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Logic 8 is out ... what now Digi ? Audio Interfaces
Old 13th September 2007
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfreq33 View Post
Absolutely. If you know what you're doing it's no problem to work around the lack of ADC.
True. But there are still plugs that do, like IR1, all the Tritone Plugs, Vintage Warmer, UAD etc. I'm just saying as someone who works in PTLE and DP 5, its nice to not think about it. I find myself not using plugs with latency in PT just to save time, which kind of ties the hands a little.
Old 13th September 2007
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUPADUPA View Post
I find the work flow on PT HD .. SLOWER that PTLE ... on a fast mac

That's why I use PTLE to mix , believe it or not ....

BTW ... I do rock ... so no HIGH track counts ...

**** loads of parallel AUX busses though ...

did you know you can have 128 AUX tracks in PT LE !
I mix OTB and really treat my PT like a tape machine and the best razorblde ever- mixing with LE would never cut it for me because of the outs, but no issue as I have my own mix room with Mix3.. I was very suprised how fiddly I found tracking with LE though
Old 13th September 2007
  #33
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yip I agree ... it's shameful that PTLE has no ADC ... just shameful ...
Old 13th September 2007
  #34
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Well, I'm thrilled and terrified at the same time, because I program nothing but logic plugins (well, Mac AU plugins, technically) and I'm still testing on Logic Express. My life will get interesting if people discover bugs in the new Logic's handling of my plugs (I won't say in my plugs: they're very well behaved and based on Apple's own template code, I instead get host problems and have to try and debug the host program without having it )

But even if I have to run about madly revising, this is very exciting. I've been bringing plugs to the AU format in spite of the userbase maybe not being so huge, because it's the format and platform I personally use. Now, that userbase might be expanding like crazy. VERY EXCITING and I promise I'll bust ass to keep up the pace
Old 13th September 2007
  #35
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What I want to know is ....

will I get HIGHER plugin counts on Logic 8 than PTLE ?

any of you guys that got L8 today have experience of this yet ?
Old 13th September 2007
  #36
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chrisj's Avatar
If you have ADC you can do this:

http://www.airwindows.com/f/SampleDelay.dmg

That is a little utility plugin, a sample delay, that does NEGATIVE delays if you want to nudge something forward, not just back.

It works by lying to the host and claiming it has latency, and then putting in the delay which might or might not be more than the latency it's claiming to have. If it's claiming to have latency but then sneakily not delaying at all, you get negative sample delay.

Next, an ADC plug that lets you sneak in small amounts of interpolated sample delay (so you can finetune the comb filtery effect) in-phase or inverted for a bass cancellation/comb effect

(that one's not out yet but it will be happening soon, for Mac AU and presumably Logic 8 :D again, I don't get support from Apple, I'm too underground, so I can't test against Logic 8- yet )

I also note that it is possible to get very high plugin counts in Logic with well designed plugins. I can run four to six plugs per channel on 24 to 32 tracks on a dual 2Ghz G5 with 512M of ram, at about 20% cpu load- though sometimes I'll get processing spikes that stop playback, probably because of the 512M of ram that's some pathetic ram for a native DAW, really.

If you're looking for high plugin counts I might be your pet vendor because of the number of plugs I've done which are insanely efficient- it comes from coding them directly in XCode and using game-programmer-like hacks to tune the plugins. For instance, I have some convolution EQ plugins which are scary efficient for what they do, and it's all because I don't update the synthesized impulse completely every sample. When you change settings, the new synthesized impulse is constructed one sample at a time, on the fly, instead of all at once. I always shoot for roughly 1/3 the CPU of DUY Tape as my target, or better
Old 13th September 2007
  #37
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I am installing Logic 8 right now, takes about an hour, it has 7 Install Disk and 1 Demo. Plan to check it out with Protools HD.
Old 13th September 2007
  #38
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Yeah you're right, primative ADC is not a huge problem but when the competition supplies that functionality plus unlimited track count (for no extra cost) for less, then logically people are going to shift.

Digidesign would have to be having a meeting right about now, discussing where they are positioned and heading in the NATIVE market in regards Logic 8 Pro coming out.

Forget HD, people always bring up HD. The fact is that LE is Digidesign's NATIVE product. In the past, I believe Digidesign wern't really serious about the native market, they just made a mock Pro Tools to try and bring people to their flagship product being HD. But this is out the window now. People in the native market don't want to and don't have to spend 20k to get results.

Therefore if Digidesign want to compete in the native market then they have to make LE a serious native player. There will always be a high studio market for HD because these people need guarenteed reliability. But native market users do not have same user requirements.
Old 13th September 2007
  #39
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Just want to point out that some of my "sources" have stated that apogee is coming out with something BIG as early as monday.....
Old 13th September 2007
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
digi must have at least speculated that logic 8 was going to raise the bar, do they have something hidden in the dark waiting?

lets say PT overhauls the way it deals with audio, includes ADC, has unlimited track count, drops the need for digi hardware and includes all the new AIR instruments.

suddenly it seems digi are playing catch up? logic 8 did all of these.....and for a fraction of the price.
Digi may be forced to do what you are describing( to some extent: maybe not unlimited track count just yet).

I am sure they want to satisfy/keep their current LE users, plus encourage new native DAW users to pick their " Now Feature Laden Native Product ", instead of the competition's(Logic 8 anyone?).
Old 13th September 2007
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zakk View Post
Yeah you're right, primative ADC is not a huge problem but when the competition supplies that functionality plus unlimited track count (for no extra cost) for less, then logically people are going to shift.

Digidesign would have to be having a meeting right about now, discussing where they are positioned and heading in the NATIVE market in regards Logic 8 Pro coming out.

Forget HD, people always bring up HD. The fact is that LE is Digidesign's NATIVE product. In the past, I believe Digidesign wern't really serious about the native market, they just made a mock Pro Tools to try and bring people to their flagship product being HD. But this is out the window now. People in the native market don't want to and don't have to spend 20k to get results.

Therefore if Digidesign want to compete in the native market then they have to make LE a serious native player. There will always be a high studio market for HD because these people need guarenteed reliability. But native market users do not have same user requirements.
Yeah, but LE isn't Digi's "real" product. HD is. yes, LE is Digi's native product, but so what? I'm not trying to be an ass, but to assume that LE should be Digi's priority is a little ridiculous. And if we're really honest, it's only been recently with Logic/Symphony that Digi HD has really had legitimate competition in the recording/audio production arena (low/no-latency tracking, etc....). Yeah, LE is a neutered product, but are you telling me that Logic Express had the same features as Logic Pro? And yes you're exactly right about the "home" (ie. LE user) having different requirements than the "pro" user. Personally, I think the difference in the product line reflects that. Personally, I think some of the issue people have with Digi is that you've got to buy it all at once. I mean, with Logic, you can buy the software, and use it for a while, then a month later, buy an interface, then buy x,y, or z. With Digi, you sort of have to buy it all at once. You can't just buy LE (or HD for that matter) - you have to buy the hardware with it. and personally, I think when you starting adding up the costs comparable setups (both LE and HD) aren't absurdly more expensive than a comparable Logic/Nuendo/Apogee...etc, setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfreq33 View Post
That's true to a certain extent, but if I was in a Ferarri and Jeff Gordon was in a Hyundai I'm pretty sure he'd get smoked.
Sure - but I bet he'll still take those corners better than you.

I didn't mean to imply that the equipment is irrelevant, because the gear does matter. Rather, my point is, that the guy behind the wheel is far more important. We've all seen crappy musicians play through great gear. Now a great musician through great gear is even better - but if the guy behind the wheel isn't any good, than the gear only can do so much. It's like hearing a 192k recording of a really crappy band - yeah, the hi-res audio sounds so clear - but in this case it just means that **** has never sounded better.
Old 13th September 2007
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosby View Post


Sure - but I bet he'll still take those corners better than you.

I didn't mean to imply that the equipment is irrelevant, because the gear does matter. Rather, my point is, that the guy behind the wheel is far more important. We've all seen crappy musicians play through great gear. Now a great musician through great gear is even better - but if the guy behind the wheel isn't any good, than the gear only can do so much. It's like hearing a 192k recording of a really crappy band - yeah, the hi-res audio sounds so clear - but in this case it just means that **** has never sounded better.
That's a good point, and I can get behind it. I've said the same thing myself many times.

As far as the Digi thing, I'd be surprised if they didn't have something in the works. Either the "HD Lite" thing that everyone seems to want so badly, or an insanely powerful "new HD" that smokes the new 8 core native systems. It's kind of like Apple delaying Leopard a bit until Vista comes out. Doesn't make much sense to show your hand until you see what the other guy's holding. Digi built it's market share with innovative products, and regardless of what you think about it's business practices, they wouldn't be the dominant "pro" DAW if their product didn't deliver. Even with the new Logic/Apogee systems there's still lot's of headaches to get everything integrated properly. The biggest argument I have to defend Digi's proprietary hardware requirements is that your hardware and software integrate flawlessly. Installation is a breeze, and "it just works".
Old 13th September 2007
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfreq33 View Post
That's a good point, and I can get behind it. I've said the same thing myself many times.

As far as the Digi thing, I'd be surprised if they didn't have something in the works. Either the "HD Lite" thing that everyone seems to want so badly, or an insanely powerful "new HD" that smokes the new 8 core native systems. .
Don't think so.

And even if they do can you even guess what Digi would ask you to pay for it...

It is not nearly so difficult right now with an 8 Core mac and an Apogee Symphony system to get a kick Ass low latency Pro Audio setup for a reasonable amount of money.

For Crying out loud $499 for Logic Studio 8! - That IS a revolution.
Old 13th September 2007
  #44
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Hi!
Such fun, eh? heh

IMO, this kills PT LE/MP. Try to get close, even with a used Mbox original, and you are still shelling out close to $2k. (Mbox + MPT + DVT2 +...a few things; even Mbox + DVT2 + ...somethings = ~$1.5k). LS + Duet = ~$1k.

As far as the "big studios." Well, yeah, entrenched is a good word. With ICON, heavily invested is an understatement. But, you have SOOO many project and home "studios" that now have a true replacement for that dream of HD. IMO, one of Logic's HUGE shortcomings was the whole object-oriented approach of the Environment. Great if you understand OOP, or have some background. But, for Johnny Simpleton, LE was easy: go to GC, grab Mbox(2) and maybe grab MPT and a few VI's, good to go. Sorry, I consider PT LE pretty simple to get going with, and comparitively, Logic was much steeper (unless the background existed, of course). This changes things.

IMO, the Logic software is not what kills PT, but rather the approach, including (obviously) the pricing, makes it difficult to ignore as a choice, where it could be more easily dismissed before. People go to Black Lion Audio n(and similar) just to have a piece of hardware that feels/sounds better to them, JUST so they can use software that is crippled enough to make the "HD Dream" a valid one...something to desire. Why?

Cubase is cool, they have brought it a long way. Nuendo is simply over-priced now because of this, despite the benefits. But, once again, markets: Nuendo and PT HD are more in that upper bracket, where there are FARRRRR less people spending $$$, albeit more when they do. Even so, some places that have PT HD are using Logic as the front end. So, once Johnny Simpleton decides they are better off with Logic Studio than LE, more "pro studios" might see $500 as being a worthy investment to be able to simply open Johnny Simpleton's songs up directly in Logic...OR in PT HD.

Thus, by "killing" PT LE/MP (or at least giving it a real run), at the price point, it can begin to coexist alongside PT HD. Where someone with PT HD might not see any reason to spend $1k on Logic before, $500 does not sound so bad now, and if more people end up grabbing Logic over LE, knowing they can simply go into an HD equipped room and still use Logic? Well, see where I am going?

It will only work if Logic Studio is solid tho. Sountrack Pro 2 has it's little issues, but I think if Apple has things olid with Leopard and with solidity in the Logic and FC Studio realms...well... heh

(BTW- I bought Logic Studio yesterday, and I am a very long time PT HD and LE user; I might be "stuck" with LE only soon, and Logic now seemed a good idea to at least check out, and the price is what made me decide that. If I am willing ot give it a shot, how many others will? How about those on the fence, or those who are tired of LE and the lmitations they face, or feel they face? Like I said, brilliant on Apple's part IMO!)
Old 13th September 2007
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikki-k View Post

IMO, this kills PT LE/MP. Try to get close, even with a used Mbox original, and you are still shelling out close to $2k. (Mbox + MPT + DVT2 +...a few things; even Mbox + DVT2 + ...somethings = ~$1.5k). LS + Duet = ~$1k.


(BTW- I bought Logic Studio yesterday, and I am a very long time PT HD and LE user; I might be "stuck" with LE only soon, and Logic now seemed a good idea to at least check out, and the price is what made me decide that. If I am willing ot give it a shot, how many others will? How about those on the fence, or those who are tired of LE and the lmitations they face, or feel they face? Like I said, brilliant on Apple's part IMO!)
Sign of the times, and Digi are watching.

They will have to act quickly. They are not desperate though. They know their LE users will shell out $$$ for an "HD Lite" version type or whatever they're actually cooking up, even if the competition remains considerably cheaper(see Logic/Apogee).

Computers are getting too fast for LE to be this crippled and for HD to continue to be the "demigod" of Pro Audio( in it's current form).

They can just up HD's power, like someone mentioned, and still make their HD profits, no doubt.
Old 13th September 2007
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosby View Post
I'm not trying to be an ass, but to assume that LE should be Digi's priority is a little ridiculous.
You're thinking like an engineer, not like a businessman. LE is much more important to Digi's bottom line than TDM is. If they lose a significant chunk of that market, their precarious financial position just got worse.
Old 13th September 2007
  #47
Old 13th September 2007
  #48
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I think that Apple should buy Avid and end this. Could be crazy, but just a thought. (And no, that would not turn Apple into a monopoly)
Old 13th September 2007
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibbon View Post
I think that Apple should buy Avid and end this. Could be crazy, but just a thought. (And no, that would not turn Apple into a monopoly)
Why buy them? Why not just watch them go out of business and take their customers?

Apple already has their audio application, and their partner Apogee has the hardware to run it on. Buying Digi would bring new software, new hardware, and new personnel into the fold that would have to be dealt with. Why go to all that trouble? The only time you buy a competitor is when they have something material (personnel, technology, etc) that you want. You don't buy someone for their customers, you find a way to convince customers to come to you (which is exactly what Apple are doing here).
Old 13th September 2007
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scking View Post
Why buy them? Why not just watch them go out of business and take their customers?

Apple already has their audio application, and their partner Apogee has the hardware to run it on. Buying Digi would bring new software, new hardware, and new personnel into the fold that would have to be dealt with. Why go to all that trouble? The only time you buy a competitor is when they have something material (personnel, technology, etc) that you want. You don't buy someone for their customers, you find a way to convince customers to come to you (which is exactly what Apple are doing here).
There's more than one reason to buy companies. Oracle for example has bought companies to simply remove the competition from the market. It's not terribly uncommon. Just because you buy something doesn't mean you keep around anything except the patents. Employees often get fired.

Point being to buy Digi to make people want/have to switch to Apple for a high end video and audio solution.
Old 13th September 2007
  #51
Gear Addict
 

A lil birdie told me PT HD is over. They're trying to get rid of every HD system now so they can move on to their "next generation". Basically, HD will be abolished shortly.
I heard this due to CPU processor catching up to HD, such as 8 cores and such.

However, they will continue to push the LE stuff, 003, Mbox, etc... for they're affordable on the low end.

I heard they have " a secret" for the follow up on HD that they will introduce.

The "birdie" got the info directly from Digi reps. So it doesn't sound like a rumor.
Old 13th September 2007
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibbon View Post
There's more than one reason to buy companies. Oracle for example has bought companies to simply remove the competition from the market. It's not terribly uncommon. Just because you buy something doesn't mean you keep around anything except the patents. Employees often get fired.

Point being to buy Digi to make people want/have to switch to Apple for a high end video and audio solution.
What is Avid's market cap?

Why would you spend that kind of money (or more) to buy them for their audio customers when you've already proven with FCP that you can take their customers without spending anywhere near that kind of dough?

Apple is partially to blame for Avid's financial woes already. They are just doing more of the same with the release of the Apogee hardware and the improved audio engine in Logic 8.
Old 13th September 2007
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnMix Studio View Post

I heard they have " a secret" for the follow up on HD that they will introduce.

The "birdie" got the info directly from Digi reps. So it doesn't sound like a rumor.
Does it have to do anything with what Apogee is supposedly unveiling on Monday?
Old 13th September 2007
  #54
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1-If Apple is going to buy any company, it should be Apogee. If they do that they should come out with an icon like console.

2-I highly doubt that Digi will kill their HD line. I can see Digi coming out with new cheaper cards and interfaces. Think about what they are using for their DSP. Motorola still? There have been many improvements available since they released HD. Think about 4 cell processors on a PCIe card. About a year ago at a demo IBM did to showcase the CPU, cell CPUs were put on a card for video rendering. So it's entirely possible to do. That IMO would totally smoke any native solution I think. I've spoken to developers about the cell cpu when they were first anounced and they all said the same thing. The cells would suck as a general purpose CPU, but would be mindblowing if used for dedicated DSP. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big native advocate but I don't think DSP is about to go away.

If anybody is interested here's a link to the IBM demo:

IBM shows new Cell processor
Old 13th September 2007
  #55
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nynofi View Post
Does it have to do anything with what Apogee is supposedly unveiling on Monday?
I doubt it. Don't think so. It wouldn't any sense for Digi to dead their hardware just to go with Appogee. I assume they will take it to next level. Maybe open up their platform to other hardwares might be an option, but then that'll will kill them since Logic is killing their software. Their hardware is what's keepinig them around, and of course ease of use.

One thing, no one, I mean no one, can deny Digi has the best editing. I will be getting Logic though. haha
Old 13th September 2007
  #56
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by autodidactic View Post
2-I highly doubt that Digi will kill their HD line. I can see Digi coming out with new cheaper cards and interfaces. Think about what they are using for their DSP. Motorola still? There have been many improvements available since they released HD. Think about 4 cell processors on a PCIe card. About a year ago at a demo IBM did to showcase the CPU, cell CPUs were put on a card for video rendering. So it's entirely possible to do. That IMO would totally smoke any native solution I think. I've spoken to developers about the cell cpu when they were first anounced and they all said the same thing. The cells would suck as a general purpose CPU, but would be mindblowing if used for dedicated DSP. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big native advocate but I don't think DSP is about to go away.

If anybody is interested here's a link to the IBM demo:

IBM shows new Cell processor
Doubt doesn't negate the fact THEY said they're gonna stop HD. At least HD as you know it now will be no more. They have another thing coming, but surely won't be HD. This is from horse mouth. Remember this post when it happen. THIS IS NOT A RUMOR.
Old 13th September 2007
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnMix Studio View Post
A lil birdie told me PT HD is over. They're trying to get rid of every HD system now so they can move on to their "next generation". Basically, HD will be abolished shortly.
I heard this due to CPU processor catching up to HD, such as 8 cores and such.

However, they will continue to push the LE stuff, 003, Mbox, etc... for they're affordable on the low end.

I heard they have " a secret" for the follow up on HD that they will introduce.

The "birdie" got the info directly from Digi reps. So it doesn't sound like a rumor.
How do you know when a rep is lying?




His lips are moving!

Untill it is officaly documented its a rumor! Heck what do you think rumors are!
Old 13th September 2007
  #58
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Logic 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
lets say PT overhauls the way it deals with audio, includes ADC, has unlimited track count, drops the need for digi hardware and includes all the new AIR instruments. suddenly it seems digi are playing catch up? logic 8 did all of these.....and for a fraction of the price.

where do digi go from here?
What is ADC ?
Old 13th September 2007
  #59
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddageek View Post
How do you know when a rep is lying?




His lips are moving!

Untill it is officaly documented its a rumor! Heck what do you think rumors are!
Right, I don't know if the rep is lying, but pointless for them to lie about it. Reason what it was even told to the "birdie" is because they been pressuring all their authorized dealers and salesperson to push HD harder in sales so that they finish with it. You can go ask your local HD dealers that.
That's how the birdie came to know and understand why they making it urgent to hurry up and sell all HD system. They're not even shipping many new ones to stores.
Go ask your local HD sales person how much new HD system are they bringing in. You'll see how it matches up with I said here.

However, it's nothing anyone have to buy from, you sure don't have to. I'm not trying to sell it either, just informing. Just remember this post is all I'm saying. You have no idea, you would even know if I was really form Digi while you're assuming. All good though.
Of course, believe when it's officially documented.

Enjoy Logic my friends.
Old 13th September 2007
  #60
LAU
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUPADUPA View Post
Apogee AD-16x $ 3250

Apogee DA-16x $ 3250

Apogee Symphony $ 1075

Apple Logic Pro 8 $ 499

Total $ 8074

not exactly a decision to be taken lightly ...

you are forgetting the mac pro octacore......so you best add a few thousend more
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