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Logic 8: Quantizing Multitrack Drums DAW Software
Old 13th September 2007
  #1
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Rufuss Sewell's Avatar
Logic 8: Quantizing Multitrack Drums

I just want to start this thread to discuss the various ways of quantizing multi-tracked drums in Logic 8.

How will the various new features enhance this tedious operation... if at all.

So far I can't get the "snap to transient" thing to do anything useful. The time stretching tool also seems to be VERY slow. The Junction tool looked cool at first, but only seems to work on one track at a time.

It also seems like the group edit function isn't working at all.

I'll dig into it more myself tomorrow.
Old 13th September 2007
  #2
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whoaaaa! This sounds like one big bug consisting of more small bugs

I was hoping that editing / quantizing of multiple Audio Drum Tracks will be MUCH MUCH MUCH easier in new version.

Please, give us some good news.

There has to be the way how to use snap to transients or whatever and quantize multiple audio drum tracks!
Old 13th September 2007
  #3
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allbaldo's Avatar
 

This is big for me too. I hope it can work!
Old 13th September 2007
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allbaldo View Post
This is big for me too. I hope it can work!
Ditto... I was really looking forward to this function.
Old 13th September 2007
  #5
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Rufuss Sewell's Avatar
Looks like the time stretching tool only works from the right side of the region. Which is not ideal for editing drums since the transient is on the left side. Doh!
Old 13th September 2007
  #6
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gizeh12's Avatar
there is a key command for inversing the selected region, dont know what its called realy, but that would be an ok work around for it.
Old 14th September 2007
  #7
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Eeek... not for 10,000 drum slices! yuck!

I want to snap to the transient, slice, and stretch the cut either forward or backward and strech one region and compress the other so that the hit lands on the grid without a gap. Doesn't seem to hard to implement to me.

The fact that one side of the marquee tool can snap to a transient but the playhead (spl) can't is very strange. I still can't think of a good use for it. Can anyone else?
Old 14th September 2007
  #8
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Rufuss Sewell's Avatar
Just found the key command for snapping the start of the marquee selection to a transient. Now we're getting somewhere... but I'm still not sure where yet.
Old 14th September 2007
  #9
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jackal's Avatar
 

Is there a key "command for split at marquee points", similar to the existing "split at locators"? (It only operates on selected parts)
I don't have it yet, but I'm thinking the marquee in the time ruler may be a way to do it...
Let us know!
Old 14th September 2007
  #10
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jackal's Avatar
 

Also, while I remember, if you click on the 'marqueed' part of a region or regions with the pointer tool, they will split...
So in conjunction with the snap to transient marquee, this could be a viable, if RSI inducing, method of chopping drums.
Not so good if group editing is broken though! (Do you have 'Arrange Select (Edit)' activated in the group settings window?)
Old 14th September 2007
  #11
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Yes, I have region select checked in the groups page.

As for slicing drums... I'm going to give it a lot of time before I settle on the best method.
Old 14th September 2007
  #12
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Daedalus77's Avatar
I'm hoping, at least, that the new snap-to-transient feature—and all the other PT-esque stuff—in L8 forecast Apple's intention, as the program matures, to get users, at long last, features (a la Beat Detective) that allow for adequate editing of multitrack drums.

I've only had the program 12 hours and haven't messed with it much, but I sensed before I bought it that it wouldn't be there yet.

Which may mean, for me, for the time being, that I'm still recording drum basics in PT, doing some Beat Detective, and then heading over to L8 for the rest of the tracking and mixing.

I'm just hoping that the new tab feature suggests that Apple has heard our desire for this kind of functionality and is on the fast road to getting it part of the package.

Then again, I'm often stupid, naive, and clueless in my expectations of software manufacturers.
Old 14th September 2007
  #13
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musicjon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackal View Post
Is there a key "command for split at marquee points", similar to the existing "split at locators"? (It only operates on selected parts)
I don't have it yet, but I'm thinking the marquee in the time ruler may be a way to do it...
Let us know!
You can set that as a key command in Logic 7.

Edit: Wait I thought you meant split at SPL. My Bad.
Old 14th September 2007
  #14
Gear Nut
 

Ya, it would be rather strange given that snap to transient is based on the marquee tool if it didn't also select a range across grouped tracks which you could then click on to split; that's how it's working in LP7 ... however it should work by just jumping to the next transient, key command: split region (along with all grouped regions) at that point jump to next transient and so on ... it could even just employ the Song Position line i.e. key command: move song position line to next transient on selected track, then key command: split region (along with grouped regions) by song position. That it would not work this way defies logic ... oh well at least I'll still be able to chop manually - mighty mouse for horizontal scrolling is essential for this task, btw. Anyway what they really desparately need to add that would give people the functionality that they're looking for is quite simply a key command to lock anchor points at region start point, for multiple selected regions, from the arrange page (so you can then move the region start point left to fill gaps/crossfade into the end of the preceding region without having the anchor point move as well ... supplement this with a key command for tieing regions by timestretching and we'll be good to go. Giving people a timstretching tool is nice, but it's just going to lead to all sorts of abuse and issues, especially if there's no clear indication that something's been timestreched and not the original unmolested audio.

I'll probably be getting my copy by end of day today or tommorow, so I may have additional comments when I see how all this is really working in 8.
Old 9th October 2007
  #15
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Just wanted to chime in here and say that, so far, snap to transient has worked pretty consistently for me so far, as has group edit. I should qualify this by saying that I haven't put either feature through the ringer yet, as I'm currently mixing stuff and not really in an editing stage, but I double checked those features in L8 after seeing this thread and thought I should mention that I'm not finding the same thing here. However, I will say that Snap To Transient is not as effective as it should be, not find the second transient in flams for instance. Also, it's still lame that they haven't done a Beat Detective equivalent yet. Is it possible that both the user base and developers of Logic are so loop and midi-programming centric that they just assume that Beat Detective and Beat Mapping serve the same purpose? I can't think of a good reason why Logic still wouldn't have a Beat Detective equivalent.
Old 11th October 2007
  #16
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let's start with a better strip silence window.
Old 11th October 2007
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell View Post
Yes, I have region select checked in the groups page.

As for slicing drums... I'm going to give it a lot of time before I settle on the best method.
I think you have to start working with better drummers
Old 11th October 2007
  #18
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by quincyg View Post
let's start with a better strip silence window.
Why not skip all the minor improvements and implement this:

Elastic Time in Pro Tools 7.4
Old 11th October 2007
  #19
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Rufuss Sewell's Avatar
Musiclab... I suppose you stand around in the dairy isle telling people they should just milk their cow!!! This is 2007!!! People don't know how to play drums. They stopped teaching that in school in the 80's remember? That's what they pay me to do... make them sound like they can play.

AND........

That's why I'll be upgrading to Pro Tools 7.4!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That video was amazing!!! It's what I've been waiting for for a very long time. I wish it were Logic... but that's ok because I have Pro Tools too... and will gladly be tracking drums in 7.4 until Logic catches up. But as soon as the drums are tracked and edited, it's back into Logic for the rest of it.
Old 11th October 2007
  #20
Gear Nut
 

I haven't actually tried this yet but using Live 7 (or maybe live 6 either) in rewire slave mode with Logic looks to be a pretty seamless solution. http://www.ableton.com/live6-elastic-audio just import in your drum takes, already comped with quick swipe, from Logic into ableton, make your edits with it's elastic audio feature, monitor it through rewire busses in Logic and than rerecord the rewire busses as Audio. Anybody who's ever tried this see any issues?
Old 11th October 2007
  #21
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Rufuss Sewell's Avatar
I downloaded the live 6 demo. The sound quality was pretty bad for time stretching. I couldn't hang.
Old 11th October 2007
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell View Post
Musiclab... I suppose you stand around in the dairy isle telling people they should just milk their cow!!! This is 2007!!! People don't know how to play drums. They stopped teaching that in school in the 80's remember? That's what they pay me to do... make them sound like they can play.

AND........

That's why I'll be upgrading to Pro Tools 7.4!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That video was amazing!!! It's what I've been waiting for for a very long time. I wish it were Logic... but that's ok because I have Pro Tools too... and will gladly be tracking drums in 7.4 until Logic catches up. But as soon as the drums are tracked and edited, it's back into Logic for the rest of it.
No I guess I'm lucky, but I record drummers who can play. You're right tho they did stop teaching just about anything concerning music in the 80's
Old 11th October 2007
  #23
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Jazzpunk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell View Post
That's why I'll be upgrading to Pro Tools 7.4!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That video was amazing!!! It's what I've been waiting for for a very long time. I wish it were Logic... but that's ok because I have Pro Tools too... and will gladly be tracking drums in 7.4 until Logic catches up. But as soon as the drums are tracked and edited, it's back into Logic for the rest of it.
Let's face it, PT is kickin' Logic's ass in this area.

99% of Logic users had hoped for a major overhaul in the editing department and for whatever reason (oh yeah, Apple spent the last 3 years trying to figure out how to fit everything in Logic in to one screen ) it just didn't happen.

IMO, with the release of version 8, Apple simply reaffirmed that they are content with Logic being a supplemental program.

It will remain a two DAW world for a lot of us.
Old 11th October 2007
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell View Post
I downloaded the live 6 demo. The sound quality was pretty bad for time stretching. I couldn't hang.
I agree. Every year at NAMM when Ableton is showing the latest enhanced incarnation of Live I ask them, "Have you improved the algorhythms? " and they say, "No, there is nothing wrong with them."

There is.
Old 11th October 2007
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashermusic View Post
I agree. Every year at NAMM when Ableton is showing the latest enhanced incarnation of Live I ask them, "Have you improved the algorhythms? " and they say, "No, there is nothing wrong with them."

There is.
Ableton is going to have to up their game in response to PT 7.4. I'm not one to lavish praise on Digi but I have to say the demo of the new elastic audio features is quite impressive.
Old 11th October 2007
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
Why not skip all the minor improvements and implement this:

Elastic Time in Pro Tools 7.4
The multitrack drum part of that demo was great! I can't decide if I should be hopeful or frustrated about this in Logic....it seems like the pieces are there where Logic could implement this without TOO much headache relying on the 3rd party algorithms like Pitch & Time. They already do some very cool things having audio following tempo changes over mulitple tracks...is something like Pro Tools new multi track editing THAT much of a stretch? (pardon the unintentional pun...)
Old 11th October 2007
  #27
Gear Nut
 

I think that apple has spent a lot of time bringing Logic into the 21st century with Logic 8, things like porting the entire program over to Cocoa and adding sample editing in the arrange is a lot of work for such a deep and old program. To me I think that Logic 8 is really half finished and, I won't hold my breath, but I think that if apple really cares about audio and the emagic guys are working hard over in Germany than we will see a lot of incrememntal improvements like this added to Logic over the next year. As for quantizing audio for something like drum tracking, I dunno, maybe I'm naive but I'd rather make the drummer get it right the first time and comp parts if I really need to. I'm not into making anybody sound like anything, I'm into capturing humans performing, although I understand everybodies philosophy is different and hence the reason for this thread.
Old 11th October 2007
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell View Post
That's why I'll be upgrading to Pro Tools 7.4!!!!!!!!!!!!!
+1 here for PT 7.4 here. When they announced that the biggest improvement in 7.4 was elastic audio, I was like, "Great, instead of adding Plug-In Delay compensation to LE and lifting the dumb track limitations, they gave us something we already get by running Live in ReWire.", but the segment of that video that covers multi-track drums totally changed my tune - I'll be getting that upgrade. If it works as well as it appears to in that video, they may have totally upped the game - PT already has the best tool for quantizing and editing drum tracks (Beat Detective) and it looks like this might leave that method in the dust. No more chopping and fading at all? I'm in. It is a real shame that Logic Studio didn't have a Beat Detective equivalent, but there's a lot in the upgrade that I love so I'm willing to overlook it. At least snap to transient is a step in the right direction - let's hope enough users complain about the lack of a Beat Detective equivalent that it's added quick. After all, wasn't Plug-In Delay compensation added just after Logic 7 was first released (I could be wrong on that)?
Old 11th October 2007
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzpunk View Post
IMO, with the release of version 8, Apple simply reaffirmed that they are content with Logic being a supplemental program.
As a user of PT, DP and Logic, the most depressing thing as that the most complete competative alternative to Pro Tools is turning out to be Sonar 7 (who would have thought Cakewalk would jump so far out in front of the pack). If they made a stable Mac version I'd be first in line. It would be nice if they bought MOTU and and converted DP into Sonar for Mac...
Old 11th October 2007
  #30
JPZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell View Post
I downloaded the live 6 demo. The sound quality was pretty bad for time stretching. I couldn't hang.
You have several different options for Live, you have to find the best one for the situation you're in. I think it works fine.
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