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parralell compression in Tools
Old 16th June 2005
  #1
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superburtm's Avatar
 

parralell compression in Tools

Hey guys I might be crazy but on my system when I mix ITB for speed and money conservation. I swear that when I create subgroups for drum compression by bussing from the original tracs to (aux) subgroups and in this case both the orginal track and the subgroup feed the 2bus it works without issue. BUT the only time it works with out comb filtering coming into the picture is when I use the digirack compressors and Eqs on the subgrou (nofancy smancy plug ins). I'm using a dual 1.25 Mac G4 running 6.4 ptle on a digi oo2. Is this possibly true or am I failing to hear the issues?
Old 16th June 2005
  #2
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superburtm's Avatar
 

crap sorry about the spelling I mean parallel.
Old 16th June 2005
  #3
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5down1up's Avatar
 

dont know bout LE . the way you describe it , pt compensates for the delay the aux creates when using digi plugs .

i am on mix so when i do it i just route the deisred tracks to lets say bus 1-2 .
open up 2 stereo aux tracks and feed em with bus 1-2 .
bus 1-2 hits the master out .
if i do any processing on bus 1-2 a , i need to compensate the delay with f.ex time adjuster on bus 1-2 b .

there are some plugs i cant make work right as well . they simply show the wrong delay time in the meter options . even so , most numbers that are in the digidesign manual dont work for me .
f.ex 888/24 says adda 81 samples . over here its 71 !

it works ok , you just have to find out yourslef , whyever that is ?



" but its in the manual "
Old 16th June 2005
  #4
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i dont think LE has plugin delay compensation--i know 6.4 doesn't. as a workaround, you can put the plugs on *both* tracks, which will (in theory) induce the same amount of delay to both tracks--just bypass them on the clean track. this eats dsp quickly, though. you could also print the effects, then go in and manually line the two tracks back up.

--jon
Old 16th June 2005
  #5
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First of all PT LE doesn't offer ADC (automatic delay compensation).
That said, I think the reason that you're not hearing comb filtering is that Digi rack comp and EQ's only introduce 4 samples of delay oppose to other "fancy" plug-ins introducing a lot more. Hence the flamming phasing effect when trying to do parallel compression with other plug-ins you are talking about.
Old 16th June 2005
  #6
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5down1up's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by superburtm
both the orginal track and the subgroup feed the 2bus it works without issue.
please read once again

i know an aux in tdm land creates a delay . if you would route an audio track to a bus and to the master @ the same time , theres no way fighting phasing in tdm land . if hes doing it the way he describes it and gets 0 phasing whats the case then ?

thats how i understood the problem :

audio track routed to -> main out & bus x-y , bus x-y will be processed . with digi plugs no issues . only way that works for me is using an analog board !

Old 16th June 2005
  #7
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blackcatdigi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by superburtm
I swear that when I create subgroups for drum compression by bussing from the original tracs to (aux) subgroups and in this case both the orginal track and the subgroup feed the 2bus it works without issue.
You're correct. LE is different from TDM. (Most) delays are internally compensated.

Again, there is no delay in LE (unless you use some of the really cpu hoggish plugs).
Old 17th June 2005
  #8
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superburtm's Avatar
 

awesome feedback guys.. I guess I'll jus keep doing what I do and stop thinking about until I can actually hear a problem.

Thanks!
Old 17th June 2005
  #9
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max cooper's Avatar
 

Just an aside about using a bypassed plugin to equalize the inherent delay:

On some plugins, this works, however on others it's necessary to open the plugin and set it to 1:1 or the threshold to not engage the compressor or something. I don't remember which are which way, though.
Old 17th June 2005
  #10
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superburtm's Avatar
 

MAX,
if I do this on say the drums, wouldn't all of my drums be 4ms late to all the other tracks?
Old 17th June 2005
  #11
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JonCraig's Avatar
 

yes... that's why i put ALL my plugins on ALL my tracks!!!











(joke)

--jon
Old 17th June 2005
  #12
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There is no delay compensation needed in LE for the majority of plug-ins and there is zero delay incurrred while bussing.. so if you use a buss with the majority of RTAS plug-ins you'll have zero delay. Look-ahead compressors, etc do incur delay.. but the majority of the plug-ins which incur delay are also the type which would be used on the master fader (L2, etc).

Rail
Old 17th June 2005
  #13
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superburtm's Avatar
 

Rail Jon Rogut,
Thanks for the info.. Another question for you though. So if I'm using two aux channels in PT to buss 2 mics to one audio track would there be any funny latency issues? Does it matter what the harware buffer is set to?
Old 17th June 2005
  #14
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No, and this is simple to test by recording a click via 2 busses to an audio track. All of these simple questions can be easily tested by taking a recording of a click and bussing it to another track and recording it and comparing the timing.

Rail
Old 17th June 2005
  #15
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blackcatdigi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rail Jon Rogut
No, and this is simple to test by recording a click via 2 busses to an audio track. All of these simple questions can be easily tested by taking a recording of a click and bussing it to another track and recording it and comparing the timing.

Rail
Exactly. Can't anyone figure out how to test this, themselves?
Additionally, it is pretty simple to figure out the converter latency in bussing with just a patch cable...

FWIW I've had this exact discussion dozens of times since the 001 was released; Most recently with Curve Dominant on another forum.
Old 18th June 2005
  #16
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5down1up's Avatar
 

i need to play around a lil with the 002 if i get the chance .
like i said already , in tdm land , even when i throw just an " trim rtas " plug on the channel , like f.ex on one overhead track i SWEAR it sounds different . i make sure i have those plugs on all the related channels .

sometimes if i am processing stuff analog i cant align the recorded track for real without getting that nasty phasey sound . should be easy ... i know

but sometimes it just doesnt work .
Old 18th June 2005
  #17
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aaronsternke's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by superburtm
MAX,
if I do this on say the drums, wouldn't all of my drums be 4ms late to all the other tracks?
Hi,
I'm not MAX, but remember we're talking about SAMPLES here, not Milliseconds. 4 SAMPLES at 48k = .083 Milliseconds.

Also, you might know this, but if you apple-click on the volume bar a few times, it will show you the delay happening in that track due to plugins.
Old 18th June 2005
  #18
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5down1up
i need to play around a lil with the 002 if i get the chance .
like i said already , in tdm land , even when i throw just an " trim rtas " plug on the channel , like f.ex on one overhead track i SWEAR it sounds different . i make sure i have those plugs on all the related channels .

sometimes if i am processing stuff analog i cant align the recorded track for real without getting that nasty phasey sound . should be easy ... i know

but sometimes it just doesnt work .
TDM is a completely different animal.. that's why there's ADC for TDM systems. Using a buss in TDM adds delay.. which ADC accounts for.

Rail
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