Sure, stuff happens with every brand every time...
Like I said, I've had an AF12 AND an AF8 for more than 3 years, working EVERYDAY...
They're still at the same studio, I'm not, but they keep working.
Sorry about your experience.
I also had great experiences with RME and I would buy any of those brands again.

yes its a shame but every system has its own quirks in incompatibilities

i have a maudio fast track ultra that doesnt work on one of my pc notebooks

but I know its not the ultra's fault

sure, the audioartifacts and everything... i agree that is probably a system specific uncompatibility. but you guys must admit that killing a piece of hardware with a driver update is a rather uncommon thing (that's why the rme fireface keeps a copy of the firmware stored in case the update goes wrong it goes back to that one). that's what made me angry mostly, i've read of similar experiences by other users so it seems to be a recurring thing with echo devices. oh well...

This could happen to any interface with flash memory used to store it's settings.
Especially if the power went down during the update.
You should bring it to a tech for repair, should be fixable.

Love my AF 12. No problems whatsoever.

depends on how it is built. as said in an earlier post, as far as i know the rme fireface keeps a copy of the firmware as a backup stored, in case it can't load the new one it will reload the old one.

anything i need to know about daisychaining two AF 12's - i just ordered a pair for my 24 channel Miami Vice Topaz. is it as simple as connecting the Firewire together and connecting one to the computer?

Yep... but a wordclock cable is a good idea too...

damn, one more thing to buy

i'll test them without and see how it does. then i'll pick one up.

Go ahead and test them for fun but order the word clock cable now. You'll want it (unless you find that jitter suits your artistic tastes)

Blinky,

Any word? I've got an old analog board and thinking of doing the same ( 2x AF12) to get 24 i/o to a Macbook Pro 15" via FW.

didnt read this whole thread but i have to say that I think the AF12 is decent at best. good bang for buck, bu the thing is, the more inputs you use on this thing the more "hazy" things sounded. there is a cloudiness to the conversion that gets compounded the more tracks you have coming in (and out) of it. I did a summing solution using this box with a Speck X-Sum and then A/B'd it with 8 outs from a Rosetta. I couldnt begin to describe how the haziness disappeared with the Apogee. now, I hear ya, unfair comparison, but still, you get the point.

its a great box for the money though. cheap way to get a mix out to a console or a summing box, but YMMV.

actually..... I don't get your point. These products are in such a different price range that I can't see any reason to compare them. I'm trying not to sound snarky but considering that you didn't bother to actually read the thread, you coming in here and making that comment just makes no sense. It's like you just walked into the room and shouted "mine is bigger than your's". Ok, that was snarky, I admit, but don't you see what I mean? We're talking about the merits of a consumer priced sensible device ( think "minivan") that will get the job done and fit our lifestyle/budget, and you come in and point out that your Farari will go a lot faster than our minivan. There is an art to conversation and helpful exchange of ideas that is lacking in your post. Sorry for being such a school marm in pointing this out, but...... <shrug>

sorry you took that so sensitively. at any rate, my point was a valid one, in that, making such a comparison I would say is absolutely helpful for someone who may consider purchasing the Echo (minivan). Understanding how it measures up to other pieces, such as a Rosetta 800 ("Farari") is the type of comparisons that make up a huge percentage of gear discussions on this site. Sorry if that came off "snarky" to you. I think some may find it helpful. Some may not, and that is fine.
Also, I own both "The Minivan" and the "Farari" (of course, you meant Ferrari, right?), so I felt my comparison was certainly fair in that I am a user of both pieces. Not to mention, the price points for both "cars" in this case are not that far off, so a true slut probably would appreciate such opinions.

I certainly feel both pieces are good ones. My only point was, through my intensive experience with both, is that the conversion on the Echo's piles up a haze that the Apogee does not. that's all.

hope this helps out someone trying to gather info on the Echo.

I believe the Rosetta will sound better when using 24 channels... but to have 24 channels of Rosetta you'll have to spend what? 5-7K?
With the Audiofire it's barely 1.2K.
If I only had 5K and had to choose go analog summing with AF or staying ITB with Apogee... I would go analog...

It's true that this site is *full* of such comparisons and I respect your right to value them, but I find it ridiculous to compare a box that cost $250/channel of converter to a box that cost $50 per channel of converter.

Regardless, our agreement to disagree does not offer any value to this thread so I'll shut up now.

Hard to judge without audio evidence. I was pleasantly surprised with the Audiofire 12. It's very functional for the price and sounds as good as duet to my ears. I don't have a Rosetta or maybe not golden ears.

My big grip was a lack of ADAT :(

I only really heard the haze in a mix with a heavy track count, recorded all with the Echo. I also heard it when I came out 8 outputs (and more so all 12) into some summing gear. I didn't with 8 out from the Apogee.
But you're right, it's unfair without audio evidence. I'll see if I can produce some for you guys.

evidence please!

I can hear any audible difference at all between 2-12 channels

I cant really think as to why there would be any technical reason for the to be any difference either!

actually, the AF has some kind of unusual noise floor... I think this has something to do with how it sounds... maybe, if you stack 24 channels of it... this noise will be more audible... maybe that's what frontierfan is talking about.

I round trip tracks through my AF12 during mix down in order to use my HW compressors. Never noticed any noise. <shrug>

If someone would like to provide a sound file I'd be happy to round trip it through my AF12 if someone else would like to do the same through other converters and then we can all listen and compare for ourselves.

Agreed The rosett always sounds better with 24 channels. Thanks

Yeah, I've used 16 channels of AF conversion (12 from the AF12 and 4 from the AF8 which uses the same converters) and never had a problem with noise... not from the converters... my pre-amps and compressors where much noiser than the converters

sparqee,
how are you able to roundtrip tracks using the AF12? what driver/DAW/OS are you using? i've tried to do this, and was unable to, and echoaudio tech support confirmed it was not possible. if you could help me figure out how to do it, i would be forever in your debt...

Not possible? It depends on your DAW... if I'm not mistaken any DAW can do this today.
Just send you audio out to one AF output channel and back into one input channel.
Reaper, Pro Tools, Cubase, Nuendo, they all do that with the right plugins/functions even compensate for the delay...
I don't know what you're talking about...

Yeah, I'm using Cubase 5 and I have most of my AF12 I/O configured as external send/receive channels so that I can use my HW during mix down.

It sounds like you mean something different when you say "round trip". What are you trying to do?

sparqee/jeronimo,

what i'm trying to do is send a track out of the AF12, run it through a hardware unit, and record the signal coming back on a new track. i've tried sending it out on matching channels (for example out on channel 1, and back in on channel 1), and i've tried sending it out on non-matched channels (for example out on channel 1, in on channel 5). i could get it out, and into my hardware, but it would not take the channel routed back in to record.

i have several other sound cards, and i can do this with those other cards with no issues (m-audio delta 10/10, art tubefire8, creative soundblaster). so i know that my DAW can support it, and i know my routing is not messed up. when i contacted echoaudio, they said the audiofire was not capable of this, and i wasn't able to get it to work, so i assumed that it was a feature that the unit was not capable of.

i use tracktion 2 primarily to track, and protools or reaper to mix on a win7 pc. i've been recording digitally since 2000, and i've put in plenty of time in a studio (in other words, i'm not a knucklehead).

http://i.imgur.com/Nts1r.jpg
see marcel's reply at the bottom

Hey Sean... sorry bro, but your question really "sounded" like a newbie... I don't want to have an attitude towards you.. sorry about that.
Well... I don't know any soundcard that IS NOT full duplex since... I don't know... the early nineties...
So... I can bet money there is something wrong with your settings either on Trackion or somewhere else.
Are you into Reaper?
Well... go to Reaper, create a track put a kick drum on this track (I mean, an audio recorded from a kick drum)
Play it
click on the channel "send" on the mixer.
create a new "Audio Hardware Output"
route it to whatever channel you want on the AF12, let's say number 3
create a new track
configure it to record input 3 from the AF12
put it into record monitoring ON (if it's not like this already)
patch your output 3 into your input 3 with a cable
push play (if you haven't yet)
and tell me you don't hear anything??!?!?!
I could have forgotten something... but I doubt it.
I also don't have my Echos anymore... so please, check your AF console doesn't have all the channels outputs MUTED... that could be a problem heh
let me know what you find.

Reading Marcel's response I'm pretty sure he misinterpreted your use of the word "duplex". His response seems to indicate that he's referring to the monitor capabilities of the Echo control panel.

Regardless, the AF12 is quite capable of routing audio out to HW and then back in (for recording). Let's say you set up audio input X and record audio to track 1 in your DAW. Then you send audio track 1 to output Y of the AF12. The meters on the AF12 should indicate audio passing on output Y. You hook up your HW to output Y. You see meter activity on your HW. You hook up your HW output to input X of the AF12. Does the meter on the AF12 show activity on input X? If so you should be able to record it in your DAW because you just recorded your mic/instrument through input X.

At what point does the above process fail?

Yeah, I've done that myself and gotten confused. :P

sparqee/jeronimo,

hey guys thanks for your help with this. it looks like i needed to unmute the inputs in the AF12 control panel. i felt like an idiot when i realized that's what it was. also, i found that i was not able to take the output of channel 1, and route it back on input 1 as it causes a feedback loop. but taking output channel 1 and returning it on input 2 worked fine.

thanks again!