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Why can't anybody make a KILLER de'esser? Dynamics Plugins
Old 9th January 2003
  #1
Lives for gear
 

Why can't anybody make a KILLER de'esser?

Why? How hard can it be? With the amount of EQ and compression happening on modern vocals, de'essing has become an all-too-often fact of life when mixing.

Probably the best hardware unit I've used is the Publison Fulmost. The DBX 902, which I've owned plenty of myself, is merely "OK", IMO.

Plugins generally fare worse than the hardware units in my experience. Why? I don't get it.

The ideal plugin de'esser would have, in addition to the usual Threshhold, Freq, Range limit and wideband/narrowband/lowpass options, these two simple additional controls.

A. Variable Feedforward Time. To enable instant and even negative attack times. Just give me at least a negative 1ms attack and I'm thrilled.

B. Release Envelope. For control of the release characteristics of the filter.

I think the reason de'essing is so difficult to make transparent is often a combination of the Attack being ever so slightly late, allowing the onset of the "S" to leak through. Then, people apply too great an amount of de'essing in a futile attempt to catch that first ms of "S".

Conversely, if the release envelope is virtually instantaneous, there is a slightly unnatural transition out of de'essing. This combo of shortcomings yields the dreaded lisping results.

FWIW, I've made de'essers with negative attack times by offsetting a duplicate track forward in time and triggering a DBX 902 via sidechain. Works waaaaay better, so I'm not guessing here. In the software domain, these specs should be child's play.

So why is this so hard for somebody to figure out? And why should I need 2 tracks and the hassle to roll my own?


Regards,
Brian T
Old 9th January 2003
  #2
Compression of HF is always a problem isnt it...?

Look at FM radio HF compresssion

Or compressing a glockenspeil....

I think 'look ahead' systems are ok with bass signals but get upge****ed with HF signals..

I call to the bar one - George Massenburg!

George are you here?



Great question BTW!
Old 9th January 2003
  #3
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dave-G's Avatar
Without having your two added features, the semi-obscure UREI LA-22 does a pretty good job with its split-band quasi-parametric freq-specific compression.

-dave
Old 9th January 2003
  #4
Gear Maniac
 

Has anyone ever used a Avalon 747 for that ?
Of course it`s not a de-esser, but with the adjustable sidechain filters I had great results of "de-essing" finished mixes, but never tried it on vocals.

By the way, I have a Publison Fullmost for sale. If anyone is interested please write me a mail.
Old 9th January 2003
  #5
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Renie's Avatar
 

The ISA 430 is rumoured to have great de-essing but yes, software?

Maybe Sony will add one to the Dynamics plug.
Old 9th January 2003
  #6
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atticus's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
Or compressing a glockenspeil....


Compression is really the only way to get the "modern" glockenspeil sound though..... It'll never stand up on radio without it!heh
Old 9th January 2003
  #7
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cram's Avatar
 

What's wrong with side-chaining guys? I get way better de-essing results with a PEQ in the sidechain than with my 902's. I have some cheap (but good) 242's in my rack for just this purpose.
Old 9th January 2003
  #8
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Nothing's wrong with sidechaining.

But conversley, what's wrong with a plugin maker designing in a superior feature set to make the whole process faster, easier and more effective? You don't have to use an autolocator with a tape deck either, but it sure makes things easier. Same principle.

I think there may simply be a slight lack of understanding among the software guys of the possibilities presented in the DAW domain for improvement in de'essing. I say this as a guy who started rolling my own sidechained de'essers 25 years ago. A plugin on a DAW presents superior de'essing possibilities relative to analog hardware, IMO.


Regards,
Brian T
Old 9th January 2003
  #9
Gear Maniac
 
cram's Avatar
 

Oh, I gotcha, you want to stay native. Don't the UAD and ButtFuctry plugz have side chains?

I use hardware, so I wouldn't know. Seems like a huge oversight to me.
Old 10th January 2003
  #10
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groundcontrol's Avatar
 

The Sony dynamics plug-in has a flexible 2 band eq that you can patch in the signal chain or in the side-chain to do freq. conscious dynamic processing to your heart's content. Check it out, there's a downloadable demo.
Old 10th January 2003
  #11
Really!?

I better have a look then!

BT you could have that by adding a Powercore card if Sony port the comp over to that platform.....I will try to report back how good it works.. I am mixing right now using the Sony comp on vocals.. (BTW the artist LOVED the vocal sound the minuite he heard it.... I was suprized.. I wonder if it was the Sony he was digging, I used a tad compression and some of the warmth function)

Jules
Old 10th January 2003
  #12
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Renie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by groundcontrol
The Sony dynamics plug-in has a flexible 2 band eq that you can patch in the signal chain or in the side-chain to do freq. conscious dynamic processing to your heart's content.
Yes you're right. Because it's not called a 'de-esser' I hadn't wrapped my head round that yet!! The Dynamics plug is great I'm still getting to grips with it's possibilities! I'll try that GC!

Thanks
Old 11th January 2003
  #13
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groundcontrol's Avatar
 

It is a pretty extensive package!
Old 11th January 2003
  #14
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jazzius's Avatar
 

What about Waves plugs for d-essing? The renaissance d-esser is pretty good, but if you're a tweak freak, the Waves C1 in split-band mode is also very useful. I haven't come across any other good plug d-essers. Maybe d-essing the send to reverb harder than the main signal also helps.
Old 11th January 2003
  #15
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

the vipre with a slow rise time works really well... better than the SC comps IMO.... at least what i have tried it on. something too sibilant means bad mic choice on the front end.
Old 11th January 2003
  #16
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Curious G's Avatar
 

I like the waves on long format voice-over. On music projects I de-ess by hand with the volume graph. This gives me the most transparent results and only takes about 15 minutes per tune.
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