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midi drums composition
Old 17th July 2005
  #1
Here for the gear
 
Q Value's Avatar
 

midi drums composition

hello..
im using LM-7 all the time. for dance/rnb everything is good, but when it come to rock/pop, i guess my strokes sound 'midi' (especially during 'rolling', not matter what i do.. quantize it, later compress it, so on.. so any advice for me?
do you know if there's a site offering GM drum templates for various style?

thank you.
Old 17th July 2005
  #2
Gear Nut
 

"use the force luke!!"

translation... do not quantize... trust your instints (groove)
if its that bad practise playing to the click more

me and all my friends use that term for working without quantize snap to grid off ect... trusting your timing and not using that computer aided thing that helps you shoot directly into the core of the death star

lol sorry for being a geek but thats me

another thing worth trying is making your own groove quantize templates..

ie''

practise tapping in your own tempo with a human swing to it

use that midi file to make a groove quantize..
quantize to that

or alternatively try only quantizing the notes that land on the downbeats and leave anything on the upbeat alone unless it needs fixing... then nudge it till its right...


fix the quantize thing... get a good groove on with the gm sounds.. then when you switch it to a better drum kit it will really really make the diff
Old 17th July 2005
  #3
Lives for gear
 

This is an interesting post since it's something I often struggle with ...the perfect midi groove. Normally if you are working with 4 bar loops or so. You want the kik hard quantisised, although I have experimented with kik slightly before and ahead of bar, to give the push and pull of a real drummer, however that can create problems when you want to cut and paste. The problem when you quantise the downbeat but nothing else is that you normally have to move everything else around as well, to compensate for making that first kik a couple of ticks earlier or later. You can also expereiment with the velocities and note lengths. Interestingly I got a book recently on rythm programming. when I imported the midi files into my sequencer to examine them I was kind of surprised to see that everything kiks and snares were hard quantised, the only thing that varied were the velocities, lots of ghost notes. Now, when I programme drums, and I am no expert, I will vary the velocities but will also move snares and kiks and hi hat hits so that they push and pull a bit. Yet this guy who programmed the midi files and is an experinced programmmer had quantised everything...Left me a bit confused.
Old 17th July 2005
  #4
pan
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pan's Avatar
 

Dynamics and Lengths are WAY underrated...
Old 17th July 2005
  #5
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max cooper's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by butterfly
Yet this guy who programmed the midi files and is an experinced programmmer had quantised everything...Left me a bit confused.
There's tons of stuff on the radio that sounds totally square and mechanical.
Old 17th July 2005
  #6
Lives for gear
 

if you are trying to fake people out into thinking you used a live drummer, the best thing is this:

there are a number of "expensive" sample libraries out now, about $300 each. they are usually called "Ultimate drums" and stuff like that. They usually take up 3 gigs of space and come on like 5 cdroms or a big dvd-rom.

what they do is go completely insane with recording live patterns, live fills, live intros, live endings. in different styles and tempos. they also include individual hits from the same micing sessions so you can blend in an extra note when you need to. or you can construct new patterns from the hits.

these tend to be quadruple velocity layered, so when you accent, it's a harder-hit sample, not just the same sample made louder. some are now getting into positional sampling, where you can select if you want a sample hit from the edge of the cymbal or snare or in the center, or in between. also being included is stuff like "do you want it close-miced, or more from the overheads..." etc.

these packages often include midi files that were played by a 'real human'. they aren't quantized down to robot accuracy, but rely on the high-timing resolution of today's midi sequencers to allow the human imperfections to stay in the midi file.
you can use these to create realism too.

the format for this stuff is most often gigasampler.
Old 17th July 2005
  #7
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Q Value
hello..
im using LM-7 all the time. for dance/rnb everything is good, but when it come to rock/pop, i guess my strokes sound 'midi' (especially during 'rolling', not matter what i do.. quantize it, later compress it, so on.. so any advice for me?
do you know if there's a site offering GM drum templates for various style?

thank you.

an lm-7 drum sample library is not going to be capable of capturing drum velocity layers, which is what you need to make your drum rolls less "midi"....not only that, ifyou are banging them parts out on a keyboard, you are trying to ask your fingers to replicate what a real drummer performs with his wrists and hands, not to mention how his body grooves when he/she is playing....

a DrumKat or a set of e-drum pads and a module would be a big improvement for banging out rock/pop midi parts...

it's difficult to get midi drums to sound organic in the pop/rock realm....I've got 80 gigs of DFHS samples and a nice Vdrum kit, and it's still a struggle....
Old 18th July 2005
  #8
Gear Maniac
 
keyboardman's Avatar
 

Hi

If you're trying to do imitative drum programming (that is, sound like a real drummer), timing is only one small part of it. Other equally important parts in no particular order are:

1. the samples

2. the sample playback engine

3. the program that the samples live in

4. dynamics

5. playing the part like a real drummer (that is, one with 2 arms, legs and ears)

6. timing

7. the blend of the individual drums that make up the "kit" when integrated into the "mix"

To me, poor implemention of 4 and 5 are more responsible for sounding "MIDI" than timing.
Old 18th July 2005
  #9
Gear Nut
 

good info in this thread...
i dont spend much time trying to emulate real drummers... as you can see from my first reply.. groove and timing is everything to me however...

maybe someone here can recomend you a good sample kit of real drums that have dedicated snare for rolls... i know i saw these before... but i forget where...
i think it was at a gigastudio demo where a certain patch someone was using had samplemaped a kit with lengh and detail diffrences at the end of the sample to make the roll's sound more real

if i can find it i will post it but someone else here will probably beat me to it

if im not correct it was the same technology that alowed gigastudio to use samples xfading in at the end to simulate legato strings

over at roland on there demo for vdrums they show how they try to do it by manipulating the attack i think,, not as great but better than nothing
Old 18th July 2005
  #10
Here for the gear
 
Q Value's Avatar
 

firstly, thanks a lot guys. you guys really rock!
if im not mistaken, Sonar midi engine has 'pattern' feature in it. it's fine, SL hasnt got one. so is there any www around with drum patterns saved in GM format?
thanks again.
Old 18th July 2005
  #11
Gear Maniac
 

IMHO, after many years of working on MIDI drum tracks (not a drummer by training), anddddd....... working with session drummers who progam MIDI drums (on occasion pretty well known session drummers)-----quantize.

It is not loose timing that make tracks sound good and authentic, it is dynamics and dynamics only. The best drummers play in time every time. Dynamics are the key.

For a drum roll, I would play it in and not quantize. Everything else, quantize.

santo
Old 18th July 2005
  #12
Gear Nut
 

It´s not just dynamics and timing. They are important parameters but it also comes down to variation in sounds. A real drummer hits the drums slightly different every time and you get variation which makes it feel alive.

The best program I´ve heard, that CAN sound like the real thing if programmed right, is DFH Superior.
Every hit is recorded - cant remember - 20 times? So if you program, say a snare, dfh randomizes between those hits. You also got the dynamics, hard and soft hits and so on, not just high and low volumes.
Moreover, every hit on every drum is recorded through ALL mics. So for example, every snare hit is recorded in the tom mics, the OH mics, the Amb mic and so on. This means that you have all the bleed that you will have with real drums and this makes the drum kit feel 3D and real.
It´s also cool that they´ve recorded a lot of different brands, like pearl, dw, ludwig and sonor.
The program is 35GB so it´ll take a bit of your harddrive.

There´s no way you can get LM-7 to sound like real drums. No matter how much you play with timing and dynamics. I sometimes use it to double a real snare but never alone.
Old 18th July 2005
  #13
Old 18th July 2005
  #14
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by popkid
It´s not just dynamics and timing. They are important parameters but it also comes down to variation in sounds. A real drummer hits the drums slightly different every time and you get variation which makes it feel alive.

The best program I´ve heard, that CAN sound like the real thing if programmed right, is DFH Superior.
Every hit is recorded - cant remember - 20 times? So if you program, say a snare, dfh randomizes between those hits. You also got the dynamics, hard and soft hits and so on, not just high and low volumes.
.
I've used just about every drum sample software out there, Vdrums, Ddrums, you name it........I've been using DFH Superior and the new Custom and Vintage for a while now.....I have found that you can come CLOSE to the real thing, but IMHO, it's not quite there yet.....and maybe will never be

If you are doing demos, music for TV, film, radio, etc., there's no question that DFHS is more than adequate...but for capturing a live, organic, musical performance that is interacted with other musicians, it isn't gonna happen...

think about it....now DFHS, BFD, Scarbee Imperial drums or whatever, those libraries supply you with hits that are layered 20 or more times, even randomizes them for you, and you get some semblance of dynamics....the better libraries even give you the option to blend drum mics with bleed, room mics, ambient mics, etc....

BUT...

to take FULL advantage of all of that, you have to have a VERY dynamic drummer playing a great e-drum kit that has the capability also of capturing the nuances of all those dynamics....plus, the computer running the whole shebang must be mammoth in order to record at near zero latency, to get any where near an organic real time performance....

Now let's look at real acoustic drums....

a drummer plays not only hard and soft, but sometimes his stick bounces a little or a lot, sometimes he hits the drum closer to the rim, sometimes away from the rim... every time that happens, you get a whole new set of sounds...listen to some old CREAM records and how Ginger Baker would use an acoustic drum kit to get millions of difference sounds...in actuality, you would need maybe 75-100 layers of samples for every hit to capture a real drummer.....probably a layer of samples for every layer of midi velocity, which is 127.....

in comparison, a real drummer plays with an infinite number of velocities because it varies from hit to hit and it's rarely the exact same thing every time....

that is why you could go out to your garage and get an old rusty brake drum, whack it with a hammer, mic it and record it, and it would sound more dynamic and organic than a midi drum performance....it's infinitely more variable and unpredictable....

that being said, I love DFHS ...the new Custom and Vintage is awesome.....I just don't think it is going to able to replace real drums played by a real drummer
Old 18th July 2005
  #15
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John The Cut's Avatar
 

All good advice..

Here's my 2 cents

LM-7 sucks. Is is THE worst drum sampler.. ever - you are never going to get anything else other than "MIDI" drums.

Move on

Personally I use BFD and DFHS C&V and this is a lethal combination.

But you may want to look at something liek Battery from Native iNstruments - you get some fairly good kits included, its a little easier on the system and more versatile than the BFD/DFHS libraries.

thx
Old 18th July 2005
  #16
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain54
I've been using DFH Superior and the new Custom and Vintage for a while now.....I have found that you can come CLOSE to the real thing, but IMHO, it's not quite there yet.....and maybe will never be
Yes. Agree. I wrote that DFH Superior can sound like the real thing, but I´d rather say - like you- close to. And that is, also as you said, if used in combination with a good e-drum kit.

But moving from LM-7 to something like Superior would be a good step up, dont you all think? heh

But in 10 years there´ll be sample libraries with thousands of hits, bleed, and "humanize"options. My guess is that there will be programs that sound like the real thing, its just a matter of time (larger hard drives, faster processors/RAM)
Old 18th July 2005
  #17
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junior's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by santo
It is not loose timing that make tracks sound good and authentic, it is dynamics and dynamics only. The best drummers play in time every time. Dynamics are the key.
c'mon. i've -never- heard a live drummer who sounds "quantized"... no matter how solid his time is. time shifting is an important part of "dynamics"...

if you're going for realism, take it easy on the quantizing. it can suck the feel out of a track...
Old 18th July 2005
  #18
Gear Head
 

I use the Roland V-drums ( my drummers perform with the v-drums terrible sound) then I change it to BFD in combination with sound replacer in my ProTools rig , keeping most of the feel and is great for demos and T.V stuff.I have DFH(have not ha the time to experiment with DFH) , but not DFH superior is it better than BFD?
Old 19th July 2005
  #19
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Curtis Franklin's Avatar
 

wait, you use sound replacer? why not just use midi?

also if you want to make cool loops play for a LOOONG time, then take the best measure. also remember you dont have to take beats 1234 in order you could do 2341 2412 2123 so slong as you have them all, then just LOOP it.

woot
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