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Logic 8 is out ... what now Digi ? Audio Interfaces
Old 13th September 2007
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAU View Post
you are forgetting the mac pro octacore......so you best add a few thousend more
You'd need the Mac for a PTHD system as well, guess that's why he left it out.
Old 14th September 2007
  #62
rtx
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Any potential apple acquisition, or almost any strategic move, you have to look at with this question in mind: will it sell more macs or ipods or (now) iphones?

I strongly doubt Apple would ever think about purchasing Digi. They are strong competitors for the low end and midrange of Digi's business - and creeping up the ladder, with new Final Cut Studio 2 and server, and now logic 8. And they have no use for Digi's custom hardware business, because remember, they want to sell more macs, not some overpriced custom hardware.

Oh, and people tend to overlook that Avid isn't doing great business-wise. They've been losing money for about the past year, the stock is very near a 52-week low, and even going back 7 years or so it hasn't been a hugely profitable business. I bet apple thinks they can run them into the ground, and they may well be able to.

I don't think a purchase of Apogee is in the cards, either. Apple doesn't do much M&A, and I can't think of the last hardware company they've purchased. Their latest acquisitions, such as the product that became Color in FCS2, have all been software-related. And what would be gained from an acquisition? Apogee already puts out products that are very similar to Apple in terms of design and vision (see Ensemble and now Duet), they're top-tier when it comes to sound-quality, and they've obviously proved very willing to partner with Apple and make mac-only products.

The only big benefit I see would be a much nicer looking website for apogee.

Logic 8 selling for $500 - brilliant. I bet they sell TONS of macs because of this.
Old 14th September 2007
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfreq33 View Post
That's true to a certain extent, but if I was in a Ferarri and Jeff Gordon was in a Hyundai I'm pretty sure he'd get smoked.
Until you hit turn 1! heh
Old 14th September 2007
  #64
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Originally Posted by krenski View Post
Until you hit turn 1! heh
Actually, if you had to turn right I'm pretty sure you'd smoke Jeff.
Old 14th September 2007
  #65
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i've heard that digi will probably come out with a stronger core and accel card. this would be the best route to me.. especially since i just picked up my hd system this spring...
Old 14th September 2007
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtx View Post
Any potential apple acquisition, or almost any strategic move, you have to look at with this question in mind: will it sell more macs or ipods or (now) iphones?

I strongly doubt Apple would ever think about purchasing Digi. They are strong competitors for the low end and midrange of Digi's business - and creeping up the ladder, with new Final Cut Studio 2 and server, and now logic 8. And they have no use for Digi's custom hardware business, because remember, they want to sell more macs, not some overpriced custom hardware.

Oh, and people tend to overlook that Avid isn't doing great business-wise. They've been losing money for about the past year, the stock is very near a 52-week low, and even going back 7 years or so it hasn't been a hugely profitable business. I bet apple thinks they can run them into the ground, and they may well be able to.

I don't think a purchase of Apogee is in the cards, either. Apple doesn't do much M&A, and I can't think of the last hardware company they've purchased. Their latest acquisitions, such as the product that became Color in FCS2, have all been software-related. And what would be gained from an acquisition? Apogee already puts out products that are very similar to Apple in terms of design and vision (see Ensemble and now Duet), they're top-tier when it comes to sound-quality, and they've obviously proved very willing to partner with Apple and make mac-only products.

The only big benefit I see would be a much nicer looking website for apogee.

Logic 8 selling for $500 - brilliant. I bet they sell TONS of macs because of this.
Well first when looking at the woes of Avid, we should keep in mind Digi is only 15% of Avid's revenues.

I'm an HD user and I couldn't be happier that Apple is reducing its price. It will force downward pressure on Digi's prices as well. The DAW industry has changed. And since Apple's primary business is computers, Digi is Lucky Logic 8 doesn't come bundled for free with every new mac ( That would say bye bye Digi LE sales and sell quite a few macs. Why buy a pc to start making music when your Imac comes ready to record out of the box? Why buy a Digi Mbox when you can already record with your mac and a cheap interface.)


Digi for the first time has to introduce something that is not terribly high priced but is also compatible with their existing systems. Anything that alienates existing HD owners will cause them to keep their existing systems (that work quite nicely).

Digi is in business to sell HD systems and hardware. The purpose of LE systems was to introduce future HD users to Digi and cripple them just enough to make them move up.

Digi needs a new set of cards that are priced cheaper than its old cards, but compatible with its old systems. Where users can pop in a new card and keep humping with alot of power at a decent price point..


Digi has to compete not only with software companies but also with computer sales. They have to make users with G5s buy cards instead of a new mac.

It has to be PCI and PCI-x compatible and priced pretty cheapily. Chances are they already have the card. Now they have to introduce it at a lower price point.

IF Digi had say a new DAEengine that had claims of better sound, a card that was $2500, but the speed/power of say 6 accel cards but in order to use it you'd need a core card upgrade (that also gave more power but cost a mere $800)
This would sell alot of HD cards to all of its existing users and it would insure the sale of more control surfaces and keep Protools used on most major records/major studio projects and maintain their brand recognition.


Good times are ahead for us if they do so. If they dont' we'll keep our existing systems and make records.
Old 14th September 2007
  #67
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I belived Digi came out with LE as a very stripped version of pro tools, just as someone said, to get people interested in their full version back in the day, however, it was very succesful. What has caused issues with their LE is the track restrictions, and a few other things that now is offered by the other top native systems, and side by side DIGI can't compare strickly looking at features offered. I think for awhile digi held back on the fact that their audio editing was superior, which I wholeheardetly agree. But now that logic and Digital performer has really stepped up their game, I think digi is also trying to take the LE market tons more seriously. Coming up with their own VI's, which Xpand is VERY good synth, is a start

But yup, they are going to have to do more to keep their higher end users of the LE systems. As far as the mbox goes, they probally don't have to worry about that, a couple hundred bucks for the interface and software, a cheap way to get into a DAW. But for the people who need more inputs and power, Logic is making them sweat, and no doubt they will feel an impact. They WILL have to make no track restrictions, I mean common, computers are so much more powerful, how can they limit the track count.

Will be interesting, though digi may not have an answer for a little while, whith the release of the new 003 series.

I love pro tools, I have used logic and DP, but its been awhile. . I would think of getting it, and probally will, however, I am not looking forward to the learning curve. I truly hope the audio editing is as good as PT.
Old 14th September 2007
  #68
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Should it not be a priority of any company to generate NEW customers and nurture them.

Is Digi seriously doing that?

Or are they just trying to KEEP the existing ones?

Apple have just blown the DAW market apart with this move - and I expect them to grab a whole bunch of new users...

I am honestly astonished at what has just occured, it is a bold, aggressive and smart play by Apple, it suggests confidence and surety that will pay off.

Digi have to be realistic now and observe what has just occured, they have to be generous and clever and find a strategy to ride this Apple DAW Tsunami, and tap into the new possibilities.

If they keep pulling the same 'tired' restrictive Pro Tools LE sh*t they are gonna slowly die - there will be no more new customers for them, the Buzz just got very loud around Apple and Apple is really defining the Zeitgeist at the moment, they are doing some historical Sh*t right now.

Digi have to be flexible, generous, realistic, forward thinking, innovative and deliver affordable quality.

Can they?...
Old 14th September 2007
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
Should it not be a priority of any company to generate NEW customers and nurture them.

Is Digi seriously doing that?

Or are they just trying to KEEP the existing ones?

Apple have just blown the DAW market apart with this move - and I expect them to grab a whole bunch of new users...

I am honestly astonished at what has just occured, it is a bold, aggressive and smart play by Apple, it suggests confidence and surety that will pay off.

Digi have to be realistic now and observe what has just occured, they have to be generous and clever and find a strategy to ride this Apple DAW Tsunami, and tap into the new possibilities.

If they keep pulling the same 'tired' restrictive Pro Tools LE sh*t they are gonna slowly die - there will be no more new customers for them, the Buzz just got very loud around Apple and Apple is really defining the Zeigeist at the moment, they are doing some historical Sh*t right now.

Digi have to be flexible, generous, realistic, forward thinking, innovative and deliver affordable quality.

Can they?...
Well, it is about maintaining existing users when you are the market leader. I think guys are desperate for a "digi killer" so they are seeing this as such when it's reallly not. What apple has is as DAMN good move it will steal alot of sales from Digi's LE but probably not HD. HD users will buy it for their laptops and use it in their big rooms for their sequencers. People new to DAWs will buy Macs just to see what all this hype is about, and even if it's the most bootlegged software EVER that will mean it caused alot of mac sales and further Logic's popularity.

I don't think this Kills Digi's core business, but It is a win win for Apple (For even when people support Digi's core business, THEY BUY MACs too).

Logic may come bundeled with Macs at some point. Apple doesn't care if they kill Digi. As long as the entire WORLD comes over to mac

It does put pressure on Digi. More people yelling Logic will mean less yelling protools. In terms of future HD sales, Name recognition matters and Future HD sales is Digi's primary business.

I wouldn't be shocked if Digi did a "protools free" with 24-48 tracks that ran protools 7.

It would have the entire world still yelling Protools

This is going to make DIGI make a decision. They are stuck in a position where they have to offer something BIG to existing HD customers for a reasonable price.

BUT they have to decide if they are in the business of selling HD rigs or LE solutions. IF they decide HD (and they really have to because of the Icon/Venue etc... being higher budget products), they have to give more away on the low end.

Protools FREE with 24-48 tracks AND support would kill Mboxes, 003's etc... somewhat, they'd have to make those interface only products and sell them cheapily.
Old 14th September 2007
  #70
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Well we will see what happens. I agree that if you are a current HD user, why would you sell your current system? And even, why would you sell it and upgrade if digi releases new hardware? The only way digi can do this is by force, i.e stop suporting the old HD hardware. It´s happend before.

On the other hand if you wanted to start fresh building a new daw, would you buy HD today, hmm I don´t know.
Old 14th September 2007
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
Well we will see what happens. I agree that if you are a current HD user, why would you sell your current system? And even, why would you sell it and upgrade if digi releases new hardware? The only way digi can do this is by force, i.e stop suporting the old HD hardware. It´s happend before.
Plenty of people are still working with those rigs.
Unless you *need* to be cutting edge there is no reason why you can't make records using MIX hardware until it dies (which is then easily replaced with gear form the 2nd hand market) or you do (which is trickier to resolve).

Quote:
On the other hand if you wanted to start fresh building a new daw, would you buy HD today, hmm I don´t know.
As a HD owner I would say that if you are tracking bands in a commercial setting thenit is a definite, no brainer, yes- if not then probably not.
Old 14th September 2007
  #72
Gear Head
 

It will be interesting to see how the relationship with Apogee and Apple develops.

It would seem fairly obvious to me that having developed as a niche high end company Apogee are now being offered the oppurtunity by Apple to reach a mass market or more likely are about to be bought by Apple.

For Digi the real worry must be that we will shortly be seeing the Apogee Duet and Logic bundled. Then its lights out for Mbox and LE. I love PT but this new version of Logic and the potential of better pro-sumer hardware is irresistable.

The only thing that PT (and indeed Avid) have in their favour is that their software and hardware is ubiquitous at the high end because they were for so long the only game in town but that's a generational thing and will be eroded.
Old 14th September 2007
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by octatonic View Post
Plenty of people are still working with those rigs.
Unless you *need* to be cutting edge there is no reason why you can't make records using MIX hardware until it dies (which is then easily replaced with gear form the 2nd hand market) or you do (which is trickier to resolve).
That was kind of my point, does digi make money from people that doesnt buy anything from them?

I like to see symphony performance with logic 8 if it performs as stated its a no brainer IMO.
Old 14th September 2007
  #74
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1.I'm sure this is echo'd elsewhere.I think DIGI must drop the TDM monster very soon and all that required digi hardware and give LE the big makeover if they even want to stay in the game.The market is native.It's all about new customers.Adding 50 more pluggins out of the box would be a start as well.

2.DIGI should admit to their failure and begin heavy drinking and talk about the good ol
days of os 9x and verson 4x/5/x/6x.

Funny.I use all their products but things have changed.Like skiing to snowboarding.Not so many young skiers on the mountain these days.

Logic 8 is in my cart.No more waiting.
Old 14th September 2007
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fast-ideas View Post
For Digi the real worry must be that we will shortly be seeing the Apogee Duet and Logic bundled. Then its lights out for Mbox and LE. I love PT but this new version of Logic and the potential of better pro-sumer hardware is irresistable.
Yes that's an interesting point and one to take very seriously. Logic 8 bundled with Apogee Duet, I mean it's so obvious it's scary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fast-ideas View Post
The only thing that PT (and indeed Avid) have in their favour is that their software and hardware is ubiquitous at the high end because they were for so long the only game in town but that's a generational thing and will be eroded.
Good point.

It IS a generational thing, I mean I am now meeting all kinds of kids talking about Garageband and diggin' it. It came bundled with their parents mac and they just got into it. If they want to get into it a bit more then they go out and buy an Apogee Duet and (bundled) Logic 8....great for entry level newbies. (I mean c'mon - 5 years ago that kind of quality would cost you massive $'s).
Old 14th September 2007
  #76
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So if Digi upped the ante with a protools Free that was 24-48 tracks

Who here would buy logic?
Old 14th September 2007
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
Yes that's an interesting point and one to take very seriously. Logic 8 bundled with Apogee Duet, I mean it's so obvious it's scary.



Good point.

It IS a generational thing, I mean I am now meeting all kinds of kids talking about Garageband and diggin' it. It came bundled with their parents mac and they just got into it. If they want to get into it a bit more then they go out and buy an Apogee Duet and (bundled) Logic 8....great for entry level newbies. (I mean c'mon 5 years ago that kind of quality would cost you massive $'s).
True. Kate Nash uses Garageband. Justice use Garageband. I'm sure there's many others. I think the thing is that with older people we're sort of looking over our shoulder at things like Garageband because we've moved beyond that point ourselves. But for kids it's like the digital Spanish guitar. It's the thing that's already there lying in a corner and is cheap to get going and learn on.

I also think people are not mentioning Mainstage which Apple have totally copped from Reason. I think that that turns a laptop (which you've got already) into a very usable live instrument and will again be used by younger kids.
Old 14th September 2007
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fast-ideas View Post
True. Kate Nash uses Garageband. Justice use Garageband. I'm sure there's many others. I think the thing is that with older people we're sort of looking over our shoulder at things like Garageband because we've moved beyond that point ourselves. But for kids it's like the digital Spanish guitar. It's the thing that's already there lying in a corner and is cheap to get going and learn on.

I also think people are not mentioning Mainstage which Apple have totally copped from Reason. I think that that turns a laptop (which you've got already) into a very usable live instrument and will again be used by younger kids.
Yeah it's funny - sometimes I teach youngsters. Being a Logic Pro 7 guy they were teaching me Garageband! - I'm like Uh oh! what's this, how does it work? its weird in a curiously engaging, addictive way...

Serious point though: Garageband is FUN and by far the quickest and best way to capture young restless minds is to engage them, and if it's fun to play - that's 90% of the battle. Apple are just the Nuts at this.
Old 14th September 2007
  #79
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Good points 'no-ssl', 'noiseflaw'.

Digi still has a chance to do something about Apple's move.
I hope they do so because i like their systems.

The irony is that this happened before in the video-editing
scene with FCP/Avid. Did they learn from all that? What did
they do? Didn't Avid just let things go and focus on more
PC and keep their higher-end systems as their core-business.
So, it may be a repeat and mentality for what is in the LE future?
Old 14th September 2007
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
Yeah it's funny - sometimes I teach youngsters. Being a Logic Pro 7 guy they were teaching me Garageband! - I'm like Uh oh! what's this, how does it work? its weird in a curiously engaging, addictive way...

Serious point though: Garageband is FUN and by far the quickest and best way to capture young restless minds is to engage them, and if it's fun to play - that's 90% of the battle. Apple are just the Nuts at this.
You're not wrong. My three year old daughter can launch Safari from the dock go to her favourites and get onto Nick Jr.com on her own. After that she'll launch iphoto and either click on her favourite pictures or launch a slide show.

She'll no doubt be teaching me soon.
Old 15th September 2007
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zakk View Post
I'm sending a clear message to Digidesign. Include ADC and unlimited track count in Pro Tools LE soon or I'm moving to Logic 8. Simple as that.
Don't forget to add multi-track beat detective and at least 24 i/o @96k!
Old 15th September 2007
  #82
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What will happen with DIGI? They'll continue to ride the coattails of their installed base of "pro studios" by offering expensive upgrades all the while hiding their heads in the sand repeating to themselves "Logic does not exist". Then in a couple more years when Logic is as uqibuitous in a recording studio as CD/DVDROM drives are in a computer, they will introduce a version of Protools|HD that runs all the old TDM plugins natively on an octo or 16-core mac/pc thinking that will do the trick. Really who knows and who cares.. Ultimately Protools will have to drop the decades old pricing attitude (they never will) or sell the business to a chinese company. As long as intel keeps coming up with more and faster cores to their processors and motherboards and Apple keeps slapping them into their computers, the relevance of TDM host cards will continue to decline if none other than the simple fact so many Logic/Protools hybrid people I know use Logic at least while traveling because they can use it portably on their macbook pro's now that the CPU's are so fast even in laptops to run lots of native plugins...

Seriously though, the $500 price drop says something about Apple's "long term plans" for the DAW marketplace, given its swallowing 3 years worth of R&D and paying Emapple programmers in germany producing the new version only to cut the price in half now. Given all the patent applications that Gerhard Lengeling applied for a few years ago with regard to touch-screen based keyboard and mixers and controllers, there's clearly much more hardware candy in the pipeline for Logic. Invigorated by the avalanche sales of ipods and iphones, Apple is a company that's not going away and therefore neither is Logic.

Final Cut Studio now OWNS Avid and in the next 12-18 months Logic will OWN Slotools.
Old 15th September 2007
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fast-ideas View Post
For Digi the real worry must be that we will shortly be seeing the Apogee Duet and Logic bundled. Then its lights out for Mbox and LE.
Those items list for $1000.00
Price dictates the low end market. Poeple bitch that the $300.00 is too much for an Mbox mini, people posting here want free (or next to it) software. Customer Service and Tech support cost money and if you have low priced software expect upgrades may come every 2 or 3 years and don't expect anyone answering your phone call when you have problems.
Old 15th September 2007
  #84
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Anyway my guess is that logic will take a big bite in the other daws market (PT included) from low-end to hi.

Let´s not forget that it´s possible to run logic with the internal soundcard even or a cheap m-audio interface together with logic express which is very close to pro. Or run it with a full blown 96 i/o symphony rig with 1.6 ms latency.
Old 15th September 2007
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
Those items list for $1000.00
Price dictates the low end market. Poeple bitch that the $300.00 is too much for an Mbox mini, people posting here want free (or next to it) software. Customer Service and Tech support cost money and if you have low priced software expect upgrades may come every 2 or 3 years and don't expect anyone answering your phone call when you have problems.
TRS I mentioned "free" thinking that if digi's goal is to lure new HD sales, then supporting a protools free will be a way to do it. Let's face it, those of us with HD systems areen't leaving them right away. Our systems work well. Digi only has to think of ways to not alienate us or lock us out of their new software with compatibility issues. If digi put the Chip equivalent of a mac pro on a card that was compatible with their old cards. Guys with G4s and 5s (there are alot of them) that use HD wouldn't bother buying computers, they would buy DIGI cards and keep recording

They may lose some LE sales but it wasn't their primary line of business. Still businesses are priced based on expected FUTURE revenues so digi has to protect its future even if it means supporting a "free or almost free software (for a few hundred)"

This would keep the Digi name big in the world of those who started recording yesterday and in Major studios as well. What people are missing as you pointed out is the "Apogee/logic protools killer" costs a Grand list price.

For that guys with mboxes will continue using Mboxes. It's one piece you plug and record with.

If Digi has the right answer come October, not only will Digi not be killed, they will grow.
Old 15th September 2007
  #86
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Don't forget Logic Express 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet View Post
This would keep the Digi name big in the world of those who started recording yesterday and in Major studios as well. What people are missing as you pointed out is the "Apogee/logic protools killer" costs a Grand list price.

For that guys with mboxes will continue using Mboxes. It's one piece you plug and record with.

If Digi has the right answer come October, not only will Digi not be killed, they will grow.
M-Audio Fast Track Pro and Logic Express 8 is arround 300,-(excl VAT) arround here and while no HD killer, at least WAY more flexible, capable, .. than using that same interface with M-powered or comparing it with an mbox.
Apogee is not the only way to go - RME, M-Audio and many others can be used as well... from Amateur to Pro systems (RME's MADI Sytems can be quite large)
Old 15th September 2007
  #87
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Yep and half that revenue goes to digis sister company M-audio!

As far as the others who point to Auvds post demise I can only say Your wrong think FILM! and NETWORK TV avid is alive and well yes FCP has cut their low and medium market share but at the highend equivlant to PTHD it is still king!
Old 15th September 2007
  #88
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Originally Posted by ddageek View Post
Yep and half that revenue goes to digis sister company M-audio!

As far as the others who point to Auvds post demise I can only say Your wrong think FILM! and NETWORK TV avid is alive and well yes FCP has cut their low and medium market share but at the highend equivlant to PTHD it is still king!

Would Avid really care if the revenue went to Digi or M-audio when they own both?
Old 15th September 2007
  #89
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Why does everyone think that HD is Digi's major market? Although I have no hard facts, I know at lest 30 people with an LE system. I only know of 3 people with an HD system, and they all have Major Commercial Studios.

With that ratio, most of the LE users I know own a 002R or a 003R. That is a lot of money for Digi. Plus at least half own the MTP. On top of that, some of them even bought an Mbox Mini to edit with on their laptop.

HUGE MONEY.

I think that they have to make Pro Tools Native with an advancement in their handling of Midi, lower buffer settings, and beat Logic 8's price point. No more, no less.

Thats just my opinion though.
Old 15th September 2007
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlheinz View Post
1.I'm sure this is echo'd elsewhere.I think DIGI must drop the TDM monster very soon and all that required digi hardware and give LE the big makeover if they even want to stay in the game.The market is native..
No, the pro audio market (meaning tracking bands and especially drumkits) is still TDM.
Native is significant and I can see it eventually going that way but not until latency is a low as TDM and as reliable as TDM.
I thinkn the 'sounds as good as TDM' part, which used to be a concern, has been met or even surpassed (Lynx, Mytec etc).
Unless I had a 2" machine or RADAR I still wouldn't want to track a band without the tdm rig. Native simply isn't there yet and believe me I have tried. No one enjoys being held to digi's model. I would much rather use Logic (native), but for reasons I have been stating constantly in other threads the last few days and hence will not repeat here, Logic hasn't caught up yet and PT LE isn't even playing the same sport, let alone being in the same ballpark.
It will change, I'm sure, but it isn't there yet.
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