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UAD2 is a PCIE card Dynamics Plugins
Old 31st May 2008
  #391
The thing is, we aren't moving host based systems forward so much by clock speed and efficiency improvements now, as by parallelism. How long was the delay between dual core machines to quad core machines and dual quad core machines? They can move forward in power very quickly now, and every increase in efficiency is mulitiplied by the number of cores. If a quad quad core is supported in off the shelf OSes in a couple years, that will allow them to process a lot of data.

They do have a good reputation for the plugins, but that's a fairly flimsy platform to stand on. When you are ProTools type companies, you basically keep the competition away because the investment required to compete with you is so tremendous that it's almost impossible to unseat you, unless the market went through some very discontinuous jump in size that would make that investment by worth it. But that doesn't seem likely.

When you are in the software world, unless you have a very large product the development of which would act as the same sort of deterrent, you can get whacked a lot easier. For plugin sized development, a few very tallented people could be competitive in their spare time. Not against someone like Waves which just has an enormous collection of plugs. They do have that size deterrent. I'm not sure UA has it though. It's made worse by the fact that you have to buy this dongle like hardware to use them, which makes a native plug of similar quality a lot more attractive, and which only runs UAD plugs, which gets you into various latency issues if you need to mix them and so on.

Anyway, I'm not trying to talk them out of business. I'm just debating for argument's sake. They still sell a lot of analog hardware as well, so I'm sure that they do OK on that front as well, and I'd like to buy some more of it to help them stay healthy. And I really would like to see someone come along and provide that PTHD3 * 10 system. But the gotcha is that it almost has to be Digi who does it, since without the plugin support, you just have a really nice box of hardware. Like MS, Digi is in the position where the top players consider Digi's health their health, so they work to improve Digi's position in order to improve their position. That's always a key way that the dominant player keeps everyone else down and it's hard to beat.

Probably the only way around that is that it would have to be by some really big player who could just effectively scare all the big plugin makers into supporting them purely by announcing they were getting into the game. But what's the chance of that? Probably not much at all. There are other players like PowerCore and whatnot, but they never really attract enough of the big plugin players to field a purely DSP based solution.
Old 31st May 2008
  #392
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peeder's Avatar
 

UA has the Neve license. Waves has the SSL and API license. But still, UA has the Neve license! That is a YYOOOOOGE win for that company. Their model isn't to be a platform for 3rd party plugin development...instead it's to go clone the very best hardware in the world. They just did the dbx 160VU without a license, showing they don't particularly need a license to do it. They have the Helios, Empirical, Roland and Valley People licenses too. Oh yeah, and they can model their own hardware!

And their plugins are better than the Waves plugins. Not because of some myth about DSP hardware, but because of better coding. Waves has a lot of decent stuff, UAD has a few really outstanding things, but still, enough for nearly all needs. And UAD is cheaper and doesn't get completely biohazardous on piracy issues since they never screwed up their copy protection scheme.

UA has been forced to squeeze all those plugins into an ancient video card while they develop this new thing. I think it's entirely likely they will release "XE" editions of all their top plugins for the new architecture, that will bring a whole new level of reality to ITB work.

And if they have their own audio engine, the latency issues will actually be on host-based plugins, not accelerated ones...just like on TDM.

So I'm very enthusiastic about this possibility. I think the DSP cards will be basically free, the plugins will remain 1/4th---ONE FOURTH---the price of TDM plugins. And the interface will have converters (and possibly preamps) that people are actually excited about using rather than just being an enabling technology.

UA has the whole Bay Area brain trust to draw from, just like Digi does, and a Stanford B-school grad CEO. I'm certain an established company of that nature can develop a compelling competitor to Pro Tools on the hardware side, and win the support of many of the DAW competitors on the software side. Not to mention other audio hardware companies who might be interested in giving them more licenses.
Old 31st May 2008
  #393
Quote:
And if they have their own audio engine, the latency issues will actually be on host-based plugins, not accelerated ones...just like on TDM.
The latency issue I was talking about is because they cannot provide a full set of tools. So, if I use a bass amp simulator, and I want a compressor before it, and an EQ after it, but the amp sim isn't DSP based, that means either I can't use any DSP based compressor, or I have to make a trip down to the device to the compressor, back up to the host for the sim, back down to the device for the EQ, and back up the host for the final output. So that add a lot of extra latency relative to either a full DSP based system or a fully native based system. And if you use any sort of amp sims or soft synths you have to monitor through the DAW, so latency is important and perhaps already iffy even before the need for the extra trips.

With a fully native system you avoid that. Or, with a fully DSP based system, and with PTs it doesn't even back up to the host in order to get out to the D/A, so it can have a single trip down to the card from disc. And they have various high quality amp sims that run on the DSP system.
Old 31st May 2008
  #394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
The latency issue I was talking about is because they cannot provide a full set of tools. So, if I use a bass amp simulator, and I want a compressor before it, and an EQ after it, but the amp sim isn't DSP based, that means either I can't use any DSP based compressor, or I have to make a trip down to the device to the compressor, back up to the host for the sim, back down to the device for the EQ, and back up the host for the final output. So that add a lot of extra latency relative to either a full DSP based system or a fully native based system. And if you use any sort of amp sims or soft synths you have to monitor through the DAW, so latency is important and perhaps already iffy even before the need for the extra trips.

With a fully native system you avoid that. Or, with a fully DSP based system, and with PTs it doesn't even back up to the host in order to get out to the D/A, so it can have a single trip down to the card from disc. And they have various high quality amp sims that run on the DSP system.
As I've mentioned, the first questions on the survey were about their old card-based amp sim, Nigel. I am 100% certain they will put out a new amp sim if they do this interface/audio engine idea. It will probably devastate the competition if they do (judging from their other models).

But again, this is a high-end thing, and while I do use amp sims while mixing at times, most high-end people use the real thing.

It's very hard to have your soul pour out of an amp sim.
Old 31st May 2008
  #395
Even if you don't use amp sims, it still applies to any plugins you want to use that aren't available on the DSP. So wideners, delays, flangers, chorus, maximizers, warmers, ect... If you need to put one of those on a track, and it's intermixed with DSP plugs, it can be an issue. If it's on an f/x buss it would often be the same problem, in that it has to come back up to the bus, then go back down to go through any DSP plugs on subsequent buses like the master bus.

It's obviously less of an issue for those folks in a more traditional scenario where they are just tracking audio and don't really get into this until the mixing stage where the latency isn't an issue. I'm not sure how much these days that strictly applies even in pro scenarios. But, then again, at the top end, they are just going to buy PT's and be done with it probably. There are so many other, non-technical, forces driving commercial studios to PTs that they probably would override other concerns most of the time I guess. The whole need to be interoperable with other studios probably looms large and to be able to support all the top end plugs that are only available for PTs (damn them...)
Old 31st May 2008
  #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
Even if you don't use amp sims, it still applies to any plugins you want to use that aren't available on the DSP. So wideners, delays, flangers, chorus, maximizers, warmers, ect... If you need to put one of those on a track, and it's intermixed with DSP plugs, it can be an issue. If it's on an f/x buss it would often be the same problem, in that it has to come back up to the bus, then go back down to go through any DSP plugs on subsequent buses like the master bus.

It's obviously less of an issue for those folks in a more traditional scenario where they are just tracking audio and don't really get into this until the mixing stage where the latency isn't an issue. I'm not sure how much these days that strictly applies even in pro scenarios. But, then again, at the top end, they are just going to buy PT's and be done with it probably. There are so many other, non-technical, forces driving commercial studios to PTs that they probably would override other concerns most of the time I guess. The whole need to be interoperable with other studios probably looms large and to be able to support all the top end plugs that are only available for PTs (damn them...)
Yep these are the network effects and increasing returns that lead to platform monopolies (viz M$). So all you can do is do the best you can to create a higher-value alternative. UA is going to have to underprice and overdeliver...which they've had to on their plugins already.

Digi has some weaknesses in the senior management level, I sense, and it may be that Digi hangs onto post but UA makes major inroads on music before Digi wakes up and responds. Apple, Steinberg, Cockos, lots of companies will be all too happy to help UA produce a formidable Pro Tools competitor in the music space. And you have people like me (a Pro Tools user since 1997) who are rooting for them anyway!

At least it should be interesting to watch. I know there are several people here who would prefer a truly boring gear industry.
Old 31st May 2008
  #397
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B-San's Avatar
 

Competition creates innovation... long live UA, Sonar and all other DAW apps!
Old 31st May 2008
  #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peeder View Post
As I've mentioned, the first questions on the survey were about their old card-based amp sim, Nigel. I am 100% certain they will put out a new amp sim if they do this interface/audio engine idea. It will probably devastate the competition if they do (judging from their other models).

But again, this is a high-end thing, and while I do use amp sims while mixing at times, most high-end people use the real thing.

It's very hard to have your soul pour out of an amp sim.
i have enough friends playin on a Korg Tonelab or Line6 when they have
studio jobs.im sure UA can match this with an external box in the future.
Old 6th June 2008
  #399
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Electronique's Avatar
 

OMG
OMG
Clear your cookies and refresh refresh refresh!!!

UAD-2 Announced on the UAD Website!!!
Old 6th June 2008
  #400
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peeder's Avatar
 

Not seeing anything here yet...

Screenshots please?

Maybe the web team slipped and now the announcement has been withdrawn again?
Old 6th June 2008
  #401
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SoundEng1's Avatar
Where?
Old 6th June 2008
  #402
Gear Maniac
 

april 1st was 2 months ago dude
Old 6th June 2008
  #403
Jax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electronique View Post
OMG
OMG
Clear your cookies and refresh refresh refresh!!!

UAD-2 Announced on the UAD Website!!!
I bet the 'arts n crafts' you did on your post took you awhile. Here's a screenshot of what you had to do.

Old 6th June 2008
  #404
Jax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peeder View Post
Not seeing anything here yet...

Screenshots please?

Maybe the web team slipped and now the announcement has been withdrawn again?
Don't be so gullible. lol
Old 6th June 2008
  #405
Gear Addict
 
Lownotes's Avatar
 

Not funny!
Old 6th June 2008
  #406
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Electronique's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax View Post
I bet the 'arts n crafts' you did on your post took you awhile. Here's a screenshot of what you had to do.

Sorry. Guys I just woke up..
I must have slept typed..
Old 6th June 2008
  #407
Gear Maniac
 

Boooooooooo.

Get off the stage!
Old 6th June 2008
  #408
Lives for gear
 

very lame........ don't do that!!
Old 1st July 2008
  #409
Gear Head
 

Any news on this bugger?!

Cheers,
Raffaele
Old 1st July 2008
  #410
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ProducerBoy's Avatar
 

Twice! Twice this crap thread has gotten me all excited for nothing.
Why hasn't this thread been deleted or at least moved to so much gear, or something?
Old 1st July 2008
  #411
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I have the gut feeling that UA is going to release the new platform(either a more powerful DSP or a native solution) with version 5.0. I mean they have to!

No mac pro compatibility+the war declaration from waves+their OUTDATED platform.. They're totally s*****d if they don't react fast!! Don't you guys agree?AES, Namm @ the most. This free voucher thing ain't cutting no more ..heh.. People don't buy their plug in anymore even if the sound fantastic because we ain't got nuff juice.. 1 33609 with 2 card @ 88.2 is absurd tutt, no matter how good it sound! I think this uad2 and fatso ain't a typo like they said.. They will release something this fall winter! Let's keep our finger crossed
Old 1st July 2008
  #412
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ProducerBoy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by solidstate View Post
I think this uad2 and fatso ain't a typo like they said.. They will release something this fall winter! Let's keep our finger crossed
No doubt. That typo cover up was polite BS.
I'm gonna put my money on October AES in Frisco. That puts it a month after I need it most. (big fall/winter project)
Their actions to clear out inventory (price cuts on hardware) gives me hope that there will be a reason for this being "a very good year" for uad users (to quote a UA rep).
Old 1st July 2008
  #413
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I have to say - I've never jumped on the hater bandwagon - I've always used my UAD plugs in conjunction with the SSL bundle etc. I've used Cubase and Logic and could freeze if I needed to...but I've got to say, since I've been working in Pro Tools, the whole no delay comp thing has pretty much rendered them useless. I don't have time for math. I can slap on TONS of the SSL bundle and I have to say it sounds pretty damn good. I'm going to demo the Puig stuff and it's good I might just bail and sell...
Old 1st July 2008
  #414
Gear Head
 
fatcat's Avatar
 

Johnkenn...It's PTle's fault for not having ADC. Great sounding plugins need time to process. Uad is a great product, PTle not so much.
Old 1st July 2008
  #415
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UA plugs? They seem fine for a laugh... and square waves.
Old 1st July 2008
  #416
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Animus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stag View Post
UA plugs? They seem fine for a laugh... and square waves.
huh? If you get square waves with UAD plugins you might want to take some mixing classes and learning about proper gain staging and maybe take off that brickwall limiter. ;-)
Old 1st July 2008
  #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
huh? If you get square waves with UAD plugins you might want to take some mixing classes and learning about proper gain staging and maybe take off that brickwall limiter. ;-)
Thanks, man! I´d better do that. Not with UA stuff doe. Those are for trainees. I prefer the Cubase 4 bundle for now.
Old 2nd July 2008
  #418
LX3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solidstate View Post
I have the gut feeling that UA is going to release the new platform(either a more powerful DSP or a native solution) with version 5.0. I mean they have to!

No mac pro compatibility+the war declaration from waves+their OUTDATED platform.. They're totally s*****d if they don't react fast!! Don't you guys agree?AES, Namm @ the most. This free voucher thing ain't cutting no more ..heh.. People don't buy their plug in anymore even if the sound fantastic because we ain't got nuff juice.. 1 33609 with 2 card @ 88.2 is absurd tutt, no matter how good it sound! I think this uad2 and fatso ain't a typo like they said.. They will release something this fall winter! Let's keep our finger crossed
Yes... but the 33609 does sound really great! I used it seriously for the first time this weekend (on my Mac Pro... Quad Core) and was blown away. In a mastering scenario a 33609 taking up a whole card is fine with me when it sounds like that.

I agree, the sooner UA get a UAD-2 out, the better (then I have space for a Duende )... but there's no denying the UA plugs sound awesome, and underpowered DSP or not, at the end of the day, it's the sound that matters to me. After just a month with UAD I'd hate to have to mix without it.

As for UA v Waves... one company offers continual discounts and deals on their plugs, while the other company charges you an annual fee to keep the plugins you've already paid for working properly. I've been a Waves user for over ten years, and after the trials they've put me thru, dealing with UA has been a breath of fresh air.

My fingers are crossed too, but while we're waiting, I'm pretty content.

Paul
Old 2nd July 2008
  #419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProducerBoy View Post
Twice! Twice this crap thread has gotten me all excited for nothing.
Why hasn't this thread been deleted or at least moved to so much gear, or something?
What would be the logic in that? Doesn't So Much Gear imply an introduction of gear first?
Old 2nd July 2008
  #420
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ProducerBoy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WidgetNinja View Post
What would be the logic in that? Doesn't So Much Gear imply an introduction of gear first?
So much gear = "General recording equipment discussion..."

just throwing it out there since we don't have a vaporware forum...

not important enough for a ninja anyway.
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