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Logic 8 deal with outboard hardware delay compensation? Mixers (Analog)
Old 27th September 2007
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
say if you want to go parallel compre on just drums using API2500. and then print it back into DAW so you can use the API on something else, say BGVs. how would you go about doing this without much trouble with latency?

case in point.
Lets assume that the main out with the whole mix from the DAW is patched to input 1-2 on a sumbox/mixer, except the drumsub which is patched to 3-4. On 3-4 the API is inserted, at this point the output from the sumbox/mixer will play back everything in sync.

Now to record back input 3-4 to the DAW, assuming you have a separate bus out first, adress input 3-4 to the B-output. From here, record the B-out in the DAW to the inputs it is connected to (software monitoring off). Everything you will hear during this process will be from the main outs on the sum box. Now play back the newly recorded processed drum sub and mute the original.

Without a B-out one would have to solo the drum sub in the DAW while recording the main outs on the sumbox (software monitor off), again everything that is heard here is thru the monitor out from the from the sumbox.
Old 27th September 2007
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
Lets assume that the main out with the whole mix from the DAW is patched to input 1-2 on a sumbox/mixer, except the drumsub which is patched to 3-4. On 3-4 the API is inserted, at this point the output from the sumbox/mixer will play back everything in sync.

Now to record back input 3-4 to the DAW, assuming you have a separate bus out first, adress input 3-4 to the B-output. From here, record the B-out in the DAW to the inputs it is connected to (software monitoring off). Everything you will hear during this process will be from the main outs on the sum box. Now play back the newly recorded processed drum sub and mute the original.
depending on PDC setting in Logic, the drumsub return into DAW will NOT line-up with the original drums. hence Latency Fixer. moreover, it won't be perfect sync due to "rounding errors" you mentioned earlier (see how it applies now?) as there's a difference of fraction of sample.

hardware monitoring is near-0 latency, but not perfect 0. so there's still latency. also, when using hardware monitoring, the drumsub return does not pass thru ITB MixBus Compression, which many ppl use including me; hence it's still guess work to see if the Outboard effect is working or not... until after the printing, or otherwise to use software monitoring.

a perfectly implemented ADC will allow outboard return sync using software monitoring, so to solve a problem such as mixing into a MixBus Compre. the possible problematic scenarios can be numerous depending on the mixer.

your method is assuming that one invests in a sumbox/mixer, and uses the sumbox to monitor the sum of Main and Sub-Out. but when returned back into DAW and printed, the result does not come out the same as what you monitored earlier with the sumbox, thus negating having the sumbox in the first place. again, this issue does not require one to buy a sumbox; the minimal requirement is a multi-out converter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
Without a B-out one would have to solo the drum sub in the DAW while recording the main outs on the sumbox (software monitor off), again everything that is heard here is thru the monitor out from the from the sumbox.
not exactly sure what's the role or necessity of sumbox in this method.

---

PS: one doesn't mute the original drums when using parallel compression.
Old 27th September 2007
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
depending on PDC setting in Logic, the drumsub return into DAW will NOT line-up with the original drums. hence Latency Fixer. moreover, it won't be perfect sync due to "rounding errors" you mentioned earlier (see how it applies now?) as there's a difference of fraction of sample.
Check post #57 concerning recording delay in prefs.

Latency fixer is for live monitoring, not the case here.

Rounding errors will occur even in HD if the delay is inbetween sample values, the only way to fix it is by nudging after the the part has been recorded, no DAW will fix this. But atleast you wont hear it while monitoring if you do it in hardware

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
hardware monitoring is near-0 latency, but not perfect 0. so there's still latency.
Could you elaborate on this, latency alone is not the issue here, its having different latency values at the same time that make parts play back out of sync.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
also, when using hardware monitoring, the drumsub return does not pass thru ITB MixBus Compression, which many ppl use including me; hence it's still guess work to see if the Outboard effect is working or not... until after the printing, or otherwise to use software monitoring.
This is a obvious drawback but you would have to use a hardware mix compressor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
your method is assuming that one invests in a sumbox/mixer, and uses the sumbox to monitor the sum of Main and Sub-Out. but when returned back into DAW and printed, the result does not come out the same as what you monitored earlier with the sumbox, thus negating having the sumbox in the first place.
Why wouldnt it, check recording delay again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
again, this issue does not require one to buy a sumbox; the minimal requirement is a multi-out converter.
Yes it requires a sumbox or mixer since your monitors will be connected to it. I´m starting to get the feeling you are trolling now. heh




Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post

PS: one doesn't mute the original drums when using parallel compression.
I know I edited my post, first I went with 1-2 main 3-4 dry 5-6 processed and suggested recording back 3-4 and 5-6 together, but realized it would give more flexibility to be able to adjust the levels after the fact. The muting of the drums is what is left of the old post.



Anyway, this is getting tedious. One could do this by using the Latency fixer or by monitoring in hardware. My point in my first post was that by using hardware monitoring you will be certain that what you hear when listening to the inserts will play back in sync, no funny stuff or worries about whats going on in the box.

I notice that you keep on moving the target from the latency that is caused by a software insert to sample rounding and possible errors with the recording delay. Both sample rounding and problems with recording delay settings apply to both methods.

Its the latency caused by software inserts that is the issue here and it is possible to overcome this by using hardware monitoring.
Old 27th September 2007
  #64
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it's getting pretty tiresome over here as well.

the "targets" you mentioned all has to do with the variables and results that concern with this matter, and there's certain terminology/methodology that we're not seeing eye-to-eye here; IOW it's not just one simple thing. otherwise, we wouldn't be posting like this.

my main point here is that your OTB summing is not the solution to Logic's short-comings, in fact it's a little OT (esp when recording back into DAW).. and Latency Fixer is not the end-all medication either.

so right back at you regarding the trolling, but i'm sure we're both coming from good intentions. i'm glad you found a way that works for you, and i hope either Logic can implement something or others can adapt to this issue.

Old 27th September 2007
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
Fredrik, I know how to record back into the DAW -- but we're talking about doing it so that it will blend with the mix in the DAW, and not contain latency. What if I want to parallel compress a snare drum?
Matthew, you got Logic 8 yeah?

how's the hardware delay compared to L7? are you still using Latency Fixer?

haven't had time to upgrade (mixing a project on PT now), plus i'm still waiting on Logic 8.1...
Old 27th September 2007
  #66
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Have Logic 8 on my composition machine at home, but no outboard to try it with yet, not until our studio is done and the gear is set up.

I don't really know what Fredrik is talking about either (sorry Fredrik) but if there is truly a way to record the results of outboard back into your DAW and have logic automatically compensate for it, it certainly is news to me. As far as I know, there's going to be latency (on my old G5 system it was around 140 samples, that's no small change) ... and that latency will have to be shoved around using latency fixer, or worse, by hand.
Old 28th September 2007
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
Have Logic 8 on my composition machine at home, but no outboard to try it with yet, not until our studio is done and the gear is set up.

I don't really know what Fredrik is talking about either (sorry Fredrik) but if there is truly a way to record the results of outboard back into your DAW and have logic automatically compensate for it, it certainly is news to me. As far as I know, there's going to be latency (on my old G5 system it was around 140 samples, that's no small change) ... and that latency will have to be shoved around using latency fixer, or worse, by hand.
well, the funny thing is that at least in L7, when used with half PDC, tracks sent out and back in is indeed compensated.

the problem (like i mentioned before w/ Fredrik) is when auditioning, Latency Fixer is needed; but i was having a hard time finding the right amount of samples since i switched to Intel Mac. when i had a G5, the samples was always 220 (as suggested by Dr.DeltaM, since we both were running Logic and FF800).

so when tweaking an inst in solo, it's golden. when tweaking with other inst, not as easy... gotta tweak and print, listen, then start over if changes needed. felt like i had hardware Audio-Suite or something.

and yes, parallel comp is a bitch. the only parallel of anything i'm able to do at this point is ITB plugs.

another issue with compensation is when there's Rewired tracks, e.g. Reason. but things drift there not because of latency, but a PPQ mismatch between Reason and Logic.


hope you get your studio up and running soon!
Old 28th September 2007
  #68
Quote:
Originally Posted by HananR View Post
yeah, but what if you wanna write automation post the distressor?
EXACTLY !!!

The problem is that the sumbox forces you to have your outboard at the end of the chain. No automation or plug-ins can be used post outboard.

I'm now starting to conceive a new mixing set-up for when the new Lynx PCIe card comes out:


---- 12 mono tracks: Lynx AES output Channels 1-12 -> D/A -> Patchbay -> outboard -> A/D -> Lynx AES input Channels 1-12

---- The monitor outputs: Lynx AES output Channels 15-16 -> D/A -> PVC -> Monitors


Ok, so in this scenario the mix is happening ITB, but the 12 DAW stems are being sent to outboard like any regular plugin insert. If the outboard is needed to track instruments, you use the Lynx monitor mixer to send the DAW stems to the Lynx AES output Channels 15-16.

The only downside is that you are forced to use a plugin as your mix-bus compressor, unless you send the 2-track outputs from Lynx AES out Channels 13-14 -> D/A -> 2-bus Comp -> A/D -> Lynx AES in Channels 15-16. But perhaps it would be better to wait until mastering before doing this rather than at the mix stage.
Old 28th September 2007
  #69
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i could use the total mix software that comes with the fireface to accomplish this.
but anyway-my post was just a response to the other poster who mentioned going outboard and summing the results analog.
I wasnt trying to defend Logic lack of latency compensation for external inputs.
Old 28th September 2007
  #70
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I'm relatively new to Logic and parallel compression via outboard on a drum sub is exactly what I am hoping to do. The latency that it is introducing is making phase misery. Summing in the analog domain is out of my reach having gone into the red buying Logic in the first place and I am limited to 10 ins and outs anyhow. I will obviously need to research the "Latency Fixer" feature more as being able to use i/o plugin for for outboard mixing is one of the reasons I was attracted to Logic in the first place.
Old 2nd August 2008
  #71
Gear Addict
 

record delay parameter

hello,

does anyone know how to switch the "record delay" parameter in logic 8 [the one in preferences: audio] back and forth from samples to milliseconds? i do not see the info. anywhere in the manual.

thanks.


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