Autotune entirely and just re-track a part if there are too many clinkers...just a thought.
Old 9th August 2005
  #40
Ever heard any Harry Partch, Johnny?

His music was often all about harmony... as it played out on instruments of his own invention that tried to present a just intonation.

Of course, he didn't have the kind of access to music computers we do today. But some of his music has been transcribed (translated?) for microtunable synthesizers. (And, of course, there are a number of classic recordings of his works and performances.)

Partch's music is well worth hearing -- and thinking about.


Of course, a lot of folks don't get his music. Big time.
Old 9th August 2005
  #41
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Johnny B's Avatar
 

Why don't you post a link to some samples of his work and I can have a listen.
Old 9th August 2005
  #42
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NetworkAudio's Avatar
Here is some advice.
To truly tune well you need to know the root of the chord that is being heard under the note you want to tune. If you cant figure out the root then go with the most dominant note. Tune fifths high, thirds low roots right on "the piano". If you cant figure that out then tune everything right on the tuner and it will atleast not jar with the accompaniment.

It will help you a lot to learn some basic theory. Intervals and their tuning. Basic chord functions i.e. Tonic, Dominant, Subdominant. Major versus minor. Start there - its actually fun. Ask any jazzplayers you know - they live and breathe this.
If its any comfort - playing and tuning a wagner opera of 4 or more hours you will never know everything you "should know" in terms of tuning perfectly. 100 players all tuning those progressions simultaneously.....
We go with the bass and or the dominant sounds and when **** hits the fan you revert to hitting it where the tuner goes.

Hope this helps
Kjetil
Old 9th August 2005
  #43
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James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Warning - this post contains practical advice as opposed to condescension...

Even if you do know the key of a song it won't necessarily help you autotune a vocal - you could set the whole song to correct to the key of F Major but the program will then squash out all sorts of grace notes, blues notes and slides that your singer may have included deliberately as part of the performance; furthermore different sections of the song may be in different keys so 'set-and-forget' isn't really the ticket here anyway; you're going to have to roll your sleeves up...

Given that the whole exercise is extremely material dependent anyway - what 'works' for a Jazz singer will not be what you want for a slice of teeny disco-pop - sit down and work out on the keyboard what notes are needed in the melody and then block out the rest, fiddle with attack and tuning settings then rinse and repeat for the chorus, bridge etc and then save each setting as a patch; now EITHER program in patch changes that flip the Autotune settings as the track plays or do what I do which is to move the chorus audio to a different track and open a new instance of Autotune with its own setting - it's quite possible you'll want to process the verse and chorus vocal differently anyway so you're not adding an extra step.

No-one would deny that working out the chords to a song and familiarising yourself with the changes are a great help, but you could perfectly well perform the process outlined above without knowing any music theory at all, provided you have a good pair of tuned ears.

Hope that helps...
Old 9th August 2005
  #44
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toolskid's Avatar
 

on a purely auto-tune related note (heh) cajonezzz gave some solid gold advice
Old 9th August 2005
  #45
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scruffydog's Avatar
Nice tips..yeah..
Use the piano or something stable..learn the chords!!
run the melody through your head/hum/sing the desired pitches and play the audio..close your eyes..compare and make a judgement.
Some words are best fixed by simply nudgeing them up or down ...in logic, if I can hear something is out..for me it will mean at least 25 cents +/- in general.
Groups of bv's were never meant to be perfect..over tuneing them will kill them so always make sure you only fix things within reason..But all in all vocal editing is a joy and the shapes and phrases are better for a bit of help after the recording session.
I think extreme intervention can be creative too..and agree with something I remember reading in one of the mag's that it is really an area for inovation..
but perhaps like all things to do with inovation..many are called but few are chosen.
I like logic for recording and pitch shifting..autotune for time efficient in session vocal comping.. and melodyne for exploreing the ideas in a lot more detail..some times it works well whilst other times it is a bit of a blind alley.
Old 9th August 2005
  #46
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker
Yeah, musically illiterate 'dilettantes' like Charlie Parker, Wes Montgomery or Lennon/Mc Cartney couldn't really 'build on it'.

There are more important things in music than knowing what key it's in.....

Blues/Rock/Modal/Funk/etc probably are better described as having tonal centers. Easy to spot the root there while more modern jazz stuff will have constant modulations, so that it's more a question of having a 'momentary tonal centre' or something....

George Martin has a great piece in his book 'All you need is ears' where he describes Lennon/Mc Cartney's works as 'tunes' as opposed to the compositions of 'literate' musicians like say in the classical field. The ability to come up with a great pop tune (spell, a H-I-T) is a gift, it has nothing to do with music theory/knowledge.

If lack of music theory chops prevents the original posters from using AutoBore then it's actually a good thing.

Anybody who prides himself on 'musical knowledge' should friggin' be able to sing in tune or demand it!

Andi

www.doorknocker.ch
Sorry but Charlie Parker, Wes Montgomery and Lennon and McCartney absolutely
knew music. Charlie and Wes knew alot since they were reharmonizing standards
The Beatles werent readers but they knew what chords they were playing and what key they were in. If its just you and a singer working on the track, who's producing? They should know what the key is and whether something is in or out of tune. If you cant get the guy who did the track then get someone who does know music to help you. And when you get a chance you should learn music, at least some rudumentary piano and so should that singer. Even if you know the key of the song auto tune in auto mode is NOT a garantee that your track will be in tune.
This thread to me just shows whats wrong with this business these days.
. In the old days there would be the artist the engineer and the producer, and at least one of them would know music. Nowadays with small individual setups
and the engineer handling everything, its even more critical. Don't make excuses
learn dammitt!
Old 9th August 2005
  #47
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scruffydog's Avatar
Perhaps parker and miles and all our absent friends would mostly just say#
..'if it feels right..do it..'
even miles turned away from music for a while cos he 'stopped hearing'..
truth is if you want to paint..go paint..
if you want to write..go write
and if you want to record a song you wrote..go record.
Old 9th August 2005
  #48
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musiclab
Sorry but Charlie Parker, Wes Montgomery and Lennon and McCartney absolutely
knew music. Charlie and Wes knew alot since they were reharmonizing standards
The Beatles werent readers but they knew what chords they were playing and what key they were in. If its just you and a singer working on the track, who's producing? They should know what the key is and whether something is in or out of tune. If you cant get the guy who did the track then get someone who does know music to help you. And when you get a chance you should learn music, at least some rudumentary piano and so should that singer. Even if you know the key of the song auto tune in auto mode is NOT a garantee that your track will be in tune.
This thread to me just shows whats wrong with this business these days.
. In the old days there would be the artist the engineer and the producer, and at least one of them would know music. Nowadays with small individual setups
and the engineer handling everything, its even more critical. Don't make excuses
learn dammitt!
muisclab,

FYI, I can read and write music and have studied classical guitar for quite a few years.

If you would have really read my post instead of mindlessly ranting you would have found that I never said Wes or Bird didn't know music. Far from it!

It's just that their approach and knowledge was totally relying on their ears. I'm NOT saying that knowing music theory will hurt you but there are too many players (especially from the MIT/Berklee crowd that rely on theory as a crutch and wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell to come up with a memorable pop tune or to hold their own in a Chicago or Austin blues jam, to pick two wildly random examples.

I only tried to imply and will say it again that it's wrong to condemn the original poster for not knowing the key to the song. He might have perfect pitch and be able to hum it after one listen though.

He also MIGHT be unmusical but that's just guesswork and while I fully believe that theory is helpful it ain't for everybody.

Most mortals will profit from it but it's interesting that a lot of true innovators (and I might add Jimi Hendrix and Frank Sinatra to the likes of Bird and Wes) couldn't read. I guess it has something to do with having a clean slate.

Knowledge is important anywhere, it just gets on my nerves when you subscribe to a stupid belief system that places written music/theory above other forms of communication.

Witness Indian music where a few thousand years of knowledge is solely submitted by ear/singing.

Andi

www.doorknocker.ch
Old 9th August 2005
  #49
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scruffydog's Avatar
What is wrong with the industry has nothing to do with general music education...autotune or charlie parker!
Old 9th August 2005
  #50
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scruffydog's Avatar
I had a bad day too..but the kid only asked..no harm in that is there teach?
Old 9th August 2005
  #51
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scruffydog's Avatar
Lenny bernstein said (the summer of 1970 Tanglewood):

''...It's the artists of the world, the feelers and the thinkers, who will ultimately save us, who can articulate, educate, defy, insisit, sing and shout the big dreams.Only the artist can turn the ''not-yet'' into reality.All right, how do you do it?
Like this: find out what you can do well, uniquely well-that's what studying is for, to find out what you can do particularly well.You.Unique.And then do it for all your worth.And I don't mean ''do your own thing'' in the hip sense.That's passivity,that's dropping out, that's not doing anything. I'm talking about 'doing', which means (another old-fashioned phrase) serving your community, whether that community is a tiny town or six continents.And there's no time to loose, which makes your position twice as difficult, because your caught in a paradox.You see, You've got to work fast, but not be in a hurry.You've got to be patient, but not passive.You've got to reckognise the hope that exists in you, but not let impatience turn it into dispair.
Does that sound like double-talk? Well, It is, because the paradox exists.And out of this paradox you have to produce the brilliant synthesis.We'll help you as much as we can-that's why were here-but it is you who must produce it, with your new atomic minds, your flaming angry hope. and your secret weapon of art.''
Old 9th August 2005
  #52
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max cooper's Avatar
 

How 'bout posting a part of the song. We'll tell you what key it's in in about a minute.

Old 9th August 2005
  #53
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I dunno, Autotune may be in large part to blame for so many "good looking" people with little or *no* musical talent taking scarce industry resources and diverting them to productions that are not really very good.

And it's really not about being a snob, it's not about the ability to read and write music on a printed staff (you can buy computer programs for that task)...and it's not about being formally educated in music...it's all about innate raw talent which leads to the audience getting an emotional experience from listening to the record.

If you can do it, I think it's always best to just re-track. The only way someone should even consider using AutoTune is if there is absolutely no possibility (none!) to get the talent back in to re-track.

And if you really want it to sound great, it's best to do it in analogue.

I suppose it might be possible to remove the odd clinker in a talented person's recorded performance (ie...like use the tech on a single note) but the rabid abuse of AutoTune by people with *No* innate musical talent is why many people object to AutoTune...That, and the fact that things processed by AutoTune can sound extremely strange, odd, weird, and downright funny.
Old 9th August 2005
  #54
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker
muisclab,

FYI, I can read and write music and have studied classical guitar for quite a few years.

If you would have really read my post instead of mindlessly ranting you would have found that I never said Wes or Bird didn't know music. Far from it!

It's just that their approach and knowledge was totally relying on their ears. I'm NOT saying that knowing music theory will hurt you but there are too many players (especially from the MIT/Berklee crowd that rely on theory as a crutch and wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell to come up with a memorable pop tune or to hold their own in a Chicago or Austin blues jam, to pick two wildly random examples.

I only tried to imply and will say it again that it's wrong to condemn the original poster for not knowing the key to the song. He might have perfect pitch and be able to hum it after one listen though.

He also MIGHT be unmusical but that's just guesswork and while I fully believe that theory is helpful it ain't for everybody.

Most mortals will profit from it but it's interesting that a lot of true innovators (and I might add Jimi Hendrix and Frank Sinatra to the likes of Bird and Wes) couldn't read. I guess it has something to do with having a clean slate.

Knowledge is important anywhere, it just gets on my nerves when you subscribe to a stupid belief system that places written music/theory above other forms of communication.

Witness Indian music where a few thousand years of knowledge is solely submitted by ear/singing.

Andi

www.doorknocker.ch
I think you're wrong, I think Bird and Wes could read, if not they certainly knew harmony. Wes played in big bands, he had to read charts. They reharmonised songs. Using them as any example for someone who can't tell what key a song is in is goofy. I'm not equating whether or not you can read to knowing music, you might have noticed, reading is NOT what its about, I suggested learning rudimentry piano, not advanced harmony so give me a break. I'll forget you said anything about stupid.

The main point is times have changed, we need to know music since often we are called upon to program, to tune, to time shift. If you don't want to learn you leave yourself 2 arenas to work in live and rap music.
Old 9th August 2005
  #55
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musiclab
I think you're wrong, I think Bird and Wes could read, if not they certainly knew harmony. Wes played in big bands, he had to read charts. They reharmonised songs. Using them as any example for someone who can't tell what key a song is in is goofy.
For the record, neither Bird nor Wes could read music but they surely had some of the best ears ever.

It's funny to learn that Wes was always very insecure when he was in the company of good readers/'proper' musicians like on his big band dates.
He felt not worthy but always managed to play incredible music no matter how he felt.

And by far the most important element in jazz and much of modern music is RHYTHM. Learning about jazz phrasing can only be achieved with hard practice and exposure to the great music of the past.
That doesn't mean you should ignore reading/theory, surely not but you can learn all the theory in the world but it won't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

For example, I was REALLY surprised to learn in the 'Sessions with Sinatra' book that the man couldn't read music. I thought it would be required for the work he did with all those great arrangers/bands. But there you go, we shouldn't ever make assumptions.

ALL the great musicians have studied and worked incerdibly hard. So whether someone was able to read or not is just not important.


BTW, Wes' 'Smokin' at the half Note' is bumpin' in my kitchen right now. What a great record!

Andi

www.doorknocker.ch
Old 9th August 2005
  #56
Sightreading and comprehension of harmony are not at all the same thing.

There are people who are excellent sightreaders who couldn't tell you how to form a Cbmaj13 to save their lives.



Aw... geez! WHAT am I doing back here?

I'm part of the problem, not the solution... With all due respect and any necessary apologies -- I'm outta here.


[PS... I think everyone has a lot of good points and probably we are not nearly as far apart on these decidedly peripheral issues as we might seem to be. Good topic for a thread. Some other thread. Cheerio.]
Old 9th August 2005
  #57
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James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny B
Autotune may be in large part to blame for so many "good looking" people with little or *no* musical talent taking scarce industry resources and diverting them to productions that are not really very good.
I don't agree.

Neither Autotune or any other piece of recording gear drives the music industry.

What drives the music (and every other) industry is SALES.

No sales = no more money = no more product.

If consumers stopped buying the sh*t that we all know infects popular music the industry would soon stop selling it.

We can then get into a debate about what drives consumer sales - a short list might be: globalisation, multi-national monopolies, targetted advertising, the media, education policy, social trends, parenting and many other factors. Recording gear is simply nowhere on this list.
Old 9th August 2005
  #58
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wallace's Avatar
 

If you set autotune to chromatic scale, it shouldn't matter what key she's singing in, unless it's some Indian classical music with semitones.
Old 9th August 2005
  #59
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Johnny B's Avatar
 

James L.

YOU may not agree with me, but *I* agree with much of what you said.

Blue,

C flat? Don't see that one too often...Possible? Yes. But I think people would most often just use "B" instead. I know you were just kidding people and having fun.

Does AutoTune support C-Flat or does it just support singers who sing flat?

Maybe it just supports "singers" whose very best position is flat-on-their-backs.
Old 9th August 2005
  #60
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lehmann
I don't agree.

Neither Autotune or any other piece of recording gear drives the music industry.

What drives the music (and every other) industry is SALES.
I think the point being made is that autotune helps market "good looking, but talent-impaired" artists by making them at least palatable to the general public.

Which of course is sales driven.

Being a musician myself, and a jazzer, I can only say here that knowledge of music theory, harmony, etc, are tools that I use to foster my creativity. I cannot imagine approaching music without them.

The same holds for all great musician (not that I am in any way comparing myself
All the greats built on what existed prior. Whether or not they learn to read, you better believe they knew they key they were in and the harmonic structure. And they invvariably built on what came before them. Theory was their toolbox. Reading is but one tool in that box.

My $0.02.
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