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Logic 8...5 years late? Modular Synthesizers
Old 13th September 2007
  #1
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Jazzpunk's Avatar
 

Logic 8...5 years late?

Is it just me or does Logic 8 feel like the update that should've come shortly after Apple bought Emagic 5 years ago?

While I am relieved to finally see Logic getting it's official Apple makeover, Logic 8 is really just an announcement that Apple is finally ready to get into the game.

It is most definitely not the 'We're here to change the game!' release that most were expecting.

Hopefully this release is just the tip of the iceberg.





***I should add that it's definitely better late than never!
Old 13th September 2007
  #2
Old 13th September 2007
  #3
Tab to Transient, Sample-Accurate Editing in Arrange, PLaylists.

i'm satisfied if only because now my Pro Tools friends can get off my back!
Old 13th September 2007
  #4
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Jazzpunk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricey View Post
Tab to Transient, Sample-Accurate Editing in Arrange, PLaylists.

i'm satisfied if only because now my Pro Tools friends can get off my back!
Anyone actually verify that Logic 8 has a tab to transients feature akin to what PT offers? Inital reports indicate that this is not the case but seems to be some confusion surrounding this issue.

I'm very happy about the other two features you mentioned. Brings Logic up to par with the other DAW's on the market.
Old 13th September 2007
  #5
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clonewar's Avatar
 

They supposedly had to rewrite the entire audio engine to allow sample accurate editing in the arrange window.. looks to me like this is the tip of the iceberg and a fresh start for Logic.

What I'm happiest about is what they didn't change! The rumors about no environment or screensets, etc, had me very worried.
Old 13th September 2007
  #6
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Yeah, I'm surprised Apple let it go that long.

The Final Cut, DVD Studio Pro stuff (which was also "aquired" software) is also very un-Apple like in design. Maybe that'll be next...
Old 13th September 2007
  #7
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I agree. When they bought Emagic they did their first price blow and selling all the instruments and plugs in one Logic package, now, 5 years later, they catch a bit up and put a start for a new interface lower the price again significantly and voila there we have 8! And U know, I think they might win a big part of the game with it anyway...

BTW, maybe I'll buy it too when Leopard comes out on a new Mac or so...

Roger
Old 14th September 2007
  #8
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Perhaps I'm a bit biased as I follow Mac programming more closely than most but 5 years ago OS X simply wasn't ready to make the transition. Panther (OS X 10.3) wasn't even released yet and it was the first OS X version with the new Core Audio API.

Emagic could be the best programmers in the world but they aren't going to be able to deliver the equivalent of Logic Pro 8 without new frameworks. We shouldn't forget that Logic was forged from a sequencer that later added audio. It stands to reason that audio editing would be it's weak spot. Pro Tools has always been an audio editor that eventually tacked on midi.

Programmatically you have to have API that can do wonderful things to enable wonderful features. Core Audio is the oldest of the Core Technologies and should be the most mature. I'd bet that we see stability improve and more significant feature upgrades as LP evolves.

I've seen Final Cut Pro make the same transition..there was a lull as Apple rebuilt the core around Quicktime plus the new Core frameworks. Now with every new version FCP gets better and better in large leaps.

I'd say Logic Pro almost missed the party but it came in time. Frankly 5 years ago the idea of a Native system even approaching Pro Tools was foolish. Next year you will have access to 16-Core Intel based systems with Terabytes of storage and outlandish memory bandwidth. I'd say Apple is right where they need to be.
Old 14th September 2007
  #9
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Good points about Logic, hmurchison.

Though Final Cut Pro may have received a new "core", it is still has an extremely steep learning curve. Apple needs to overhaul the GUI/workflow a bit as they are doing with Logic 8, IMO...
Old 14th September 2007
  #10
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headwerkn's Avatar
I think it is pretty safe to assume that Logic hasn't been the highest on Apple's priority list. Their software development resources are obviously quite finite if they have to pull devs off 10.5 - which I'd say is the most important single product Apple release this year, despite what the media say - to see the iPhone out the door. The importance of iLife can't be overstressed either... and notice we went from iLife '06 to iLife '08, not '07.

Also realise that the new iPods have a new OS which obviously needed serious development time too. I reckon they've been pulling 60+hr weeks at Apple for quite some time.

It makes sense that Final Cut Studio got attention ahead of Logic; there was a big gap in the non-linear video editing market between the cheapo toy stuff and the high end Avid systems, Apple saw the opportunity for professional but reasonably priced NLE that could run on any desktop or laptop. I think it is fair to say that FCS has been rather successful.

Logic was different. It was a player in an already crowded field; it had its distinguishing features and a fanbase, but there was no real hope of stealing away a huge chunk of the market. For Apple it was probably purchased simply to provide a full lineup of professional apps. I'm sure there were grandiose plans for the next version(s), but in the grand scheme of things Apple software teams had bigger fish to fry first.

The only other thought I can offer on the long delay is that GarageBand was the prototype or test bunny for their new ideas. They obviously share the same basic interface layout... along with Live, GarageBand popularised the single-window concept.
Old 14th September 2007
  #11
I agree. Apple should've dumped final cut like a hot potato, delayed the ipod, iphone ilife iphoto imuck, and put ALL of their resources into Logic. then we would've had the same software back then, that we do have now. I'm STILL waiting for atari style midi on the motherboard with matching rocksolid timing. who needs a bloody user experience if the timing of my tracks is behaving like an alcolholic in detox. whine whine LOL thumbsup
Old 14th September 2007
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by headwerkn View Post
I think it is pretty safe to assume that Logic hasn't been the highest on Apple's priority list. Their software development resources are obviously quite finite if they have to pull devs off 10.5 - which I'd say is the most important single product Apple release this year, despite what the media say - to see the iPhone out the door. The importance of iLife can't be overstressed either... and notice we went from iLife '06 to iLife '08, not '07.

Also realise that the new iPods have a new OS which obviously needed serious development time too. I reckon they've been pulling 60+hr weeks at Apple for quite some time.

It makes sense that Final Cut Studio got attention ahead of Logic; there was a big gap in the non-linear video editing market between the cheapo toy stuff and the high end Avid systems, Apple saw the opportunity for professional but reasonably priced NLE that could run on any desktop or laptop. I think it is fair to say that FCS has been rather successful.

Logic was different. It was a player in an already crowded field; it had its distinguishing features and a fanbase, but there was no real hope of stealing away a huge chunk of the market. For Apple it was probably purchased simply to provide a full lineup of professional apps. I'm sure there were grandiose plans for the next version(s), but in the grand scheme of things Apple software teams had bigger fish to fry first.

The only other thought I can offer on the long delay is that GarageBand was the prototype or test bunny for their new ideas. They obviously share the same basic interface layout... along with Live, GarageBand popularised the single-window concept.
I think they underestimated the "WE WANT MIDI" crowd. Maybe they thought when developing Garageband, that we'd ALL be playing on USB guitars right now... heh
Old 14th September 2007
  #13
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headwerkn-

No doubt. Apple's team that develops OS X has to be beat. Not only did they announce the iPhone which is OS X based but they also had to make sure that the Apple TV was working right which is yet "another" build of OS X. It's clear Apple is going to have to increase headcount on this elite team.

Final Cut Studio is a knockout IMO. ProRes 422 came out of nowhere and Color being tossed in for free was beyond even my dreams. As 6strings says the UI is getting a bit old but Apple's evolving the guts nicely. I figure they'll unify the look next year when they announce "Phenomenon" the Shake replacement.

Back to audio. LP8 isn't quite as ambitious as I thought it would be but I'm not counting it out. If you look at an Apple program like Aperture for photogs you will see that Apple is not afraid to make significant updates. Aperture 1.5 was a solid leap forward from version 1.0. I expect that Logic Pro will advance quickly and by the time we get to 8.5 there will be a fair amount of new functionality. It may take moving to Leopard to get these features however since Leopard is 64-bit and delivers a new replacement for Quicktime API (QTkit)

I know Apple isn't satisfied with Soundtrack Pro or Garageband as their pre-eminent audio applications. Logic Pro is that application. I have to admire Apple. They are juggling two different audio teams (Cupertino and Germany) and trying to align everything under their audio frameworks. The more that is revealed the more it makes sense. Apple created their own Lossless codec because they knew the benefits they'd reap in other areas. Core Audio Format likely has some other things that will manifest in handy features in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple Developer Site
Support for many types of auxiliary data
In addition to audio data, CAF files can store text annotations, markers, channel layouts, and many other types of information that can help in the interpretation, analysis, or editing of the audio.

and

Support for data dependencies
Certain metadata in CAF files is linked to the audio data by an edit count value. You can use this value to determine when metadata has a dependency on the audio data and, furthermore, when the audio data has changed since the metadata was written.
Not a bad start for CAF. It's flexibility is already beginning to show. Garageband 08 uses AAC based CAF while Logic Pro uses Apple Lossless based CAF. I think Apple could use just about any audio codec if they wish.

For me it's time to roll up my sleeves and learn LP8 well. I guess it's a blessing that it's still close enough to LP7 so as to not alienate the large knowledge pool of users.

If History repeats ...Logic will be updated far more swiftly from now on.
Old 14th September 2007
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post
Back to audio. LP8 isn't quite as ambitious as I thought it would be but I'm not counting it out.
Pretty much sums up my sentiments exactly. In all honesty, one would have to say that the most ambitious thing about LP8 is the price!

At least they have finally thrown their hat in the ring.
Old 14th September 2007
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6strings View Post
Good points about Logic, hmurchison.

Though Final Cut Pro may have received a new "core", it is still has an extremely steep learning curve. Apple needs to overhaul the GUI/workflow a bit as they are doing with Logic 8, IMO...
What a difference a day makes.

Last week, everyone complained that Logic had yet to get the same "Applefication" as Final Cut Pro. Given Final Cut Pro's refinement, Logic seemed comparitively Jurassic.

Now, after Logic 8 is released, and the past couple of years of development have finally been revealed, the argument has reversed, and now Final Cut Pro is the one with cobwebs and dust bunnies.

Yayyyy!
Old 14th September 2007
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reptil View Post
I agree. Apple should've dumped final cut like a hot potato, delayed the ipod, iphone ilife iphoto imuck, and put ALL of their resources into Logic. then we would've had the same software back then, that we do have now. I'm STILL waiting for atari style midi on the motherboard with matching rocksolid timing. who needs a bloody user experience if the timing of my tracks is behaving like an alcolholic in detox. whine whine LOL thumbsup
Apple has already sold a million iphones. If Logic is as successful as could possibly be, do you really think it will sell a million in mater of months? In just over five years, they have sold 100 million iPods. What do you think the total world market for DAW software is?

Apple's priorities, not surprisingly, come down to $$. Economically, Logic is a pimple on iPhone's butt.
Old 14th September 2007
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiMattMatt View Post
Now, after Logic 8 is released, and the past couple of years of development have finally been revealed, the argument has reversed, and now Final Cut Pro is the one with cobwebs and dust bunnies.
Relax, bud. There was a valid observation made earlier that Logic did not resemble an Apple product in design, but one they aquired and were slow to revamp, Apple-style.

Apple has made great strides with performance and compatibility for the Final Cut apps, but the apps have yet to receive a major makeover as with the transformation we're now seeing with Logic. These apps are far FAR from the ease-of-use mantra that exists with all other Apple products. I'm simply saying I could definitely see them re-tooling Final Cut in similar way - streamlining the GUI and some of the work flow and set-up processes. I mean... have you tried learning FCP?!? I guarantee those who attempt to make the transition from iMovie to Final Cut do understand what I'm talking about...

I'll see your and raise you a
Old 14th September 2007
  #18
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The devs that develop OSX, Final Cut Pro and Logic are all different. Logic is still developed by the same guys from Emagic.

It took a long time because apparently, the whole thing had to be re-written. Not easy to do in the least, and not something that would have been able to be done right after Apple bought it.
Old 14th September 2007
  #19
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L8 probably came late because a lot of rewriting was needed, but maybe also because it took some time to figure out that all this rewriting was needed. People were also demanding that the existing version of Logic got sub-updates. Who knows, maybe it also took some time before the developers got a yes from the Apple leaders to start to write things from the ground up again?
Old 14th September 2007
  #20
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Logic Studio does seem like less of an upgrade than many were hoping for.

But from what I have been reading on here, So far its REALLY stable. most of the bugs have been fixed. and many of the features that people wanted, have been implemented.

I'm simply hoping that this release ushers in a new era for logic, the one everyone hoped for back when apple first bought Emagic.
I would be extatic to recieve regular updates to logic "like in the old days" (that I've heard so much about in the past 2 years)

so lets hope this is a time warp... and 5 years ago has just started yesterday.

I'll toast to regular updates!
Old 14th September 2007
  #21
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L8 is ambitious in it's obvious thoughtful approach. I'm very impressed and relieved because it made serious improvements while not ignoring it's user base's requests to proceed with caution. Apple just proved that it's listening. This sets a precedent that we should applaud. IMO they didn't need to be extreme in order to kill Pro Tools... unless Digidesign opens up their system, this is the beginning of it's decline as the leading DAW. All Logic users should let Apple know how pleased we are.

-SD
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