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LOGIC 8 HERE IT IS!!!!
Old 16th September 2007
  #541
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Tony Shepperd's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by flexoffset View Post
Just for grins, I though't I'd finally take the effort to max out Logic on my computer.

42 Space Designers :D
3 Reaktor 5 Massives
1 Reaktor 5 Kaleidon
some audio loops,
ES2

Activity monitor was showing 200% CPU usage.
Strangely, core 6 & 7 never lit up on the Logic "System Performance" window. Core 8 was nearly max'd out.
Not a single glitch the whole time --- smooth as glass -- but it all sounded like crap. :D

(44.1KHz, stereo, 256sample buffer)
8-Core MacPro | OS X 10.4.10 | Logic 8

That's cool and amazing, but how did it sound?
People talk quantity but not quality.
Do a real life mix. Then post some results, ultimately that's the real world test.
Old 16th September 2007
  #542
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Jazzpunk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
That's cool and amazing, but how did it sound?
People talk quantity but not quality.
Do a real life mix. Then post some results, ultimately that's the real world test.
You a Logic user as well or just here defending your PTHD rig?
Old 16th September 2007
  #543
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Agno's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by YUGA View Post
Bounced the above test project using LP 8 and 7.
Do you hear any difference?
which one is which? On my headphones I would have to select A as my preference.

let us know.. thanx.
Old 16th September 2007
  #544
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flexoffset's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
That's cool and amazing, but how did it sound? eople talk quantity but not quality.
Do a real life mix. Then post some results, ultimately that's the real world test.

Thank you for stating the obvious.

It should come as no surprise that 42 reverbs spread across 7 channels will effectively sound like crap. I said so in my post. heh

Respectfully,
Richard
Old 16th September 2007
  #545
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Rufuss Sewell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by YUGA View Post
Bounced the above test project using LP 8 and 7.
Do you hear any difference?
On this mix, listening through Rosetta 800/Big Ben > Adam s2.5a's...

A: Sounds better. More clear, smoother highs, deeper ambience, punchier drums.

B: Sounds a bit thin. Slightly distorted, more flat, softer drums.


Which is which? Here's to hoping A is Logic 8! haha.
Old 16th September 2007
  #546
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Rufuss Sewell's Avatar
My girlfriend just picked A as sounding better.
Old 16th September 2007
  #547
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JesseJ's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by flexoffset View Post
smooth as glass -- but it all sounded like crap. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
That's cool and amazing, but how did it sound?
heh
Old 16th September 2007
  #548
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Tony Shepperd's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzpunk View Post
You a Logic user as well or just here defending your PTHD rig?
I started using Logic in 1996.
I was an endorsee of Logic for a few years, until Apple bought them, then they dropped all the endorsees.

I used to track on RADAR and then record everything into Logic and cut it up.
Then in 2000 I bought Pro Tools 5 and made the switch.
I still have a Logic 7 dongle and I will probably buy the upgrade to Logic 8.

But for what I do, I don't like working in Logic. I just REALLY prefer Pro Tools.
Old 16th September 2007
  #549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
But for what I do, I don't like working in Logic. I just REALLY prefer Pro Tools.
Cool
Old 16th September 2007
  #550
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H-Rezz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
I started using Logic in 1996.
I was an endorsee of Logic for a few years, until Apple bought them, then they dropped all the endorsees.

I used to track on RADAR and then record everything into Logic and cut it up.
Then in 2000 I bought Pro Tools 5 and made the switch.
I still have a Logic 7 dongle and I will probably buy the upgrade to Logic 8.

But for what I do, I don't like working in Logic. I just REALLY prefer Pro Tools.
Love to hear you thoughts on the new workflow of Logic8 Tony , i know you're a happy P.Tooler but you could have the best of both worlds , especially with the new DAE support and simplified workflow in Logic8
Old 16th September 2007
  #551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854 View Post
Whoa, that's looking pretty sweet, and I say this as a long time PTHD user. At $499, that's pretty much a no-lose proposition for me to pick up a copy and install it on my Mac Pro and see how this baby works...
Apple folks (store employees) get a huge discount (on software (and hardware, just not as big)), but it would blow you away at how much apple employees (Apple Store) pay for software from the FIREWALL Employee Purchase Program.

I am bummed there is no KILLER drum machine like STRIKE.
I have used DrumCore (my second fav), BFD, Addictive, EZ, Groove Agent (great for triggering other instruments), and many others.

So far STRIKE looks to be the most inspiring, not sure if Groove Agent comes close. Any comparisons? GA vs STRIKE? Any STRIKE users? It looks to be very VERY inspiring for writing songs fast. Heard Logics Drum machine sort of a pain to work with.
Old 16th September 2007
  #552
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RedSox's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854 View Post
I've always been very happy with and a fan of PT, but I do have to say based on the overview of features and price Apple just knocked the ball out of the park.

Now I just have to see how many of my PT plugins will also run on Logic...
I worked in a lot of studios, music libraries, (which all have studios) and every PT rig had at least several LOGIC die hards. You just can't Orchestrate/Virtual Synth in PT the way you can in Nuendo, Logic, Cubase 4, etc. I just wish STRIKE would be a AU plug in.

Do they know how many they would sell if it went VST/AU? DO THEY?!

Then again, do they care!
Old 16th September 2007
  #553
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Logic and PT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
But because Apple stated in their manual about compatibility with PT 7.4 and 7.4 has not even been officially announced by Digi yet, I think it's clear that Apple is not really seeing themselves in the high end pro hardware department.

Why should they? From their prospective, why reinvent the wheel.
Why not just stay compatible and let Digidesign make the high end hardware.

It makes good business sense.
I feel that the people at Apple are incredibly (!) strong in long term strategic projections. Even though for every "high-end user" (Big studio, HD5, Icon, etc) there are maybe (I'm just guessing) 500-1000 "low-end users" (home studio, 2 mics, etc...). Apple clearly wants that market, being where the numbers and money are.

But Apple wants the high-end market also IMO. How do you get a high-end user (like youself) to drop PT and go Logic? No single version of Logic no matter how good, is going to do that, especially if you have $15-80k wraped up in a HD3, 192's, Icon. You won't sell all that over night. BUT, if you start using Logic as your sequencer on your TDM rig (hense Logic's continued support of TDM), there's a high probability that down the line when it comes time (now to maxi 4 years) to reinvest is the next generation PT rig, there, you'll say no thanks and stick to native.

And it's all part of a bigger picture of pro video-audio on Apple. Look at the "Made on a Mac" section of the Sundance Film festival. In the near future of TOTALLY digital cinema-TV (no kodak film), Apple wants to arrive there first. Avid-PT used to have a monopoly of that market. But FCP-LP is probably about half way into taking it all over.

Taking about audio (we are on GS!) Apple needed 4 things( IMO) to compete/beat PT.
They now have 3 of the 4: The native power (8 core Macpro's, 3rd party PI's on nodes if needed), Core card (Apogee Symphony), Logic 8 (audio editing capabilities). But they're still lacking the forth, an "Icon"ish control surface. I wouldn't be at all suprised to see another Apple partnership and announcement in the next few months of a high-end control surface for Logic only, at about 1/3 the cost of an Icon.

Old 16th September 2007
  #554
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+1

Another thing is the compability in the apple strategy. Since logic can import garageband projects anyone that has a mac can do recording at home and bring files to a studio that has logic. Garageband can be used with the new duet interface aswell.

I think garageband is realy the modern equivalent of the casette portas of the past.



Edit: Just though I should mention, naturally you will still have to have common knowledge about recording etc.
Old 16th September 2007
  #555
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Tony Shepperd's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post
But Apple wants the high-end market also IMO. How do you get a high-end user (like youself) to drop PT and go Logic? No single version of Logic no matter how good, is going to do that, especially if you have $15-80k wrapped up in a HD3, 192's, Icon. You won't sell all that over night. BUT, if you start using Logic as your sequencer on your TDM rig (hence Logic's continued support of TDM), there's a high probability that down the line when it comes time (now to maxi 4 years) to reinvest is the next generation PT rig, there, you'll say no thanks and stick to native.
Taking about audio (we are on GS!) Apple needed 4 things( IMO) to compete/beat PT.
They now have 3 of the 4: The native power (8 core Macpro's, 3rd party PI's on nodes if needed), Core card (Apogee Symphony), Logic 8 (audio editing capabilities). But they're still lacking the forth, an "Icon"ish control surface. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see another Apple partnership and announcement in the next few months of a high-end control surface for Logic only, at about 1/3 the cost of an Icon.

I think for me to switch back to Logic would require a lot more than the items on your list.
The control service is not really an issue for me.

For me to even think about switching I would need:
1. Full Automatic Delay Compensation throughout the entire systems (aux, I/O...)

2. A multi-channel interface with absolutely NO hint of latency for tracking at least 24 tracks at a time while have a completed mix with all of my plugins running.

3. Plugins from the same variety of manufacturers that I have now. Not just plugins from Logic/Apple.

4. A better sounding engine than the 32 bit floating point.

5. Fix their pan laws so the left right perspective didn't feel like the sonic walls are closing in on my mix.

6. And this is really important...
good old fashioned tech support like Logic Audio used to have. You have a problem, you can get a knowledgeable person on the phone within minutes.

Those are at least my basics for even thinking about switching.
I haven't even gotten into the logistics of the GUI.

Except for the comping feature (which I really like) all the other "new" features of Logic 8 (Simplified Setup, Effortless multitake recording, New audio editing tools, Surround mixing and processing) have been in Pro Tools for at least the past 2 years. Somethings like playlist go back even further than that.

And yes Pro Tools is more expensive, NO QUESTION.
Do I wish it were a lower cost, YES!

But there are so many things on the plus side of Pro Tools for professionals.
If you are a weekend warrior, playing around with Logic is cool for $500.

But getting tech support on the phone to work out a problem in the middle of a tracking session, when you have 10 musicians and tens of thousand of dollars on the line... That's priceless!
Old 16th September 2007
  #556
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Blatboy's Avatar
 

I can agree with you on all those fronts as far as the idea using Logic for the main front end DAW for a professional studio for high end recording. (tho L8 does put it a little further up the chain than it used to be...) Not a PT killer (at least HD for sure) IMHO.

However, as a composer, and for using it for composing, I can say from "professional" experience Logic is hardly a "weekend warrior" package.
Old 16th September 2007
  #557
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
2. A multi-channel interface with absolutely NO hint of latency for tracking at least 24 tracks at a time while have a completed mix with all of my plugins running.
You can get this today, by disabling software monitoring. Some people record with EQs and compressors, others don't, and if you don't - what you want is available already - with lower latency than your PTHD system.

Quote:
3. Plugins from the same variety of manufacturers that I have now. Not just plugins from Logic/Apple.
You aren't stuck with Logic/Apple plugins in Logic. Some plugins, like AltiVerb, have been ported from native formats to TDM over the last few years, while others have been ported from TDM to various native formats. Very few (but still some) are only available in the TDM format, but I think this will change soon, because the native market is growing faster than the TDM market. Sales numbers depend on market size.

Quote:
4. A better sounding engine than the 32 bit floating point.
I've been looking around for ages, but still haven't found one single link to two files which compares 32-bit floating point mixes with 48-bit fixed mixes - showing that 48-bit fixed sounds better. Links are welcome! I've done some A/B-testing myself, but can always A/B a little more!

As you'll see in the two links below, very few people think that Pro Tools actually sound better (only 7% of those who participated in these polls so far). That's a very small group of people who find the fixed 48-bit mix engine a valid reason to use Pro Tools. They can of course still be right, even if they only represent 7%, but I want some proof that they are!

Why do you need/use Pro Tools HD? - Gearslutz.com
Why do you NOT use/need Pro Tools HD? - Gearslutz.com


Quote:
5. Fix their pan laws so the left right perspective didn't feel like the sonic walls are closing in on my mix.
Please explain?

Quote:
6. And this is really important...
good old fashioned tech support like Logic Audio used to have. You have a problem, you can get a knowledgeable person on the phone within minutes.
Now, this may be a difficult one...

So - you are that Pro Tools guy that doesn't use Beat Detective?
Old 16th September 2007
  #558
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It seems like the tech support is now included in apple care, not sure though.

Check here.
Old 16th September 2007
  #559
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DrDeltaM's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
It seems like the tech support is now included in apple care, not sure though.

Check here.
That's a seperate Apple Care product afaik.
Old 16th September 2007
  #560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeltaM View Post
That's a seperate Apple Care product afaik.
Do you mean that you have to pay extra for it or that it does not concern logic studio?

It says:

"Support for current releases of Logic Express and Logic Studio" and "Unlimited number of support incidents for one year"

I´m assuming that it´s not included in the $495 for logic studio if thats what you meant.
Old 16th September 2007
  #561
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
2. A multi-channel interface with absolutely NO hint of latency for tracking at least 24 tracks at a time while have a completed mix with all of my plugins running.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Apogee Symphony system capable of doing this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
3. Plugins from the same variety of manufacturers that I have now. Not just plugins from Logic/Apple.
I don't quite understand this one. There are plenty of excellent 3rd party plugins available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
6. And this is really important...
good old fashioned tech support like Logic Audio used to have. You have a problem, you can get a knowledgeable person on the phone within minutes.
From the AppleCare brochure that came with Logic Studio:

AppleCare Professional Audio Support gives you direct access to Apple's Professional Audio Technical Support team by telephone and email 12 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Old 16th September 2007
  #562
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DrDeltaM's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
Do you mean that you have to pay extra for it or that it does not concern logic studio?

It says:

"Support for current releases of Logic Express and Logic Studio" and "Unlimited number of support incidents for one year"

I´m assuming that it´s not included in the $495 for logic studio if thats what you meant.
Indeed, it's an optional product to expand the standard (I think) 60 day full support, specifically for Logic Express/Studio. Just like you can buy Apple Care specifically for a MacBook or so.
Old 16th September 2007
  #563
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jamwerks's Avatar
 

Weekend warriors on the charge....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
I think for me to switch back to Logic would require a lot more than the items on your list.
The control service is not really an issue for me.

For me to even think about switching I would need:
1. Full Automatic Delay Compensation throughout the entire systems (aux, I/O...)

2. A multi-channel interface with absolutely NO hint of latency for tracking at least 24 tracks at a time while have a completed mix with all of my plugins running.

3. Plugins from the same variety of manufacturers that I have now. Not just plugins from Logic/Apple.

4. A better sounding engine than the 32 bit floating point.

5. Fix their pan laws so the left right perspective didn't feel like the sonic walls are closing in on my mix.

6. And this is really important...
good old fashioned tech support like Logic Audio used to have. You have a problem, you can get a knowledgeable person on the phone within minutes.

Those are at least my basics for even thinking about switching.
I haven't even gotten into the logistics of the GUI.

Except for the comping feature (which I really like) all the other "new" features of Logic 8 (Simplified Setup, Effortless multitake recording, New audio editing tools, Surround mixing and processing) have been in Pro Tools for at least the past 2 years. Somethings like playlist go back even further than that.

And yes Pro Tools is more expensive, NO QUESTION.
Do I wish it were a lower cost, YES!

But there are so many things on the plus side of Pro Tools for professionals.
If you are a weekend warrior, playing around with Logic is cool for $500.

But getting tech support on the phone to work out a problem in the middle of a tracking session, when you have 10 musicians and tens of thousand of dollars on the line... That's priceless!
Some good points......


Logic should be 64 bits with the next OS if I'm not mistaken. That said I'm not sure how much better that wiil really be over 48 fixed.

It's also true that many great plugs are TDM only. Lots have gone native already and in another year or two most other will go also. It's a question of economics (except those that Digi bought, those sneaky bastards!)

I personally can't see any need to track with plugs vs tracking to a bounce, but you're probably not the only one with that requirement.

But to say PT is for professionals and Logic for those who play around is pretty... well.... (I'm without words)..........
Old 16th September 2007
  #564
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post
But to say PT is for professionals and Logic for those who play around is pretty... well.... (I'm without words)..........
arrogant?
Old 16th September 2007
  #565
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeltaM View Post
Indeed, it's an optional product to expand the standard (I think) 60 day full support, specifically for Logic Express/Studio.
It's 90 days. (according to the AppleCare brochure)
Old 16th September 2007
  #566
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DrDeltaM's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PBenz View Post
It's 90 days. (according to the AppleCare brochure)
I knew it was something like 'a few months'
Old 16th September 2007
  #567
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Tony Shepperd's Avatar
Native, you completely had no comment about the first one.
1. Full ADC throughout Logic's entire system...

2. Why is there always a "if you do this, you might be able to do that", work around.

3. Stuck is your word, not mine. But there are a list of HD TDM plugins I would have to see. The depth of Pro Tools plugins is impressive.

4. You would have to find someone who mixes in Logic NATIVE and Pro Tools HD and to honest, I don't know anyone who does that.
The last time I tried a Native mix on Logic I gave up after the first hour and went back to Pro Tools HD.

5. Have you noticed when you mix in Logic the the mix does not feel was wide as it does in Pro Tools?

Check this website out from Logic Quick Tips.
Logic QuickTips: The Laws of the Pan
If you haven't explicitly set a Pan Law in Logic, then I *strongly* urge you to try this one out.

A pan law is the algorithm a DAW uses to pan an audio signal between the left and right outputs.

By default, Logic uses a 0dB pan law. If you've been using Logic prior to 7.1, you will have been using a 0dB pan law in all your mixes, as it's the only pan law Logic had.

With a 0dB pan law, Logic does not change the signal level when you pan a signal, which means that when a signal is dead centre, it is actually louder than when it is at the extreme left or right.

Think about it - when panned fully to the left, you're hearing one channel at the fader level, whereas in the centre you're hearing two channels (left and right channel), each at the fader level - therefore the combined signal is 6dB louder.

7.1 finally introduced some pan law options, letting you choose between 0dB, -3dB, and -3dB Compensated. You'll the option under File -> Song Settings -> Audio.

The -3dB and -3dB Compensated algorithms actually reduce the level of a signal when it's in the centre (or increases the level when it's fully panned), so the centre doesn't appear louder.

These two settings are effectively the same apart from a 3dB volume adjustment:
-3dB setting: Left 0dB, Centre -3dB, Right 0dB
-3dB compensated setting: Left +3dB, Centre 0dB, Right +3dB

-3dB: Reduces a signal by 3dB when panned to the centre
-3dB comp: Increases the level of a signal by 3dB when panned fully to the left or right.

I often found it tricky to get a mix I was happy with, I often found the mix "flat" and lacking depth, or the centre was too forward, and I had to work really hard to get something I was happy with - then I found the pan law settings, and using the -3dB Compensated setting, all of a sudden my depth was back, the mixes "sat" much better, and the depth increased.

Having told a few other people about this, they all had a similar positive experience - so I strongly urge you to try it for yourself and see which settings work best for you. You may find you don't want to go back to the 0dB default...

The Pan Law is a Song Setting rather than a system preference, so if you want to always use it, make sure you change the setting in your default autoload song and any other templates you use.



6. The tech support is a huge issue. I know people who have switched because of the tech support.
Composers who have tight deadlines and can't get the help they need, when they need it.
When you can't get someone on the phone and money is on the line, it changes your perspective about a company.

I don't mean to put Logic down it is a professional app, but past the composing stage, mixing is not quite as elegant as Pro Tools.
IMO there are fewer items for Digi to get right to be the best all round DAW than Logic.
Clearly YMMV.
Old 16th September 2007
  #568
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Specs states that symphony has a 1.6 ms latency for in and out compared to pro tools HD which (if Im not mistaken) is 2.4 ms. All this with 96 i/o at 96 khz, not bad.

Apart from the converters which are clearly better I think symphony might need some real world tests to prove itself. If it lives up to the claims it will be a killer (pun) system IMO.
Old 16th September 2007
  #569
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
Native, you completely had no comment about the first one.
1. Full ADC throughout Logic's entire system...
Sure, because Logic 8 don't seem to have full ADC throughout Logic's entire system, and had useful comments to post.

Quote:
2. Why is there always a "if you do this, you might be able to do that", work around.
I dislike workarounds, and don't want any. I'm not even saying that people should use Logic instead of PT or whatever they want to use - I'm just saying that latency isn't an issue with software monitoring off. Clever monitoring is an issue with software monitoring off.


Quote:
3. Stuck is your word, not mine. But there are a list of HD TDM plugins I would have to see. The depth of Pro Tools plugins is impressive.
... which makes the choice simple - use PTHD!

Quote:
4. You would have to find someone who mixes in Logic NATIVE and Pro Tools HD and to honest, I don't know anyone who does that.
There are various examples out there - like 3daudio's DAW SUM CDs...


Quote:
5. Have you noticed when you mix in Logic the the mix does not feel was wide as it does in Pro Tools?
Again... it only takes a stereo file to convince me that the result is better in PTHD. I have checked out that DAW SUM CD, and wasn't convinced.

Quote:
By default, Logic uses a 0dB pan law.
By default Logic 8 uses -3db compensated. Before that the default was -3db, and before that again, the only choice was 0db.

Quote:
You may find you don't want to go back to the 0dB default...
I haven't been using that default (which - again - isn't the default anymore, it's just just an option for backwards compatiblity) for several years...


Quote:
Clearly YMMV.
Sure - and while we may have different opinions about what the real differences between Logic 8 and the current PTHD version is (there are other features in a PTHD system I would like to see in Logic 8.* than you mention) the solution is simple. Use what you like the most, and put money into what you think gives you the best results.
Old 16th September 2007
  #570
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
Specs states that symphony has a 1.6 ms latency for in and out compared to pro tools HD which (if Im not mistaken) is 2.4 ms. All this with 96 i/o at 96 khz, not bad.
Symphony has a 1.6 ms latency at 96kHz if you use a 32 sample buffer.

Most people don't work in 96k - and most people, if any, use the 32 buffer throughout a project. Comparing Symphony's 1.6 ms with PTHD's 2.38 ms latency (at 44.1) may have marketing value, but the results would be based on an unfair comparison.

A real comparison would have to be between these two settings at the same sample rate, because when using 96kHz, the latencies values are reduced by 50% (compared with 48kHz). In other words, a Symphony system has higher, not lower latencies than a PTHD system under similar conditions. A native system with Software Monitoring switched off have lower latencies than a PTHD system (Software Monitoring can't be switched off in a PTHD system).
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