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$500 = total market domination. Right? Condenser Microphones
Old 13th September 2007
  #1
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

$500 = total market domination. Right?

Whatever your issues w/ Logic, the pricepoint now makes it irresistible and it seems like anyone who has a Mac and makes music will have a copy. I mean, it's just stupid not to buy it, even if only for curiosity.

Me, I'm a DP-user, but now I will get Logic and for $500, I will have access to Logic's compliment of softsynths and other special features. Hell, maybe I'll even fall in love with it and abandon DP.

The point is I'm going to buy it. And so are you. Or at least the person standing next to you in the Apple store.

Purely for cost-effectiveness, Logic seems destined for ubiquity. Kinda like that other music-based Apple hit, the iPod.

The only question seems to me: whether this ubiquity will lead to Logic becoming The Popular Standard by default.

Am I wrong about this?

- c
Old 13th September 2007
  #2
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The MPCist's Avatar
 

Yep, pricing = purely irresistible !

Especially for what we get for it. thumbsupthumbsup to apple for this!
Old 13th September 2007
  #3
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I'm not entirely sure why people keep mentioning this, or use the phrase 'PT killer'.

I'm not having a go at you, personally- I just don't understand why some can't embrace different technologies for their differences.

For myself, I don't want any one product to be the market dominator.
Dominaton leads directly to a dictatorial stance on the behalf of the manufacturer- I want there to be constant healthy competition, which leads to innovation, lower prices and an all round better deal for us users.

I'm glad Logic has streamlined a bit and added a few new features that the other products have had for a while- but I love Logic for being itself, even having the odd quirk.
Homogenisation isn't going to make me a better composer, musician or engineer.
Exploiting the uniqueness of the software can help this though.
Old 13th September 2007
  #4
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Domination or not.... but notice that it has its own forum.

When was the last time a software got a month-long forum?! Not even PT got that...

Oh yeah, it's gonna be fun the next few weeks!
Old 13th September 2007
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by octatonic View Post
I'm not entirely sure why people keep mentioning this, or use the phrase 'PT killer'.
I didn't use that phrase. I'm not sure this has anything to do with Pro Tools. From here on out, even people who have Pro Tools will also have Logic. Logic will now be the standard default program that everyone has and then people will augment it with other stuff, like Pro Tools. My main point is that the $500 pricepoint creates an interesting cultural seismic shift. I might be wrong about this, but I don't think I am.

From a socio-economic point of view, September 2007 is a major month in the history of the DAW.


Quote:
Originally Posted by octatonic View Post
I'm not having a go at you, personally- I just don't understand why some can't embrace different technologies for their differences.

For myself, I don't want any one product to be the market dominator.
Dominaton leads directly to a dictatorial stance on the behalf of the manufacturer- I want there to be constant healthy competition, which leads to innovation, lower prices and an all round better deal for us users.
Man, I agree with you TOTALLY. Market domination is SCARY and bad for the consumer. That's one of the reasons I started this thread. I feel like this was Apple's iPod maneuver. "Let's create a product that completely dominates the market and becomes a popular standard." It's what every corporation wants! They did it with the iPod. They're smart people. They're about to do it with iPhone (all they need to do is lower the price another $100 or so and nobody will own anything else. Tell me I'm wrong!)

You're right: Market domination decreases the incentive for corporate innovation. But there's another fact about market domination: at some point, the snowball creates an avalanche and there's nothing anyone can do to stop it. Digidesign have benefitted from this fact for years.

All that being said, Apple got my $500 today. When are they getting yours?...

- c
Old 13th September 2007
  #6
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octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
I didn't use that phrase. I'm not sure this has anything to do with Pro Tools.
I know... but the two are linked in a way as, in the US at least, PT is the market leader.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
All that being said, Apple got my $500 today. When are they getting yours?...

- c
Well, I bought the upgrade yesterday around midday.
Old 13th September 2007
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by octatonic View Post
Well, I bought the upgrade yesterday around midday.
My point exactly. Within 24 hours, they had your dough. Mine as well.

How long 'til they have everyone's dough?

- c
Old 13th September 2007
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
My point exactly. Within 24 hours, they had your dough. Mine as well.

How long 'til they have everyone's dough?

- c
I'm not a good example- I've been a Logic guy since notator, did testing, pimping, written reviews and articles and I always upgrade as soon as it is released.
Definitely a bleeding edge guy.

Will Logic's latest release convince PT HD guys to sell their rigs?
Unlikely.
Even running Logic with HD hardware (which I do) is a major change in workflow and Logic still isn't there yet- several functions are mmissing (group solo, beat detective) that make it much more difficult to mix records quickly.

I'm not arguing that this isn't a strong release- it is- and will solidify Logic's position in the semi-pro and project market.
The bigger studios will stick with HD.
I will still have to move between Logic TDM and Protools HD when mixing rock bands.
Old 13th September 2007
  #9
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by octatonic View Post
The bigger studios will stick with HD.
The bigger studios will stick with HD and buy Logic.

Everybody in the world will have a copy of Logic. That's my only point. Logic will now become like the iPod: it will be everywhere. Regardless of whatever else you have and use, you will have a copy of Logic.

I don't think this is a Pro Tools killer necessarily (although I wouldn't weep if that transpired), but it is certainly a must buy, Pro Tools augmenter. A professional studio without Logic... that would just be stupid.

Logic is now the Microsoft Word of audio.

- c
Old 13th September 2007
  #10
Gear Nut
 

I'm only speculating here but... Lowering the price AND removing the dongle makes me think they want to win over Windows users. Since it only has a serial for protection it will get pirated in matter of weeks and even if this is "wrong" to talk about alot of people are used to "free" software (and mp3s, movies etc) these days.

So basically I think Apple did this to sell more computers. They are indeed smart.
Old 13th September 2007
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akronut View Post
So basically I think Apple did this to sell more computers. They are indeed smart.
I don't know about Apple encouraging or welcoming piracy. I personally think dongles will one day be a sign-of-the-times of the early 21st century. Dongles are this year's legwarmers.

[Future 2015 idle dinner conversation: "Remember dongles?" "Dongles! Oh yeah! Man, I haven't thought about those things in a while. God, I used to hate those things. How 2007..."]

Personally, I think the low price discourages piracy, 'cause most people who want to make music can come up with $500 somehow.

I agree this will help sell more Apple computers.

Time to buy that MacBook or iMac for the dorm room. If they haven't already...

- c
Old 13th September 2007
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Everybody in the world will have a copy of Logic. That's my only point.

Logic is now the Microsoft Word of audio.
No way. You're overestimating it. There will be a lot of people (and I talk about people who make music now) who won't buy it. I admit the low price is a smart move by Apple, but not everyone will buy it. A lot of the people who are perfectly happy with Live, Pro Tools, Cubase or whatever will stay there.

But I'll get it of course... In fact I ordered it this morning. But I got them all heh
Old 13th September 2007
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
I don't think this is a Pro Tools killer necessarily (although I wouldn't weep if that transpired), but it is certainly a must buy, Pro Tools augmenter. A professional studio without Logic... that would just be stupid.

Logic is now the Microsoft Word of audio.

- c
I don't know what you are using as a frame of reference but I don't see it happening.
My own studio, I move between both, but aside from two other producers I've worked with who could move between Logic and PT, the bulk of the industry simply doesn't care about Logic.
People who track and mix rock bands do not need Logic's midi capabilities and they cannot live without Beat Detective, PT's intelligent grouping or PT's far superior editing capabilities.

$500 is still a fair whack of money as well.

This, I guess, was my original point- there are different apps with different strengths.

PT is great for traditional 'works like a non-linear tape recorder/word processor for audio' situation.
Logic is awesome for combined midi/audio productions, film scores and music that requies complex arrangements.
Live/Acid/Reason's strengths lie with doing exclusively electronic or loop based music.

Certainly this is flexible - plenty of people do rock arrangements in Logic- I do it myself, but for some things (multitrack drum edits) it is much faster in PT.
Even after this release, it still is.
Old 13th September 2007
  #14
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Garageband is already virtually free and that is enough for hobbyists and even throwing quick ideas down for pro's. I doubt the hobbyists will go for logic studio. MAYBE Logic express.
$500 is still a lot if you aren't going to earn anything from it, but I can see LOADS of studios having it alongside PT or Nuendo etc. Why not? For any mid range studio up, it's a days fees and many people will be turning up with logic 8 files I reckon
Old 13th September 2007
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiff View Post
No way. You're overestimating it. There will be a lot of people (and I talk about people who make music now) who won't buy it. I admit the low price is a smart move by Apple, but not everyone will buy it. A lot of the people who are perfectly happy with Live, Pro Tools, Cubase or whatever will stay there.

But I'll get it of course... In fact I ordered it this morning. But I got them all heh
Apple Needed this to keep a market segment that it would lse to Digi! The Guy who out grew Garageband was migrateing to PT LE and apple needed something that felt like a mac! The funny thing is tht really apple didn't lower the price of logic they just packaged it with a cool little interface from Apogee for the same price! But $1k might be too high!
Now lets say you sell the guy on logic studio my bet is this sells more cheap M-audio intefaces than Duets because of the price point and apple store sells M-Audio!

HD is the standerd for high level production SOME will spend $500 on logic but for most there is no need for a second DAW!

Also consider this why was logic realesed before AES? We know apple has sen 7.4 because logic will only wor on an HD system with 7.4 (logic tells us that)! SOOOOO
Is Apple afraid 7.4 will steal a bunch of their thunder? are there any weird Digi DAE driver on those logic disks?

So far it looks cool to those who have bought it but how many of those purchases so far are from people new to logic? Alos no one that we knoow of has really had the time to really get to know it yet could it be a Market Dominator maybe! But the one weak link here is that Apple needs Apogee for this to work, Digi just needs Digi and what if apogee at some point says they are moving more product for PTHD and symphony just ain't makeing enough, but hey the Apple store is moving tons of little M-Audio interfaces?
Old 13th September 2007
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddageek View Post
Also consider this why was logic realesed before AES? We know apple has sen 7.4 because logic will only wor on an HD system with 7.4 (logic tells us that)! SOOOOO
Is Apple afraid 7.4 will steal a bunch of their thunder? are there any weird Digi DAE driver on those logic disks?

So far it looks cool to those who have bought it but how many of those purchases so far are from people new to logic? Alos no one that we knoow of has really had the time to really get to know it yet could it be a Market Dominator maybe! But the one weak link here is that Apple needs Apogee for this to work, Digi just needs Digi and what if apogee at some point says they are moving more product for PTHD and symphony just ain't makeing enough, but hey the Apple store is moving tons of little M-Audio interfaces?
All excellent points/questions.
My take is not they are afraid of 7.4- they simply wanted to get the jump on digi.
Apple and Digi are begrudging partners on one level, but it is still a serious quest for market share.
Digi owns the US but has to share the rest of the world with Apple, particularly Europe.

I do wonder if there are legal (meaning patent) reasons for a lack of a beat detective type of editor. Who knows, maybe digi owns that technology and refuses to let anyone else have it- and so far no one has thought of a decent alternative.
Old 13th September 2007
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by octatonic View Post
All excellent points/questions.
My take is not they are afraid of 7.4- they simply wanted to get the jump on digi.
Apple and Digi are begrudging partners on one level, but it is still a serious quest for market share.
Digi owns the US but has to share the rest of the world with Apple, particularly Europe.

I do wonder if there are legal (meaning patent) reasons for a lack of a beat detective type of editor. Who knows, maybe digi owns that technology and refuses to let anyone else have it- and so far no one has thought of a decent alternative.
I don't think tey are afraid of Digi I just think that they know Digi is going to shw something AT AES that would Kill the buzz and hype so Jobs and Co. decided to realse it early and create a buzz befor the show! Apple as whole didn't need this now the whole Millionth iPhone, price drop new iPods has wall stret and people talking it's much lower key than FC2 or Apature it feels... like this was an after thought on Apples part!
Old 13th September 2007
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlmorley View Post
Garageband is already virtually free and that is enough for hobbyists and even throwing quick ideas down for pro's. I doubt the hobbyists will go for logic studio. MAYBE Logic express.
I know five guys (non-professionals, but serious musicians) who have already expressed that they have mastered GarageBand and want to move on to something with more muscle. They only thing that kept them from buying Logic Pro was the price.

Those guys are going to buy Logic Studio, I assure you. One of them already has.
Old 13th September 2007
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddageek View Post
But the one weak link here is that Apple needs Apogee for this to work...
No they don't, and that's one advantage they have over Digi. Logic will work with a lot of hardware (including Digi's), whereas Pro Tools is a closed system.

Neither Apple nor Apogee "need" each other. They have plenty of other options.
Old 13th September 2007
  #20
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TonyBelmont's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
The bigger studios will stick with HD and buy Logic.

Everybody in the world will have a copy of Logic. That's my only point. Logic will now become like the iPod: it will be everywhere. Regardless of whatever else you have and use, you will have a copy of Logic.

I don't think this is a Pro Tools killer necessarily (although I wouldn't weep if that transpired), but it is certainly a must buy, Pro Tools augmenter. A professional studio without Logic... that would just be stupid.

Logic is now the Microsoft Word of audio.

- c
The fact that every studio will have Logic could eventually push the need for PT to the side. It's a clever strategy.... Price it so it doesn't make sense not to have it. Suddenly, it's everywhere and people start using it because it is everywhere. On your laptop, on your desktop, in the big studio, etc. Take the project home and do edits on your laptop with the same session loading on every computer you own...
Old 13th September 2007
  #21
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ddageek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by scking View Post
No they don't, and that's one advantage they have over Digi. Logic will work with a lot of hardware (including Digi's), whereas Pro Tools is a closed system.

Neither Apple nor Apogee "need" each other. They have plenty of other options.
Not for low latency highend aplications wher Digi is dominant!
Old 13th September 2007
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddageek View Post
Not for low latency highend aplications wher Digi is dominant!
I think we should wait and see how Logic 8 performs with symphony..


BTW it works with any core audio app, its not as you stated earlier.
Old 13th September 2007
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont View Post
The fact that every studio will have Logic could eventually push the need for PT to the side. It's a clever strategy.... Price it so it doesn't make sense not to have it. Suddenly, it's everywhere and people start using it because it is everywhere. On your laptop, on your desktop, in the big studio, etc. Take the project home and do edits on your laptop with the same session loading on every computer you own...
Tony I would agree if logic had incorparted RTAS but I think the middle gound is where Logic needs to build its base from then the pros will have to buy logic because thats what projects will begin on at home! Also food for thought what if say Digi Simply Ups MPT too say 96 tracks and dops the 003r too $995?

Now if logic had RTAS and could be added to an LE RIG like MPT retain its track count and give you RTAS and AU plus node Yeah PT would be in trouble, but digi would still sell hardware!
Old 13th September 2007
  #24
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gizeh12's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by octatonic View Post
I'm not entirely sure why people keep mentioning this, or use the phrase 'PT killer'.

For myself, I don't want any one product to be the market dominator.
Dominaton leads directly to a dictatorial stance on the behalf of the manufacturer- I want there to be constant healthy competition, which leads to innovation, lower prices and an all round better deal for us users.
good thinking
Old 13th September 2007
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddageek View Post
Not for low latency highend aplications wher Digi is dominant!
Let's say a third-party vendor comes out with a new killer low-latency hardware in the next six months. Will Logic be able to use it? Probably. Will Digi? No.

Logic is not locked into Apogee, and that's the advantage they have over Digi.
Old 13th September 2007
  #26
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TonyBelmont's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddageek View Post
Tony I would agree if logic had incorparted RTAS but I think the middle gound is where Logic needs to build its base from then the pros will have to buy logic because thats what projects will begin on at home! Also food for thought what if say Digi Simply Ups MPT too say 96 tracks and dops the 003r too $995?

Now if logic had RTAS and could be added to an LE RIG like MPT retain its track count and give you RTAS and AU plus node Yeah PT would be in trouble, but digi would still sell hardware!
Why would Logic need RTAS?
Old 13th September 2007
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont View Post
Why would Logic need RTAS?
If running TDM hardware it would certainly come in handy- or moving to a unifed mixer- either would be fine.
Old 13th September 2007
  #28
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There was a guy from digi that posted in the apogee duet thread recently.heh
Old 13th September 2007
  #29
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont View Post
It's a clever strategy.... Price it so it doesn't make sense not to have it. Suddenly, it's everywhere and people start using it because it is everywhere. On your laptop, on your desktop, in the big studio, etc. Take the project home and do edits on your laptop with the same session loading on every computer you own...
This is really my only point: it is going to be everywhere. Everywhere.

This is where technology has been heading for a long time, and it happened in September 2007.

I mean, name me one person who can't open a .doc file on their computer? Logic is going to be like that. That's what I predict.

We all know one fact: Digi has to respond. Digi isn't stupid. So let's see what they throw down.

As long as there is competition, we will all win. This is a good time to be alive.

--- c
Old 13th September 2007
  #30
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Amending my previous statement

Well, this is a good time to be alive, except music is seen as cheap and inconsequential and nobody cares about it anymore. Certainly nobody wants to pay for it. Other than that, it's a good time to be alive...
heh

- c
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