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Logic 8: Quantizing Multitrack Drums DAW Software
Old 11th October 2007
  #31
JPZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell View Post
Musiclab... I suppose you stand around in the dairy isle telling people they should just milk their cow!!! This is 2007!!! People don't know how to play drums. They stopped teaching that in school in the 80's remember? That's what they pay me to do... make them sound like they can play.

AND........

That's why I'll be upgrading to Pro Tools 7.4!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That video was amazing!!! It's what I've been waiting for for a very long time. I wish it were Logic... but that's ok because I have Pro Tools too... and will gladly be tracking drums in 7.4 until Logic catches up. But as soon as the drums are tracked and edited, it's back into Logic for the rest of it.
You know, my feeling is that world was quite happily (or unhappily as the case may be) spinning around long before PT 7.4 arrived. Great recordings were made, people made money in the business, drummers drummed, pipers piped, singers sang and, oh well you get the point. I personally long for the old days, you know play your **** right and be done with it.
Old 12th October 2007
  #32
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Rufuss Sewell's Avatar
I know, I'm just sick of telling people about how sometimes I need to match a drumkit to a loop or sequence... or how metal drummers WANT their song to sound artificially tight. It's almost another form of electronic music these days. Many styles of music going back 30 years rely on computer accuracy for the drum beat. I'm REALLY sick of people saying these tools aren't necessary if you "choose" to work with great musicians. Sometimes you don't want the groove of a great musician... you want the perfection of computer music. In fact I'd say in most pop music it's preferred! Up till now Logic has made it very difficult to apply a computer feel to a real drum performance. And even Beat Detective is pretty limited. But it looks like PT 7.4 nailed it so I'm happy!
Old 12th October 2007
  #33
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell View Post
I know, I'm just sick of telling people about how sometimes I need to match a drumkit to a loop or sequence... or how metal drummers WANT their song to sound artificially tight. It's almost another form of electronic music these days. Many styles of music going back 30 years rely on computer accuracy for the drum beat. I'm REALLY sick of people saying these tools aren't necessary if you "choose" to work with great musicians. Sometimes you don't want the groove of a great musician... you want the perfection of computer music. In fact I'd say in most pop music it's preferred! Up till now Logic has made it very difficult to apply a computer feel to a real drum performance. And even Beat Detective is pretty limited. But it looks like PT 7.4 nailed it so I'm happy!
Fair enough. Personally I agree with you, everybody has their own philosophy on this and I am REALLY sick of people trying to fake "natural" playing by ordering wave forms around a grid. Sounds like your approaching this from a more creative standpoint though, which honestly is the same reason I'm excited about the future of "Elastic Audio".

Old 12th October 2007
  #34
JPZ
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell View Post
I know, I'm just sick of telling people about how sometimes I need to match a drumkit to a loop or sequence... or how metal drummers WANT their song to sound artificially tight. It's almost another form of electronic music these days. Many styles of music going back 30 years rely on computer accuracy for the drum beat. I'm REALLY sick of people saying these tools aren't necessary if you "choose" to work with great musicians. Sometimes you don't want the groove of a great musician... you want the perfection of computer music. In fact I'd say in most pop music it's preferred! Up till now Logic has made it very difficult to apply a computer feel to a real drum performance. And even Beat Detective is pretty limited. But it looks like PT 7.4 nailed it so I'm happy!
Come on man, my point was that the tools today are pretty friggin good to accomplish this stuff and I've done plenty of records where every drum hit is Beat Detectived. I don't find BD limiting. I find the fact that players today expect it even without having to play to loops appalling. Talk about keeping the bar for musical proficiency as low as possible. I've worked with some of the biggest artists on the planet in the last few years and more often than not I'm left scratching my head saying "how did that happen"? Well, actually I know how that happened.
Old 12th October 2007
  #35
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Rufuss Sewell's Avatar
Haha, well yeah. Talent and success definitely aren't synonyms.
Old 12th October 2007
  #36
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Sure - some music sound over-quantized, but not implementing elastic time in Logic won't solve that, because the people who want audio quantizing tools will find them in other DAWs anyway. They're there in Logic too, just with an extremely time consuming UI.

Beat manipulation and elastic audio isn't only about quantizing. Some times I want to move a part of a drum track over to another song, or another part of the same song - and find that the timing/degree of shuffle is different. Or a part may have a great feel to it - but some beats or phrases needs to be edited, because the musicians aren't in the studio anymore. Also, many Logic users don't have the needed fear to record drums, so they record drums in another studio, and get some surprises when they are listening closed to the edited drums afterwards. Too late or too expensive to re-record the songs.

I've been working with some incredible drummers, and it's not the guys with the best timing who are least interested in editing drums. Drummers can be more picky than other musicians, and to be able to edit their recordings in a decent way can save a lot of time and money. It's going to be done anyway (in a lot of productions), so why implement drum editing in a way that only means that the producers/engineers will spend 10 hours in front of the computer instead of one? All people who spend time with recording live music will sooner or later get requests for editing audio the way PT 7.4 is doing it, and not implementing a good solution will only mean that more people will look for other solutions than Logic.
Old 12th October 2007
  #37
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nikki-k's Avatar
 

Ahhh- I know what types of metal are being pointed at with the whole "quantize it to be 'computer tight' " thing. But, IMO- and maybe I am wrong- the drummers who brought htis type of desire into fruition are actually capable of playing without someone "fixing it" for them. Matthew McDonough, Vinnie Paul (Abbott), and Fredrik Thordendal would be three that immediately come to mind. Vinnie being less associated with "Math Metal" maybe? However, if someone proved to me that those three actually relied on the engineer(s) to "fix" their playing, I would be crushed.

Sorry to sidebar liek this, but it is kind of disheartening in one way. Sure, you get someone doing a Reznor-inspired type of quantizing desire going, a live drummer wil be hard to find (maybe). Danny Carey got caught in the middle of the whole "He was quantized..." thing, right? So, humans can get very close...if they have the talent..and time/money to get that precious take. Studio "magic" is such a controversial thing. Who can say what is too much edit and not enough actual artist/performance? Even prog rock greats of yesteryear would splice like mad to get a single song the way they wanted. Even Queen would infamously play tape for the center vocal escapades of Bohemian Rhapsody when done live! However, when it comes down to it, most fo us would agree that the actual musicians COULD play it. Dream Theater, Rush, Porcupine Tree, etc.

Oh, pfft...I dont even know what my point is anymore...lol!!! All I know is if I was recoridng my music, and I had a drummer that could not play...actually, scratch that; if I had ANY musician in the room that could not play, they wouldn't be recording. Find another genre that fits yu better. But, that is just me, Ms Snob heh If I were recording a band, I would heavily encourage them to learn to play what they want to record before spending the cash to commit to *tape.* But, for those that cannot...lol...yeah, I guess PT 7.4 will be a godsend heh Good on ya!
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