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Logic 8 deal with outboard hardware delay compensation? Mixers (Analog)
Old 14th September 2007
  #31
theother
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lematrix View Post
I hope i get my copy tomorrow and then i test everything with the I/O´s and very importent the Midi I/O. I have a Quad PPC with 4 Motus. Everyone ist talking about the Audio Delay Compensation but no one about the Midi and the externel Sync Compensation. That is for me very importent. I have a lot of Outboard and Midi Stuff in my System that i still can´t use with Logic only in Nuendo, because of the timing trouble, not only Audio - Midi also.

IfLogic does everything right like Nuendo, than I sell my Nuendo ;-.) i get 3 Logics for 1 Nuendo !!!

I´d seen in the Videos that Logic has right now a good Audio Editor like Nuendo or ProTools.


Greetings from Berlin.....
I don't want to diss Logic but...

It's a far cry from the features of Nuendo 4 or Cubase 4.
Yes, Nuendo is expensive, but do you need all the extra features over the less then half-priced Cubase? 99% of users don't.

If I'd been a Logic user all my life I wouldn't be happy learning a new DAW and stay with what I got.

But you own & know Nuendo/Cubase already so switching doesn't make much sense to me for a DAW with less features. Why would you do that?

Nuendo 4 will be very cool indeed. Only a couple of weeks from now!
Old 14th September 2007
  #32
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lematrix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by theother View Post
I don't want to diss Logic but...
Why would you do that?
Very easy why !
....because i dont want to work anymore with 2 or 3 Programs.
Here in Germany 99 Percent of the pros are working in Logic, Native or as a front end for PT. Its like PT is (or was ?) in Amerika.
This is the reason why i use the most time Logic, because of the costumers who are paying my bills (and i have a lot of Bills) are using Logic.

I use Nuendo when i mainly record an arrange Audio, like recording a Band, doing liverecording for a DVD, Mastering or cutting Audio, etc.

ProTools LE i only use for Vocaligning Vocals and CHoirs. Sometimes (1 time a year) i get a session or send a session in ProTools.

4 me it would be great to have only 1 Programm that does everything that i want.

I installed today Logic 8 and i must say its not (right now) the Killerapp for me, because it is so sloooow and many things are new in the workflow.

Greetings, Mathias
Old 14th September 2007
  #33
Gear Head
 

And here all this time I thought this thread was about delay compensation.
Old 14th September 2007
  #34
theother
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeangodard View Post
And here all this time I thought this thread was about delay compensation.
Nah... this was only to lure you in! heh

Now let me tell you how much better PCs are than Macs, or Burger King than McDonalds.
Old 14th September 2007
  #35
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lematrix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by theother View Post
Nah... this was only to lure you in! heh

Now let me tell you how much better PCs are than Macs, or Burger King than McDonalds.

Macs are the better Pc´s hahaha or Big Macs the better Whoppers ? sorry 4 that i wish everyone a nice Weekend and become a familieslut...
Old 20th September 2007
  #36
Gear Maniac
 
HockeyMike's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeltaM View Post
Now, I did notice that my Fireface800 driver can get messy when it's idle for rather a while, resulting in things running out of time. Relaunching the driver in Logic's Audio driver window does the trick then, everything is in time as it should.
I'm curious about this, since I'm running 2 FF800s. What exactly do you do to relaunch...select a different driver and then go back to the Fireface driver, or uncheck and re-check the "Enabled" box? (I'm still in L7)

And when you say out of time, is that "subtle phasey out of time" or "really obvious 1024ms out of time"?

Thanks,
Michael
Old 20th September 2007
  #37
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DrDeltaM's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyMike View Post
I'm curious about this, since I'm running 2 FF800s. What exactly do you do to relaunch...select a different driver and then go back to the Fireface driver, or uncheck and re-check the "Enabled" box? (I'm still in L7)

And when you say out of time, is that "subtle phasey out of time" or "really obvious 1024ms out of time"?

Thanks,
Michael
It's really obvious out of time then, no subtle phasing. Yes, I just uncheck and re-check the 'Enabled' box, after that everything works fine again and all sounds in time
Old 21st September 2007
  #38
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T_R_S's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by theother View Post

Now let me tell you how much better PCs are than Macs
Except if your a Logic user...
Old 21st September 2007
  #39
Quote:
Originally Posted by lematrix View Post
Everyone ist talking about the Audio Delay Compensation but no one about the Midi and the externel Sync Compensation. That is for me very importent. I have a lot of Outboard and Midi Stuff in my System that i still can´t use with Logic only in Nuendo, because of the timing trouble, not only Audio - Midi also.

IfLogic does everything right like Nuendo, than I sell my Nuendo ;-.)
I'm realy intrigued, (although currently pretty clueless) about Audio Delay Compensation.

What exactly does Nuendo do that Logic doesn't?

Why is MIDI more of a problem than Audio?
Old 25th September 2007
  #40
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intolerance's Avatar
 

For the record.

http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/Log...ser_Manual.pdf

Chapter 37.
Old 26th September 2007
  #41
Gear Maniac
 

I have not yet been able to tell what the simplest solution is for dealing with latency when using external hardware in Logic (i.e. outboard compressors during mixdown) Yes I read Chapter 37 and it makes it seem like no-one has ever even thought to try such a thing.
Old 26th September 2007
  #42
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The simplest and most foolprof way is to sum the outputs in the analog domain and do inserts between the DA and the sum box/mixer IMO.
Old 26th September 2007
  #43
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Dr.Wu's Avatar
 

thats exactly my setup.
i have all the outputs of my 2 firefaces hardwired into my outboard gear.
When i want to send something into the distressor i simply choose that output in Logic.
The outputsignals coming from the outboardgear are summed into a dangerous 2bus.

Old 26th September 2007
  #44
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Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Yes, but some of us don't have enough EQ's and Compressor's to mix in real time quite yet .. and thus need to record the results of certain tracks back into the DAW. That's where logic's features fall short for me.
Old 26th September 2007
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
The simplest and most foolprof way is to sum the outputs in the analog domain and do inserts between the DA and the sum box/mixer IMO.
no latency
no screen to look at
turn off your mouse for awhile
nothing but ears!!!!!!
Old 26th September 2007
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
Yes, but some of us don't have enough EQ's and Compressor's to mix in real time quite yet .. and thus need to record the results of certain tracks back into the DAW. That's where logic's features fall short for me.
It depends on the sum box or mixer, the speck xsum for example has a separate b-bus apart from the main out that could be re-routed back to a free input pair on the converter. Or one could just press solo while record the main outs.
Old 26th September 2007
  #47
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Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Fredrik, I know how to record back into the DAW -- but we're talking about doing it so that it will blend with the mix in the DAW, and not contain latency. What if I want to parallel compress a snare drum?
Old 26th September 2007
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
Fredrik, I know how to record back into the DAW -- but we're talking about doing it so that it will blend with the mix in the DAW, and not contain latency. What if I want to parallel compress a snare drum?
I´m sure you do Matthew, sorry, but my point was that everything will blend with out latency if the summing is done outside the computer. If one would need to free up the hardware for other use, that would be no problem since it could be recorded back.
Old 26th September 2007
  #49
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theblotted's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
that would be no problem since it could be recorded back.
yes there's a problem, and that's what Matthew's trying to address here.

latency.

with the other tracks. give it a try.
Old 26th September 2007
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
yes there's a problem, and that's what Matthew's trying to address here.

latency.

with the other tracks. give it a try.
Ok so you mean that if I direct, lets say 8 outputs from a DAW to a mixer they will not arrive at the same time.

I understand what you are saying but it´s only a problem if you would monitor the return in software, which is why I proposed using a mixer/sumbox.
Old 27th September 2007
  #51
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Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

No, you're still not getting why my Phoenix Nicerizer 16 summing box isn't the answer to all my problems, but I'm too tired tonight to explain, sadly. Maybe someone more articulate than me can explain it better by the time I wake up.
Old 27th September 2007
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Murray View Post
No, you're still not getting why my Phoenix Nicerizer 16 summing box isn't the answer to all my problems, but I'm too tired tonight to explain, sadly. Maybe someone more articulate than me can explain it better by the time I wake up.
Look, I dont know if it´s the answer to all your problems. But I would like to know if it´s something I´m missing here. I have never inserted anything directly to a converter but between a converter and mixer, so far there has never been an issue with latency in this scenario. If I wanted to record the insert I would route it to a bus.
Old 27th September 2007
  #53
Here for the gear
 
HananR's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Wu View Post
thats exactly my setup.
i have all the outputs of my 2 firefaces hardwired into my outboard gear.
When i want to send something into the distressor i simply choose that output in Logic.
The outputsignals coming from the outboardgear are summed into a dangerous 2bus.

yeah, but what if you wanna write automation post the distressor?
Old 27th September 2007
  #54
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theblotted's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
Ok so you mean that if I direct, lets say 8 outputs from a DAW to a mixer they will not arrive at the same time.
no, the one particular track you route out and then BACK TO DAW is late. compared to the other tracks that's not sent out to outboard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
I understand what you are saying but it´s only a problem if you would monitor the return in software, which is why I proposed using a mixer/sumbox.
you're half way there. regardless of monitoring the return or not, once you print the return, it's obvious that there's latency there. this latency is what we're trying to address and solve here.

sure, there's always going to be latency, it's just nature of physics for converter and audio systems going ADDA. it's more about how a DAW resolves this by using buffer, compensation, and other technicality i don't know about.
Old 27th September 2007
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
you're half way there. regardless of monitoring the return or not, once you print the return, it's obvious that there's latency there. this latency is what we're trying to address and solve here.
Are you describing the extra AD stage and its latency that the re-recorded track is seeing? If so, that is compensated for by logic.
Old 27th September 2007
  #56
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theblotted's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
Are you describing the extra AD stage and its latency that the re-recorded track is seeing? If so, that is compensated for by logic.
yup, tho extra AD and DA stage.

it's only compensated up to the buffer size. say if you run ADAT/AES/SPDIF into another converter for better ADDA, this may run the risk of longer latency, and hence the remainder is not compensated.

also, it's not compensated perfectly. it's off by a fraction of a sample.
Old 27th September 2007
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
yup, tho extra AD and DA stage.
Well there is no extra DA stage as everything is passing the DA, and thus will be equally late.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
it's only compensated up to the buffer size. say if you run ADAT/AES/SPDIF into another converter for better ADDA, this may run the risk of longer latency, and hence the remainder is not compensated.

This is something you do your first session and save as a default, Preferences > Audio > Recording delay, do a loopback recording with a rimshot then measure how many samples late the recorded rim is, then enter that value as a negative in this box after this do the loopback test again, now everything lines up on sample level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
also, it's not compensated perfectly. it's off by a fraction of a sample.
This is the same for every DAW including pro tools HD, there might be rounding errors off +-1 sample. This isn´t really what is being discussed here.
Old 27th September 2007
  #58
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theblotted's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
Well there is no extra DA stage as everything is passing the DA
still gotta go another DA stage at the end, so technically it's still "extra"; but semantics, i get your point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
This is something you do your first session and save as a default, Preferences > Audio > Recording delay, do a loopback recording with a rimshot then measure how many samples late the recorded rim is, then enter that value as a negative in this box after this do the loopback test again, now everything lines up on sample level.
assuming that the converter setup mentioned above is static, meaning it's what one uses all the time. if one uses multiple converters, gotta do multiple delay settings. also, when Rewire is implemented, loopback does not line back up. but this is a PPQ rounding error issue in Logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
This is the same for every DAW including pro tools HD, there might be rounding errors off +-1 sample. This isn´t really what is being discussed here.
on PTHD yes, PTLE/MP, no. fraction of sample is still valid.

more importantly tho, the recorded back track is lined up; however when auditioning, a plugin such as Latency Fixer is necessary.
Old 27th September 2007
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
however when auditioning, a plugin such as Latency Fixer is necessary.
Are you referring to auditioning a live insert between the DA & AD? Then I agree, but using a mixer or sumbox will adress this.
Old 27th September 2007
  #60
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theblotted's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
Are you referring to auditioning a live insert between the DA & AD? Then I agree, but using a mixer or sumbox will adress this.
not a live insert, but to audition before taking the time to print the effect.

it'd be unproductive to use a mixer/sumbox to audition, and then route it back into DAW to print (unless you have the entire mix going outboard).

say if you want to go parallel compre on just drums using API2500. and then print it back into DAW so you can use the API on something else, say BGVs. how would you go about doing this without much trouble with latency?

case in point.
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