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Logic 8 deal with outboard hardware delay compensation? Mixers (Analog)
Old 13th September 2007
  #1
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mixerguy's Avatar
Question Logic 8 deal with outboard hardware delay compensation?

does (and how does) Logic 8 deal with outboard hardware delay compensation?

the manual seeminly has no info, but it is mentioned in the Apple release info

Old 13th September 2007
  #2
Gear Nut
 

anybody?
Old 13th September 2007
  #3
Gear Nut
 

Hi,

From what I can gather from the manual, seems like there is no "ping" feature. So presumably it functions the same way as in version 7.x, the same with the PDC on external midi instruments - seems to be the same as it was in 7.x, I was hoping they'd fix that to give FULL pdc.....

But we got lots of other new stuff which is cool.

Cheers
Dave
Old 13th September 2007
  #4
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God damn it.
Old 13th September 2007
  #5
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i'm still hoping that somebody with a real copy can give it a run/test and report back.
Old 13th September 2007
  #6
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well ladies & gents, I am afraid nothing has changed in this area.

I am really glad to see this topic, as this "ping" (or else) feature was on the TOP of my request-list.

We should make some kind of open petition to apple to improve this. Geez! Cubase has it FOR YEARS

PS-to clarify I am not owner of a v.8 yet. But I guess that latency compensation of outboard audio hardware is such a MAJOR and IMPORTANT problem,
that Apple would take a note about it in the "What's new" or "Breaking news" or in the User Manual. I guess...
Old 13th September 2007
  #7
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Sure, I wouldn't mind a ping function either, but OTOH, I'm working for years now already with the Expert Sleepers Latency Fixer and have no issues at all with it. Does what it needs to do.

Logic always has compensated for sound card buffer latency (from the moment they implemented latency compensation). So if you change buffer, latency compensation of this buffer stays always correct, also for I/O plugin.

The only thing you need to compensate for yourself is convertor & soundcard DSP routing (for example RME Totalmix) latency.

Now, this is a FIXED value in samples for each type of convertor. For example, for an RME Fireface this is 220samples roundtrip (Totalmix->DA->AD->Totalmix).

As this is a value in samples, it's also independent of your project sample rate.

So it's as easy as adding a Latency Fixer with a fixed value together with every I/O plug. Latency Fixer remembers the last setting, so you don't even have to tweak it, just insert it.

The only minor about this way, is when you mix and match several convertors. For such setups you have to make a few presets in Latency Fixer and choose the correct one.

Well, otherwise, you'd have to press ping everytime
Old 13th September 2007
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
i'm still hoping that somebody with a real copy can give it a run/test and report back.
I hope i get my copy tomorrow and then i test everything with the I/O´s and very importent the Midi I/O. I have a Quad PPC with 4 Motus. Everyone ist talking about the Audio Delay Compensation but no one about the Midi and the externel Sync Compensation. That is for me very importent. I have a lot of Outboard and Midi Stuff in my System that i still can´t use with Logic only in Nuendo, because of the timing trouble, not only Audio - Midi also.

IfLogic does everything right like Nuendo, than I sell my Nuendo ;-.) i get 3 Logics for 1 Nuendo !!!

I´d seen in the Videos that Logic has right now a good Audio Editor like Nuendo or ProTools.


Greetings from Berlin.....
Old 13th September 2007
  #9
Gear Nut
 

Hi lematrix,

I have a similar setup to you, lots of midi synths etc and I like ot mix as I write....
I've had a good look at the Logic 8 manual and there is no change in the midi PDC either, it was probably my most wanted feature.

I'm a bit dissapointed.

But If they have re-written the audio engine, surely it would be possible to add this feature... 8.1 perhaps?

It's neverending.....

Lots of other great stuff in it though so I'll get it anyway.

Cheers
Dave
Old 13th September 2007
  #10
Gear Head
 

I have 3 different a/d - d/a converters: 1) Spider; 2) Lynx Aurora; 3) HEDD. I really don't want to think about this problem while I work. I want to set it and f*cking forget it.

Dear Apple, take another $100.00. Just please do it right... uh, I mean, if you want to go pro that is. Thanks.
Old 13th September 2007
  #11
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Dr. Delta --

The Latency fixer doesn't seem to work in that way. I know you helped me try to figure it out last year but I could never really find that "magic number" that I apparently just set and forget. SOmetimes it would appear that my number would get things perfectly in line, and then the same number a few hours later would sound phasy and obviously out. Not sure why that would be, but it didn't seem like a very good solution.

Maybe I'm missing something. I wish someone would come up with a more logic-centric solution to this, even if it isn't apple. I'd pay $100 for it easily, just like the previous poster said.

M
Old 13th September 2007
  #12
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lematrix View Post
I hope i get my copy tomorrow and then i test everything with the I/O´s and very importent the Midi I/O. I have a Quad PPC with 4 Motus. Everyone ist talking about the Audio Delay Compensation but no one about the Midi and the externel Sync Compensation. That is for me very importent. I have a lot of Outboard and Midi Stuff in my System that i still can´t use with Logic only in Nuendo, because of the timing trouble, not only Audio - Midi also.

IfLogic does everything right like Nuendo, than I sell my Nuendo ;-.) i get 3 Logics for 1 Nuendo !!!

I´d seen in the Videos that Logic has right now a good Audio Editor like Nuendo or ProTools.


Greetings from Berlin.....
would you report back once you finish your testing? i'd be interested to hear what you find.
Old 13th September 2007
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
Dr. Delta --

The Latency fixer doesn't seem to work in that way. I know you helped me try to figure it out last year but I could never really find that "magic number" that I apparently just set and forget. SOmetimes it would appear that my number would get things perfectly in line, and then the same number a few hours later would sound phasy and obviously out. Not sure why that would be, but it didn't seem like a very good solution.

Maybe I'm missing something. I wish someone would come up with a more logic-centric solution to this, even if it isn't apple. I'd pay $100 for it easily, just like the previous poster said.

M
I really wonder what's happening on your system... It does work fine here.

Now, I did notice that my Fireface800 driver can get messy when it's idle for rather a while, resulting in things running out of time. Relaunching the driver in Logic's Audio driver window does the trick then, everything is in time as it should.
Old 13th September 2007
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
Dr. Delta --

The Latency fixer doesn't seem to work in that way. I know you helped me try to figure it out last year but I could never really find that "magic number" that I apparently just set and forget. SOmetimes it would appear that my number would get things perfectly in line, and then the same number a few hours later would sound phasy and obviously out. Not sure why that would be, but it didn't seem like a very good solution.

Maybe I'm missing something. I wish someone would come up with a more logic-centric solution to this, even if it isn't apple. I'd pay $100 for it easily, just like the previous poster said.

M
are you using rewire or CPU heavy plugin before the Latency Fixer?

i posted a thread on how Rewire (Reason, Live) will cause Logic to shift samples, due to rounding of samples. depending on where your start point is, it'll create shift (phase if compared to original)... and it's different every time.
Old 13th September 2007
  #15
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oh, and when printing the outboard'd track back into Logic, you gotta take Latency Fixer off, otherwise PDC will create latency in recording.

also, the actual value of latency return is between samples. so one will never get perfect phase cancellation (even on FF800). it's pretty darn close tho, enough to not lose sleep over (no pun).
Old 13th September 2007
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
also, the actual value of latency return is between samples. so one will never get perfect phase cancellation (even on FF800). it's pretty darn close tho, enough to not lose sleep over (no pun).
Yup, btw this is also the case in PTHD. All AD/DA convertors I know of don't have a latency that's a whole number of samples, while for all DAWs a sample is their unity value.
Old 13th September 2007
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
oh, and when printing the outboard'd track back into Logic, you gotta take Latency Fixer off, otherwise PDC will create latency in recording.
Interesting. So what you're saying is that I would audition the track in my mix in real time with the latency fixer ON, and then when I want to record/print that track back to logic, i bypass the plug -- and then once its' recorded, i turn the plug back on?
Old 13th September 2007
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
Interesting. So what you're saying is that I would audition the track in my mix in real time with the latency fixer ON, and then when I want to record/print that track back to logic, i bypass the plug -- and then once its' recorded, i turn the plug back on?
I don't do it like that...

When you solo the track you want to bounce, all the other tracks 'play' as well, so the full latency compensation system is working. That means you have to keep the Latency Fixer ON during that bounce of the solo'ed track.

When you put the bounced track back in, no more I/O plug nor Latency Fixer are needed on that track of course, so you turn them OFF (or remove them).

Note, I use the output object bounce function for this, it IS a different (more complicated) story when you re-record it onto a new audio track
Old 13th September 2007
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
Interesting. So what you're saying is that I would audition the track in my mix in real time with the latency fixer ON, and then when I want to record/print that track back to logic, i bypass the plug -- and then once its' recorded, i turn the plug back on?
yes... but,

once it's recorded, why do you need the original track?

unless you're going for parallel processing; but remember, you're still gonna get a slight phase shift. so the only way to do so, is route the dry track externally and print it on a separate track.
Old 13th September 2007
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeltaM View Post
Yup, btw this is also the case in PTHD. All AD/DA convertors I know of don't have a latency that's a whole number of samples, while for all DAWs a sample is their unity value.
i wonder if Cubase's ping function compensates for the between-sample values.
Old 13th September 2007
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeltaM View Post
I don't do it like that...

When you solo the track you want to bounce, all the other tracks 'play' as well, so the full latency compensation system is working. That means you have to keep the Latency Fixer ON during that bounce of the solo'ed track.

When you put the bounced track back in, no more I/O plug nor Latency Fixer are needed on that track of course, so you turn them OFF (or remove them).

Note, I use the output object bounce function for this, it IS a different (more complicated) story when you re-record it onto a new audio track
this method works well also. in fact, if it's an offline-bounce, it's a bit quicker. but i never trusted Logic's offline-bounce, kinda like Freeze function..

quick question: what if you got processing on the 2bus? e.g., master comp... when you bounce the said-track on a diff output object, it won't go thru the master comp along with rest of inst.
Old 13th September 2007
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
i wonder if Cubase's ping function compensates for the between-sample values.
The only way they could do that is by upsampling the signal, delay it one (or more) samples at that higher sampling frequency rate and then downsample it again to the project's sample rate. This is pretty CPU intensive to do right, so I doubt they actually do it. But if they do, you'd notice on your CPU most likely.

FWIW, Eventide Precision Time Align and Precision Time Delay plugins for ProTools work like this. They're the only real solution to the intersample latency issue on outboard loops atm
Old 13th September 2007
  #23
Gear Head
 

As much as I appreciate this conversation, of how these tools work, I must say: What a pain in the ass!
Old 13th September 2007
  #24
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DrDeltaM's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
this method works well also. in fact, if it's an offline-bounce, it's a bit quicker. but i never trusted Logic's offline-bounce, kinda like Freeze function..
It's a realtime bounce as the outboard is realtime, so it's not really quicker then your method, but I find it handier nonetheless

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
quick question: what if you got processing on the 2bus? e.g., master comp... when you bounce the said-track on a diff output object, it won't go thru the master comp along with rest of inst.
I just bypass the 2bus processors if I do an individual track bounce for outboard printing. It's gonna hit the 2bus processing later anyway when you put the printed track back in the project.

Bypassed plugins in Logic don't introduce any latency.
Old 13th September 2007
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeangodard View Post
As much as I appreciate this conversation, of how these tools work, I must say: What a pain in the ass!
It's not that much different in other DAWs to print a track with outboard processing.

That said, I hardly print outboard these days, I usually have about 6 outboard loops running realtime, the rest is all plugins.
Old 13th September 2007
  #26
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Personally, I mix on a desk and now I see why
Old 13th September 2007
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeltaM View Post
It's a realtime bounce as the outboard is realtime, so it's not really quicker then your method, but I find it handier nonetheless
oh yeah, duh. gotta get some sleep...
Old 13th September 2007
  #28
F5D
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The logic pro 8 manual, page 851:

"Note: As Logic Pro has no direct control over the audio outputs of external devices, plug-in delay compensation can not work for MIDI tracks that trigger external sound modules. If you activate full plug-in delay compensation and insert latency-inducing plug-ins, external MIDI signals will be out of sync with the delayed audio streams. Logic Pro allows you to circumvent this issue with the External Instrument plug-in: Insert it (as you would insert a software instrument plug-in on instrument channels)
to route the audio outputs of your external MIDI devices to the inputs of your audio hardware—and monitor them through Logic Pro. This enables you to compensate for the delays of any audio streams coming from MIDI devices during playback."

I'm not sure if this was already printed in logic pro 7 manual but if they have fixed the external instrument-plugin to support pdc, then it should work. In logic 7 it didn't work, at least for me.
Old 13th September 2007
  #29
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by F5D View Post
The logic pro 8 manual, page 851:

"Note: As Logic Pro has no direct control over the audio outputs of external devices, plug-in delay compensation can not work for MIDI tracks that trigger external sound modules. If you activate full plug-in delay compensation and insert latency-inducing plug-ins, external MIDI signals will be out of sync with the delayed audio streams. Logic Pro allows you to circumvent this issue with the External Instrument plug-in: Insert it (as you would insert a software instrument plug-in on instrument channels)
to route the audio outputs of your external MIDI devices to the inputs of your audio hardware—and monitor them through Logic Pro. This enables you to compensate for the delays of any audio streams coming from MIDI devices during playback."

I'm not sure if this was already printed in logic pro 7 manual but if they have fixed the external instrument-plugin to support pdc, then it should work. In logic 7 it didn't work, at least for me.

Thanks for posting that. I doubt the Apple manual writers could have been less vague about this operation... but hey, maybe someone will report a hands-on compensation experience that is so utterly positive and seamless that the above quote reflects a functional-elegance of great profundity.

My hand is on my hat. I'm ready to take it off and wave.
Old 13th September 2007
  #30
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lematrix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by F5D View Post
The logic pro 8 manual, page 851:


I'm not sure if this was already printed in logic pro 7 manual but if they have fixed the external instrument-plugin to support pdc, then it should work. In logic 7 it didn't work, at least for me.
It was the same in Logic 7. The problem is, when you put your externel Synth into a "External Instrument" Plug, then you have the Latency when you are pressing the key. I dont have that in Nuendo, how ever they do it.
Is it the reason why Nuendo cost at least 1000,-- more ?
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