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DSD editor questions
Old 18th July 2005
  #1
DSD editor questions

We are about to purchase an editor for DSD 64/128fs and DXD.
We record to a Genex GX9048 and will be getting the upgrade to 128fs/DXD
first Q 2006.
Our choice seems like it will be Sequoia as they are coming out with DSD support fairly soon. Pyramix has turned me off since they are hardware-dependant and therefore really pricey.

I would love to hear what peoples opinions are, and any possible rumors on who is about to offer DSD support in their products.

I am also more or less getting the advice to record straight to DXD and convert to DSD after mixing because of noise problems. Any insight on this?

Kjetil Laukholm
Malmö Symphony Orchestra
Old 18th July 2005
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by klaukholm
We are about to purchase an editor for DSD 64/128fs and DXD.
We record to a Genex GX9048 and will be getting the upgrade to 128fs/DXD
first Q 2006.
Our choice seems like it will be Sequoia as they are coming out with DSD support fairly soon. Pyramix has turned me off since they are hardware-dependant and therefore really pricey.

I would love to hear what peoples opinions are, and any possible rumors on who is about to offer DSD support in their products.

I am also more or less getting the advice to record straight to DXD and convert to DSD after mixing because of noise problems. Any insight on this?

Kjetil Laukholm
Malmö Symphony Orchestra

I don't use DSD or DXD myself, but I am a Pyramix user and have read quite a lot about it. The only problem with recording directly to DXD is that it would have to be upsampled 192 or cross-sampled DSD as there are (to my knowledge) no 384khz AD convertors. My understanding of the "noise problem" of DSD is that it is a product of the DSD noise shaping curve, this being the case recording and then changing to DSD will make no difference. In practical terms I've never heard of anyone hearing "noise" as a result of DSD.

I believe that Sequioa is planning on producing a DSD solution, however your problem will be on how to get it into the system. Sonic, Sadie and Pyramix, all have DSD/DXD solutions that involve hardware. Of course there is also Sony's DSD workstation.

DSD take-up (IMHO) seems to have slowed in recent times, possibly due to the lack of consumer interest, the costs and logistics involved in SACD production and from a recording point of view its far more complicated and involved for post production.

I would respectfully suggest that Pyramix and Sadie both produce systems for sub £10,000 that are DSD capable which when compared with the amount of investment required in things like convertors and the Genex (by the time you have the additional cards and hardware required for DSD).

DSD also has other limitations such as processing, editing and alike hence the DXD. Even Sonama converts the crossfades to 384khz in order to perform them. My understanding is that most people are recording 96/192 and then up-sampling to DSD for final production. At present all DAW systems are limited to 24 tracks DSD at most.

I would recommend that you take a look at the Pyramix forum as there are several owners with extensive experience of DSD/DXD and they can possible point out the advantages/problems of working DSD and possibly Michael Bishop (of Telarc fame) who posts here occasionally will see your thread and offer a reply himself.

Good luck! If there is anything further you would like to know about Pyramix itself I would be happy to answer.

Regards



Roland
Old 18th July 2005
  #3
Thank you for your answer!

Genex will have 128fsDSD and DXD converters last Q this year and Digital Audio Denmark already had one out.

The system I am looking at getting is:
Genex 9048 with 16 ch IO onboard converters $13500
Sequoia or similar

The Genex will allow me to remove the hotswap scsi drive and read it directly on the computer. This is where I see the savings compared to pyramix as I dont need two mykerinoscards (total $6000).

If someone has a better solution for me in the same pricerange I'm all ears.

I have seen a lot written about the different ways pyramix and sadie handles crossfades etc by converting all to pcm or just the crossfades in case of sadie.
Does anyone know how the Genex software handles this? It does editing, but not mixing of DSD.

Kjetil Laukholm
Old 18th July 2005
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by klaukholm
Thank you for your answer!

Genex will have 128fsDSD and DXD converters last Q this year and Digital Audio Denmark already had one out.

The system I am looking at getting is:
Genex 9048 with 16 ch IO onboard converters $13500
Sequoia or similar

The Genex will allow me to remove the hotswap scsi drive and read it directly on the computer. This is where I see the savings compared to pyramix as I dont need two mykerinoscards (total $6000).

If someone has a better solution for me in the same pricerange I'm all ears.

I have seen a lot written about the different ways pyramix and sadie handles crossfades etc by converting all to pcm or just the crossfades in case of sadie.
Does anyone know how the Genex software handles this? It does editing, but not mixing of DSD.

Kjetil Laukholm

I assume it must convert, even the Sony does for a few milliseconds before and after the crossfade. My understanding is that in DSD you can't edit it directly because of the math.

Regards


Roland
Old 19th July 2005
  #5
Lives for gear
 

If Sequoia is coming out with a DSD option, it is news to me... I'm generally pretty up to date with the program, but the only public announcement has been support for the Phillips PCM-DSD authoring tools.

The problem is Sequoia being native relies on sound cards that are commercially available. Until DSD sound cards come out, Sequoia won't be able to work with DSD with any sort of ease. Hopefully with the announcement of DSD as a part of the ASIO-3 spec's, that will change, but I wouldn't base a decission to go with Sequoia on DSD support.

If you don't mind me asking, where did you hear about this DSD support for Sequoia?

If you want to work with DSD, you options are Sony Sonoma, SADiE, Pyramix and perhaps Sonic (has their DSD DAW actually shipped?)

--Ben
Old 19th July 2005
  #6
Gear Nut
 

Hello,

for the foreseeable future we will not adress the direct handling of DSD. We adress high resolution PCM production with a final conversion into any desired format.
Why?

As a matter of fact, all known and computer available strategies on digital signal processing like mixing, changing levels, dynamic processing, filtering, delaying, and the resulting FX are to be processed in multibit formats.

In respect to DSD, Digital Signal processing means a requantisation twice on every DSP step in the signal flow. The last step always has to be quite fierce Noiseshaping. It is provable that the signal ends up in extreme entropy after a few shaping steps, due to the massive resulting amount of high frequency noise in the signal.
Technically, this leads to the reduced ability to perform the DST encoding in an efficient way. DST encoding is based on entropy encoding. It is the more effective the less your entropy is. Practially, this is leading to shorter playingtimes of the SACD disc. (To make it clear: your playingtimes will be reduced because of high frequency noise in the signal. - Isn't that simply crazy?)

Some also state, that repetitive Noise Shaping does lead to an audible deterioration of the signal.

At least, a couple of us know about the negative effects repetitive Noise Shaping has to PCM signals. That is due to mathematical proovable results occurring from Noise Shaping and consecutive requantisation, what is as simple as changing the level by 0.1dB. I know no reason why this law shouldn't be valid for DSD signals. So, for me theoretical and practical experience are consistent. A strong argument.

In the meantime, this has been acknowledged by many. The result is, that more and more people tend to record, edit and mix in multibit formats. That's PCM. One competitor of ours has found a name for one of these formats and calls a simple 24bit or [email protected],8 file DXD. Again: in the end, this is just a PCM file.

Producing in PCM formats and then converting to DSD format therefore seems like the golden way, avoiding repetitive Noise Shaping, as this is not necessary in multi bit formats.

This workflow is possible in many workstations, one of them is Sequoia. Sequoia supports resolutions of up to [email protected] Expect a division of the trackcount you can achieve by the reciprocal of the fs factor. Note that 8 channels of DXD equal to 64 channels of 44,1.
Please also note, that the trackcount in Sequoia is not limited by the audio interface. The trackcount in Sequoia is limited by the ability of your computer only.
We have certified a desktop machine recently that is able to record 128 channels to a single SATA Raid0, what is about the limit of the PCI BUS, - not the CPU, - not the disk. You will be able to do better on a Server platform.

However it is true, that the current soundcard drivers commercially available with standard Windows or ASIO drivers are limited to 192k.
At the day there is better available, and there are signs that this will not be so far away, you will be able to interface higher sampling rates as well. Even now, you can play them back, as the sample rate in Sequoia can be asyncronous to the card sample rate. Don't ask me, if this makes sense...

Best regards,

Sebastian Gabler

MAGIX
Old 19th July 2005
  #7
Thank you Mr. Maas and Mr. Gabler.

I must have misunderstood my supplier. My apologies if I posted false information.
I still might go with sequoia and just convert the DSD to PCM with the Genex and save the DSD original for a later day.

Kjetil Laukholm
Old 19th July 2005
  #8
Lives for gear
 
the1Hub's Avatar
 

ive started working with DSD recently (recording to genex 9000 editing on Pyramix). i am happy to work with this setup. it sounds nice and is vary flexible. the draw back for pyramix right know is that it only supports 8 ch of DSD at one time. that will go up to 16 in the vary near future. but as an editor pyramix is vary powerful. like i said iam new to DSD so My oppinion probably is not worth a dime.

ive also had the good fortune to meet and work with Graemme Brown on a sevral projects. hes probablly the most qualified person to anwser your questions. i will email him a link to this thread.
Old 28th July 2005
  #9
I have made up my mind.
Bought Pyramix today
Thank you all for your input

kjetil
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