The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Apogee Duet, professional two-channel firewire audio interface for the Mac Audio Interfaces
Old 6th June 2008
  #901
Quote:
Originally Posted by macleodgrant View Post
good points to be concerned about! i for one don't know the answer but would love to know the true answer. i use a monitor controller between my interfaces and speakers as it is
Also now used the Duet for 3 months with no issues like that and it's has been rock solid period.
Old 11th June 2008
  #902
Gear Addict
 
svart's Avatar
 

anyone know if there are plans to offer even minimal support for Windows? All I want are ASIO streams to input into my tracking app of choice.

I am not going to go through the hassle of buying a mac and software just to use a duet. It's just poor marketing to leave a significant group of potential customers out in the cold just because you want the small contingent of mac users to continue to feel special and/or literally force non-apple users to dish out overly large amounts of money just to use a product that fills a specific niche.

That being said, Duet would be perfect for some of the things I regularly do, stereo live recording namely. I just don't like the marketing strategy and unfortunately it's going to force my hand into not purchasing any Apogee products on principle alone. Once I see windows support, I'll be ordering one immediately.
Old 11th June 2008
  #903
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by svart View Post
It's just poor marketing to leave a significant group of potential customers out in the cold just because you want the small contingent of mac users to continue to feel special and/or literally force non-apple users to dish out overly large amounts of money just to use a product that fills a specific niche.
Taking this a little personally, aren't we? It seems *highly* unlikely that Apogee has made the choice they have for the reasons you state. They've made a business decision that is the right one for them, and I'd be unsurprised if it involved a contractual obligation with Apple in return for money, marketing, better support, or whatever.

The idea that they're Mac-only in order to flip the bird at Windows users is just absurd.

Metric Halo gear is also Mac-only. Although this isn't a large sample space, it does imply that there are legitimate business reasons for doing so. It may well be that the additional hassle and expense of writing drivers and plugs and apps for a second O/S simply isn't offset by the revenues. Or maybe the principals in both companies simply hate Windows. heh
Old 11th June 2008
  #904
Gear Addict
 
svart's Avatar
 

I take it personally because I don't like the marketing strategy. I've read a number of pieces that do hint at a close collaboration between apogee and mac for the duet. It seems like a ploy to get folks to move towards apple by enticing them with gadgets that fit a real need, but only if you use certain hardware. Like I said before though, the Duet would be perfect for what I need: small, light, bus powered, no BS I/O, etc. No one else has anything like it for the price, they are dead on with this marketing point.

I don't really care for windows and all their anti-trust crap either. They tried to muscle everyone else out just like Apogee seems to be doing with Apple now. It's just that I have all my programs/settings/hardware based on windows and I don't have the cash to obtain a mac laptop let alone another expensive software suite, which is exactly what I feel they intend for me to do. I don't like practically being told that I am not using the *correct* hardware/software. I use what I feel works best for me as should any Mac user should feel if it works for them.

They have other products that use similar technology and they have fully developed mac AND windows drivers. Since these are ports to intel architecture already, it wouldn't be much to go the rest of the way to port some windows drivers as well. I work in electronics and work with software/firmware developers daily so I know that once the framework is complete, it's not *that* hard to port to a different OS. It certainly doesn't take a room full of engineers months to port to a different OS, I see single engineers do it in very little time at all.

Before anyone gives me the "if you don't like it, don't buy it" stuff, I'll tell you that is exactly what is going to happen. I'm just peeved that I see something very perfect for what I need and I have to settle for something less.
Old 11th June 2008
  #905
Lives for gear
 

One issue with both the Duet and Ensemble is that Apogee didn't write any drivers. They use the OS-X core audio firewire drivers. Apple provide this as a known API that a device can be designed to. So to port the Duet to Windows would involve significant new work that does not already exist.

Actually it may involve more than just writing drivers - since those drivers would implicitly need to implement the OS-X core audio drivers - which contain Apple IP - no doubt some of it protected. So Apogee would need to redesign the Duet's internal software as well, to implement some other IO API.

The Duet has been a real success. If the market exists for a Windows version one might imagine that some other vendors will be readying their own designs of a clone.
Old 11th June 2008
  #906
Gear Addict
 
svart's Avatar
 

I had an insider tell me a little about the preamps at least. TI PGA2500 digitally controllable ICs. 12$ each in 1K quantity. No doubt driven by a small FPGA or DSP/micro which likely controls the AD/DA and the firewire I/O. Likely paired to a codec of some sorts as well. I would bet it's an AKM codec due to their low quantity pricing.

As for the core drivers, that makes sense in a way. Apogee wouldn't even really have to do much at all. I suppose that cheapens things up considerably for them and allows them to sell it so cheap. However that would be POOR judgement on Apogee's part to paint themselves into a corner by using Apple IP embedded in the Duet firmware. I would think that they would use some standard datastream that Apple's drivers can utilize without going totally proprietary, but that's just me.

I don't think there would be much involved in changing things on the Duet side. If it's an FPGA then they have a bootloader on a prom/flash. They surely designed a dual boot image arrangement as well, that is just good design practice. That way they could update the firmware on the fly and the next boot sequence would load the new firmware and back it up in the secondary image. Again, just good design practice and very easy to update this way, you could likely do it from the computer too.

As for data, I don't know if Apple uses some proprietary firewire bitstream but I assume that it wouldn't be hard to change the format and/or write a driver that converts into another format once the data is native to the PC. It might hurt latency slightly but it would be fairly easy I would think.

I could have it all wrong and Apogee could have never intended to port this to any other OS and we windows and Linux users would be screwed. Lets hope I'm wrong.
Old 11th June 2008
  #907
Lives for gear
 

Pre-amps are indeed PGA2500. Converter is a Crystal part, not AKM, the rest is STI LM388 opamps (not exactly expensive). The reason it works so well isn't really the parts (although this helps) but the layout and the 6 layer PCB. That and some care with PS design and other things. Experience perhaps more than anything.

Core micro-controller is in the Oxford Firewire controller - which includes an Arm core. One chip wonder runs the whole shebang. Chip has serial control buses that directly run the PGA2500s. Also provides clock to the ADC/DAC chip. Same chip in the Ensemble I suspect - it has enough IO pins to run it. Chip even has direct input pins for the controller knob.

Firewire is more complex than a datastream. Firewire presents a virtual address space with control registers directly addressable. So rather than a protocol that involves packets going back and forth you have a memory mapped paradigm for control. (Obviously packets under this, but you don't code at this level.) So again, it isn't so easy to do a simple port - especially if the API is proprietary. Not that it is impossible, but it is a business decision. Other vendors do provide dual use systems and use Apple's API on OS-X.
Old 11th June 2008
  #908
Gear Addict
 

just get the tc electronics konnekt, it's just as good if not better
than the Duet. works 100% stable on my macbook and pc.
and sounds fantastic... some say better than duet..
check out the shootout someone did on this board..
it's true, amazing.
Old 11th June 2008
  #909
Gear Addict
 
svart's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis Vaughan View Post
Pre-amps are indeed PGA2500. Converter is a Crystal part, not AKM, the rest is STI LM388 opamps (not exactly expensive). The reason it works so well isn't really the parts (although this helps) but the layout and the 6 layer PCB. That and some care with PS design and other things. Experience perhaps more than anything.

Core micro-controller is in the Oxford Firewire controller - which includes an Arm core. One chip wonder runs the whole shebang. Chip has serial control buses that directly run the PGA2500s. Also provides clock to the ADC/DAC chip. Same chip in the Ensemble I suspect - it has enough IO pins to run it. Chip even has direct input pins for the controller knob.

Firewire is more complex than a datastream. Firewire presents a virtual address space with control registers directly addressable. So rather than a protocol that involves packets going back and forth you have a memory mapped paradigm for control. (Obviously packets under this, but you don't code at this level.) So again, it isn't so easy to do a simple port - especially if the API is proprietary. Not that it is impossible, but it is a business decision. Other vendors do provide dual use systems and use Apple's API on OS-X.
So you're saying that you work for Apogee?

heh


Firewire controller with ARM core eh? I might have to tell the guys at work about that one...

It sounds like a pretty tidy setup, much more tidy that I expected for the price. Indeed the devil is in the details. I routinely deal with 8-12 layer boards at work..

thumbsup

Quote:
Firewire is more complex than a datastream
True, but at some level you always have a datastream that can be stripped/parsed out. It might not be trivial or elegant but it has been done..


I'll check out the Konnekt, thanks!
Old 11th June 2008
  #910
Lives for gear
 
jslevin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by svart View Post
I take it personally because I don't like the marketing strategy. I've read a number of pieces that do hint at a close collaboration between apogee and mac for the duet.
Hint? There's no hint, Apogee is working closely with Apple. Period.

This isn't a marketing strategy, it's a business decision, cost and benefit, best use of cash, best opportunity for profit, that sort of thing.

I've said it a million times ... Windows users in general are not people who are in the habit of paying a premium for (what they perceive to be) a superior product. Apogee makes only premium products, Metric-Halo is basically the Cadillac of interfaces.

Windows users would not be willing to pay for these products in significant numbers, and it would cost a small fortune to develop the drivers and support the zillion-plus configurations. It's simply not a winning proposition for these companies -- there is not a significant chance that they would make a significant profit, therefore they're going to devote their resources elsewhere, toward lower-hanging fruit if you will.

Don't take it personally, it's just a cost/benefit analysis on the return on investment. Windows is a mass-market brand, like K-Mart, not a premium brand like Apple. There is simply more affinity with other premium brands for Apple.

JSL
Old 11th June 2008
  #911
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by svart View Post
So you're saying that you work for Apogee?
No, but just a sad geek that likes to know how what he has bought works. heh
Quote:
Firewire controller with ARM core eh? I might have to tell the guys at work about that one...
Oxford Semiconductor OXFW971 Very neat.
Quote:
True, but at some level you always have a datastream that can be stripped/parsed out. It might not be trivial or elegant but it has been done..
Actually now I have quick look at the Oxford datasheet they claim that it supports Windows..... Looks much more like an Apple/Apogee agreement now. Just the styling alone suggests Apogee (and Apple's) intent.
Old 11th June 2008
  #912
Gear Addict
 
svart's Avatar
 

Quote:
Actually now I have quick look at the Oxford datasheet they claim that it supports Windows
Of course it HAS to, firewire is a standard across all platforms and the data stream has a set structure. How the data is encoded within that structure can change and that is where the drivers interface and do what they do. This is what I was trying to get across last night. IF apogee/mac/windows, whomever, calls it Firewire, it has to conform to the standard.


Quote:
Don't take it personally, it's just a cost/benefit analysis on the return on investment. Windows is a mass-market brand, like K-Mart, not a premium brand like Apple. There is simply more affinity with other premium brands for Apple.
Premium? A Dell or an HP would also be premium if you use the word in that context. They sell completed boxes that are intended to have minimal user tweaking, same as a mac sans smug attitude.


Quote:
I've said it a million times ... Windows users in general are not people who are in the habit of paying a premium for (what they perceive to be) a superior product. Apogee makes only premium products, Metric-Halo is basically the Cadillac of interfaces.
Quote:
Windows users would not be willing to pay for these products in significant numbers, and it would cost a small fortune to develop the drivers and support the zillion-plus configurations. It's simply not a winning proposition for these companies -- there is not a significant chance that they would make a significant profit, therefore they're going to devote their resources elsewhere, toward lower-hanging fruit if you will.
Just because someone uses windows makes them 'cheap'? I think that anyone given the choice between programs will always weigh price vs. performance. Apple simply does not give you that, it's their way or the highway as the saying goes. There is no choice, you are stuck paying the the price they set and somehow urge you to feel 'superior' or you simply don't play. Their marketing plan was always flawed in my opinion. I've used my share of macs and I simply got tired of the things. I chose PCs because I could do what I wanted without the egotistical hassle. I better go get rid of all my SSL gear, my Neve gear, My API gear, my lexicons, my Gefells, etc and all of the other stuff that might give people the impression that I have spent lots of money on my studio. I better run out and get a digi001 or Duet and Mac laptop and get PRO right away.

As I stated before, drivers for a standard protocol like firewire are generally clearly defined and would be fairly easy to write if you are simply translating the Apple/mac bitstream to something like ASIO. Someone who makes a box like this with my estimated cost that is less than half of the selling price should be able to quickly move to support "lesser" users like us windows users.
Old 12th June 2008
  #913
Lives for gear
 
jslevin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by svart View Post
Premium? A Dell or an HP would also be premium if you use the word in that context. They sell completed boxes that are intended to have minimal user tweaking, same as a mac sans smug attitude.
No. Dell or HP are premium brands only among generic Windows boxes; they are not viewed as premium brands in the general marketplace. They sell generic boxes and compete almost entirely on price, based on high-volume manufacturing efficiencies. That is not what a premium brand does.

Quote:
Just because someone uses windows makes them 'cheap'?
No, I never said that. Stop being a baby and taking this personally. This is not about you.

What I said was a characterization of the overall market of Windows DAW users. It does not apply to every individual user — of course not. It's a generalization, and that means it's imperfect and limited. But companies choosing whether to develop for a certain market have to consider the reality of the whole market, not the deservingness of a handful of potential customers like you.

Quote:
Apple simply does not give you that, it's their way or the highway as the saying goes. There is no choice, you are stuck paying the the price they set and somehow urge you to feel 'superior' or you simply don't play.
Right. That's what a premium brand does. I never said everyone should like it.

Quote:
Their marketing plan was always flawed in my opinion.
You sure have a lot of opinions about companies' marketing plans. What exactly is your marketing background? Have you ever run a company or developed or marketed a new product?

Quote:
I chose PCs because I could do what I wanted without the egotistical hassle.
Frankly, it seems like your decisions have been driven by image/branding issues and not by substantive, practical considerations.

Quote:
I better go get rid of all my SSL gear, my Neve gear, My API gear, my lexicons, my Gefells, etc and all of the other stuff that might give people the impression that I have spent lots of money on my studio. I better run out and get a digi001 or Duet and Mac laptop and get PRO right away.
Heh — that's funny. Apple is a premium brand, but more accurately, it's a premium consumer brand, and while Apogee primarily makes professional products, the Duet pretty clearly is a consumer product (albeit with pretty professional quality). It clearly is designed for and marketed to consumer applications — hence the affinity with Apple, a premium consumer brand. The brands you name here are obviously some of the top brands in the industry — they're professional products. Whole different category. There are of course many professional products that do support Windows, but a high-end consumer audio product is not a good fit for the Windows customer base — just like you don't see a lot of Zune accessories advertised.

Quote:
As I stated before, drivers for a standard protocol like firewire are generally clearly defined and would be fairly easy to write if you are simply translating the Apple/mac bitstream to something like ASIO. Someone who makes a box like this with my estimated cost that is less than half of the selling price should be able to quickly move to support "lesser" users like us windows users.
Well, that's easier for you to say — i.e., pull out of your ass — than for someone else to do, devoting their own time and money resources towards it. Most ASIO drivers are more or less a disaster, so I assume that it isn't all that easy to do. And again, it's a question of whether the potential profit — net of all the development and support costs — really justifies diverting the resources away from something else.

JSL
Old 12th June 2008
  #914
Gear Addict
 
svart's Avatar
 

Quote:
No. Dell or HP are premium brands only among generic Windows boxes; they are not viewed as premium brands in the general marketplace. They sell generic boxes and compete almost entirely on price, based on high-volume manufacturing efficiencies. That is not what a premium brand does.
My point that you completely missed is that premium is relative to the context of the arguement. Apple is premium in their own minds and the minds of folks that like them. Now that they are Intel based they are no more than a PC with a different OS and "approved" driver sets. Dell and HP are premium brands, not generic boxes, same as Mac. I don't care for any of them but I can get a true generic PC box from any corner computer store for MUCH less thus making those brands premium.

Quote:
No, I never said that. Stop being a baby and taking this personally. This is not about you.

What I said was a characterization of the overall market of Windows DAW users. It does not apply to every individual user — of course not. It's a generalization, and that means it's imperfect and limited. But companies choosing whether to develop for a certain market have to consider the reality of the whole market, not the deservingness of a handful of potential customers like you.
Actually you did:

Quote:
I've said it a million times ... Windows users in general are not people who are in the habit of paying a premium for (what they perceive to be) a superior product.
Just because you didn't use the word "cheap" doesn't mean you didn't imply it. You also implied that they are also inferior by using the word 'superior' which supports this argument and solidifies the position of which you view windows users. So I have to ask, just because a person uses Apple, that means that they WANT to pay 'premium' prices for their equipment? I know that they don't have a choice, but does that mean they really wanted to or does the extra price somehow stroke the ego because you are now 'superior' just like the product you purchased?

Quote:
Right. That's what a premium brand does. I never said everyone should like it.
Right, being 'premium' and being elitist are two different things.

Quote:
You sure have a lot of opinions about companies' marketing plans. What exactly is your marketing background? Have you ever run a company or developed or marketed a new product?
Yes and yes. Nondisclosure agreements don't allow me to discuss what I've done lately. Currently I design electronics..

Quote:
Frankly, it seems like your decisions have been driven by image/branding issues and not by substantive, practical considerations.
I don't see how you inferred that from what I said. I build my own computers because I can put in whatever I designate as necessity, therefor every part is installed based on "substantive, practical considerations" as well as thorough research and performance evaluations. I don't blindly purchase a computer from anyone, Dell, HP, Apple, or anyone else regardless of their claims.

Quote:
Heh — that's funny. Apple is a premium brand, but more accurately, it's a premium consumer brand, and while Apogee primarily makes professional products, the Duet pretty clearly is a consumer product (albeit with pretty professional quality). It clearly is designed for and marketed to consumer applications — hence the affinity with Apple, a premium consumer brand. The brands you name here are obviously some of the top brands in the industry — they're professional products. Whole different category. There are of course many professional products that do support Windows, but a high-end consumer audio product is not a good fit for the Windows customer base — just like you don't see a lot of Zune accessories advertised.
Professional, commercial, consumer, premium, generic, does anyone really care about the labels that you apply as long as it gets the job done? You're right, I don't see a lot of Zune anything. I'll the first to agree that it was late to the party and a dollar short. You'll have to agree that an Ipod isn't a good fit in a studio. I have to ask though, WTF does Zune or Ipod have to do with what we are discussing? Nothing. You tried to make a point by using a product that had nothing to do with what we are talking about. Fail. I just don't see how you infer that there isn't a market for professional windows users. Almost every other product made has at least minimal driver support for windows.

Quote:
Well, that's easier for you to say — i.e., pull out of your ass — than for someone else to do, devoting their own time and money resources towards it. Most ASIO drivers are more or less a disaster, so I assume that it isn't all that easy to do. And again, it's a question of whether the potential profit — net of all the development and support costs — really justifies diverting the resources away from something else.

Seeing that I not only directed an electronics department for 3 years, I work with firmware/driver engineers daily at my current job so it's quite easy for me to say what I did simply because I see it daily. Assuming that since you are vehemently against windows I can only assume that are a Mac user, likely only have experience with Macs and therefor any ASIO drivers you have experienced are on Macs. We all know that marketing strategy.. Make it really hard for anything non-mac to actually work, driving the PC/mac resentment further. I've not had any issues with ASIO drivers on any program with a PC.
Old 13th June 2008
  #915
Lives for gear
 
jslevin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by svart View Post
My point that you completely missed is that premium is relative to the context of the arguement. Apple is premium in their own minds and the minds of folks that like them.
I didn't completely miss your point. I completely got your point, and in fact you didn't even need to make it. You think I'm using "premium" as a general term, and your point is that "premium" (like most adjectives) is relative and a matter of perspective. Got it. Except that I wasn't using it as a general term.

"Premium brand" is a marketing term. It doesn't really refer to the quality of a company's products, but rather to the company's approach to creating, marketing, pricing and positioning products within the larger market. Apple clearly has taken this approach. Read this for a more general idea of what I'm talking about. Dell is not a premium brand — everything's always on sale, it might as well be Sears.

Now then, getting back to the Duet. On the one hand, it can be seen as a price/performance breakthrough. On the other hand, it's still a 2-input audio interface for $500. Based on the pricing, the high-style design and the audio quality, it clearly is aimed at the same premium brand-loving types of customers. Is this getting any clearer?

Quote:
Now that they are Intel based they are no more than a PC with a different OS and "approved" driver sets. Dell and HP are premium brands, not generic boxes, same as Mac. I don't care for any of them but I can get a true generic PC box from any corner computer store for MUCH less thus making those brands premium.
Yes, all of this is from your point of view, as a seasoned electronics professional, which has nothing to do with how consumers will view these products.

Quote:
Actually you did:
No, I didn't. There is a difference between saying (a) certain attributes characterize the Windows DAW customer base in general, and saying (b) certain attributes characterize every single Windows DAW customer. I said (a), and I never said (b). Only an idiot would say (b).

You are not cheap. You are not unwilling to pay extra for superior quality. And there are thousands of other Windows DAW users who are not cheap, and not unwilling to pay for superior quality. But Windows DAW users in general are cheap and unwilling to pay extra for superior quality. That's what developers are faced with, and what we're all stuck with.

Quote:
Just because you didn't use the word "cheap" doesn't mean you didn't imply it.
Well, I just used it explicitly, so you can skip that part of the discussion.

Quote:
So I have to ask, just because a person uses Apple, that means that they WANT to pay 'premium' prices for their equipment? I know that they don't have a choice, but does that mean they really wanted to or does the extra price somehow stroke the ego because you are now 'superior' just like the product you purchased?
I think that generally, Apple customers are pleased to pay extra for what they perceive to be a better product.

Quote:
I don't see how you inferred that from what I said.
You don't? You wrote: "I chose PCs because I could do what I wanted without the egotistical hassle." You made lots of references to Apple and its marketing being "smug," "elitist," etc. It's clear you don't like the Apple brand, the image they cultivate, what their customers buy into, etc. I think it's fair to say you have complained bitterly about these things, and since in many ways you'd have an easier time as a Mac DAW user, it's pretty clear that your strong feelings about the brand have influenced your decisions.

Quote:
I build my own computers because I can put in whatever I designate as necessity, therefor every part is installed based on "substantive, practical considerations" as well as thorough research and performance evaluations. I don't blindly purchase a computer from anyone, Dell, HP, Apple, or anyone else regardless of their claims.
And what you're missing is, sometimes purchasing a product "blind" is actually more substantive and practical. You spend a lot of time identifying the exact right components, but this stuff is quite commoditized at this point. It ain't 1995 anymore, your component-level choices are not all that important.

I mean, are you gonna build your own TV that way, too? And if not, why not?

Quote:
Professional, commercial, consumer, premium, generic, does anyone really care about the labels that you apply as long as it gets the job done?
You and I don't care as customers, no. We want for it to work and to be a good value. But this discussion started with your complaining about what third party companies are and aren't willing to do. They do have to care about those labels, because they characterize consumer behavior.

Quote:
I just don't see how you infer that there isn't a market for professional windows users. Almost every other product made has at least minimal driver support for windows.
And almost every product made is a mass-market consumer product, not premium-branded, and also not designed for the professional market. Many can be used in professional applications, but that's not the same as being designed for or marketed to professionals.

Quote:
Assuming that since you are vehemently against windows I can only assume that are a Mac user, likely only have experience with Macs and therefor any ASIO drivers you have experienced are on Macs.
Dude ... I am typing this on a Dell.

I have never been talking about you or me. I have been talking about the market for DAW products.

Quote:
We all know that marketing strategy.. Make it really hard for anything non-mac to actually work, driving the PC/mac resentment further.
You cannot be serious. Microsoft practically invented this strategy, and yet in this case you manage to blame Apple for the decisions of third-party developers.

I imagine you design some very fine electronics, but boy ... you are deeply confused about every other subject.

JSL
Old 13th June 2008
  #916
Lives for gear
 
desotoslo's Avatar
 

order in the court!
Old 13th June 2008
  #917
Gear Addict
 
svart's Avatar
 

Quote:
you are deeply confused about every other subject.
I'm going to stop at this point because I feel the same way about everything you said too and we are going to just go round-n-round about this..

BUT, I will qualify this statement:

Quote:
in many ways you'd have an easier time as a Mac DAW user, it's pretty clear that your strong feelings about the brand have influenced your decisions.
I used Macs (protools) for a while, in parallel with windows DAWs(nuendo/reaper) and I ultimately found the windows boxes easier to deal with, upgrade, fix, etc. That was my choice some time ago and I've not had to reverse my decision. I know I made the right choice for me and I've not had a single real issue that wasn't my own doing. I've only purchased what I deemed best to get the job done and that means sifting through the marketing and propaganda to find what works the best, not what someone told me was the best/premium or whatever the market term is (that is how many folks get into trouble, they just stuff whatever crap into their machines without research). Sometimes that even means that I buy something that nobody else likes, sometimes that means that I spend top dollar for the very best. It's all relative to what I need and how it works. I just see a huge amount of parroting when it comes to what people want and it gets old. People who don't know that they are being heavily influenced by marketing without actually getting to know the equipment. They buy something because they are told that product X is "premium" and that is what they should get. They do this blindly although product Y could possibly have been the much better choice in the situation. I only intended to push back against the 'this is how it is, use product X or you don't know what you are doing' type of attitude that is displayed on a daily basis. This is evident in the marketing strategy of Apogee/Apple, to lock in new users into a product at a lower level. This also locks everyone else out from products that would otherwise be well accepted in other markets. Everyone could win if they didn't choose to exclude certain groups.

Right now I need a quality(I know what parts are being used in the Duet and I like it..) portable interface that's in the same price range. This is a side project and until I feel out if it will work, I don't want to invest serious money yet. I do, however, want quality audio right from the beginning. There's no sense in starting off with crap, nobody wants to give crap another gig when there are so many other contractors to choose from these days.
Old 14th June 2008
  #918
Lives for gear
 
Dysanfel's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by svart View Post
It seems like a ploy to get folks to move towards apple by enticing them with gadgets that fit a real need, but only if you use certain hardware.
I bet it has more to do with eliminating the infinite variations of PC hardware and the support nightmare that goes along with it. And for what its worth, theres nothing stopping other companies from doing the same sort of design for the PC.
Old 14th June 2008
  #919
Lives for gear
 
jslevin's Avatar
Well, look, you are still confusing being annoyed with the marketing, with your own practical concerns, with the business decisions of another company.

Those are three separate topics, and if you could separate them, you wouldn't be so confused about all of them. You also need to separate generalities from blanket statements — you need to learn to separate, period.

Annoyed about the marketing? Too bad. It's only marketing, and the quality of the products is what it is — as you and I well know. You are not going to change the fact that people respond to marketing.

Your own practical concerns — you have the skill set to spec and build and support your own PC's such that that's trivial for you. Because of that, the Mac value proposition is weak — for you. But others don't have your skills.

I could build my own PC's, too — I don't design electronics, but I did run a significant support operation at one point. I decided at some point that it wasn't worth the effort to build my own stuff or even to support it. I don't build my own TV, and I don't see why I should build my own computer. It's just a computer. Buy from a vendor with a good support reputation, stock with a ton of RAM — done. I spend my time worrying about other things — that's a choice.

Since I have come to be so disinterested in PC construction, I end up with a Mac for music production. Why? Because it's better supported for music production. More high-quality products, more compatibility, better support and more options. For the commercial studio aspect, especially, to use Windows would offer literally no advantages — except better mastering software, I guess — and invite a ton of eye-rolling. You may not have those issues.

It is a reality of the market that better music production software is available for Mac at this point. There's only two cross-platform systems left — Digidesign support is better on Macs, Steinberg support is better on Windows — you tell me which way the wind is blowing. RME, once a maker of Windows-only products, went full-force into Mac support years ago — they're considered a boutique option for Windows DAWs, but only a good mid-level choice for Macs. Metric-Halo, Apogee — Mac only. Reaper, Sonar — Windows only. Logic, Digital Performer — Mac only.

You can find threads here where people are complaining bitterly that they have to get an iLok in order to use a demo. All of those people are Windows users. Mac users almost all have an iLok already, for one product or another. They expect to have to pay for software. That's the reality of the market. Mac users would like for everything to be free, but Windows users actually think that everything is free. Again, that's just a generality — not every Mac and Windows user could be described that way.

So you end up in a box. If you got a Mac, you'd have better options all-around for high-quality audio. You have options on Windows, but not the ones you want. Meanwhile, Macs are a worse deal for you than they are for other people, because you have no problem building and supporting your own PC — so all that "it just works" **** is meaningless to you, because your **** works, too.

But none of this has anything to do with Apogee supporting Windows. You think Duet would be "accepted" in other markets, but you don't know that. I daresay Apogee has studied that very question more than you and I have — and if they really thought "everyone would win" — including Apogee — then of course this already would have happened. But the reality is, you are only you. You are not the Windows market, and believe me, the Windows market sure as **** isn't anything like you, in fact. If it were, Dell and HP would go out of business.

JSL



Quote:
Originally Posted by svart View Post
I'm going to stop at this point because I feel the same way about everything you said too and we are going to just go round-n-round about this..

BUT, I will qualify this statement:

I used Macs (protools) for a while, in parallel with windows DAWs(nuendo/reaper) and I ultimately found the windows boxes easier to deal with, upgrade, fix, etc. That was my choice some time ago and I've not had to reverse my decision. I know I made the right choice for me and I've not had a single real issue that wasn't my own doing. I've only purchased what I deemed best to get the job done and that means sifting through the marketing and propaganda to find what works the best, not what someone told me was the best/premium or whatever the market term is (that is how many folks get into trouble, they just stuff whatever crap into their machines without research). Sometimes that even means that I buy something that nobody else likes, sometimes that means that I spend top dollar for the very best. It's all relative to what I need and how it works. I just see a huge amount of parroting when it comes to what people want and it gets old. People who don't know that they are being heavily influenced by marketing without actually getting to know the equipment. They buy something because they are told that product X is "premium" and that is what they should get. They do this blindly although product Y could possibly have been the much better choice in the situation. I only intended to push back against the 'this is how it is, use product X or you don't know what you are doing' type of attitude that is displayed on a daily basis. This is evident in the marketing strategy of Apogee/Apple, to lock in new users into a product at a lower level. This also locks everyone else out from products that would otherwise be well accepted in other markets. Everyone could win if they didn't choose to exclude certain groups.

Right now I need a quality(I know what parts are being used in the Duet and I like it..) portable interface that's in the same price range. This is a side project and until I feel out if it will work, I don't want to invest serious money yet. I do, however, want quality audio right from the beginning. There's no sense in starting off with crap, nobody wants to give crap another gig when there are so many other contractors to choose from these days.
Old 16th June 2008
  #920
Gear Addict
 
svart's Avatar
 

Quote:
Well, look, you are still confusing being annoyed with the marketing, with your own practical concerns, with the business decisions of another company.

Those are three separate topics, and if you could separate them, you wouldn't be so confused about all of them. You also need to separate generalities from blanket statements — you need to learn to separate, period.
And I think you aren't seeing the whole picture. Those are all very much related. As a customer, I am right in the middle of where those three areas converge and I should be allowed to feel and express my frustration with these practices instead of being subjected to criticism because someone on the internet feels that I threaten the sanctity of their own choices. I still feel like you are the one who is confused, not I. I can't expect you to understand where I am coming from simply because you don't have to.

Quote:
Annoyed about the marketing? Too bad. It's only marketing, and the quality of the products is what it is — as you and I well know. You are not going to change the fact that people respond to marketing.
Yes they do. We can agree on that. Apple and Apogee have teamed up on this one and it's no secret. While they can simply say that it's cheaper and easier to refrain from writing drivers for windows/linux/whatever, I know this to be somewhat untrue. Apple has been known to give large amounts of funding to partner companies in exchange for contractual obligations such as being 'mac only' for periods of time, up to forever. We may or may not see a windows driver set for Duet, but it will most likely come when the Mac sales have died down somewhat in a year or two. We know they will because there simply aren't that many Macs out there compared to PCs and of those Macs, a small percentage being used as DAWs.

It reminds me of the time that Apple created a "supercomputer".. Pure marketing bliss. I know of no less than 3 people who fell for this and were very disappointed when my AMD based computer outperformed them in all aspects. Later, the world saw what was really the case when the testing data was leaked and showed that a single Photoshop filter benchmark was the sole basis for the "supercomputer" status. A freak chance allowed the Power PC processor to execute this filter in an exceptional amount of time, much faster than even the AMD processor of the time but falling very short on all other benchmarks to everything else including the old Cyrix processors.

Quote:
Your own practical concerns — you have the skill set to spec and build and support your own PC's such that that's trivial for you. Because of that, the Mac value proposition is weak — for you. But others don't have your skills.

I could build my own PC's, too — I don't design electronics, but I did run a significant support operation at one point. I decided at some point that it wasn't worth the effort to build my own stuff or even to support it. I don't build my own TV, and I don't see why I should build my own computer. It's just a computer. Buy from a vendor with a good support reputation, stock with a ton of RAM — done. I spend my time worrying about other things — that's a choice.
If TV parts were as modular as PC parts then you could easily build your own. Most inverters for the backlights will drive a range of bulbs these days, the LCD connections are becoming more and more generic between manufacturers, the driver boards are becoming much more simplified as discrete parts are being absorbed into ASIC designs, and the power supplies are being modularized. I've repaired LCD panels with parts from different brands before.

And you are right, it's just a computer and Macs are no different than PCs these days. The only difference is marketing and price.

Quote:
Since I have come to be so disinterested in PC construction, I end up with a Mac for music production. Why? Because it's better supported for music production. More high-quality products, more compatibility, better support and more options. For the commercial studio aspect, especially, to use Windows would offer literally no advantages — except better mastering software, I guess — and invite a ton of eye-rolling. You may not have those issues.
I don't see how either is different from the other in any aspect really. You have choices that are better for either PC or Mac, it just depends on what you use and/or what you are allowed to use by the manufacturers.

Quote:
It is a reality of the market that better music production software is available for Mac at this point. There's only two cross-platform systems left — Digidesign support is better on Macs, Steinberg support is better on Windows — you tell me which way the wind is blowing. RME, once a maker of Windows-only products, went full-force into Mac support years ago — they're considered a boutique option for Windows DAWs, but only a good mid-level choice for Macs. Metric-Halo, Apogee — Mac only. Reaper, Sonar — Windows only. Logic, Digital Performer — Mac only.
Soundscape is PC only but SSL is hinting at getting a Mac version of the Mixpander card soon.. Nuendo: both PC and MAC.. Reaper will have a Mac port soon too..

Quote:
You can find threads here where people are complaining bitterly that they have to get an iLok in order to use a demo. All of those people are Windows users. Mac users almost all have an iLok already, for one product or another. They expect to have to pay for software. That's the reality of the market. Mac users would like for everything to be free, but Windows users actually think that everything is free. Again, that's just a generality — not every Mac and Windows user could be described that way.
I payed for my software. Why would I be the only windows user to expect to pay for my software? I don't think I've met a windows DAW user that didn't pay for their software, plugins, etc and I've met a bunch. I just don't see how you can broadly determine that windows users "think" that all software is free, we have to pay for everything just like the Mac users do.

Quote:
But none of this has anything to do with Apogee supporting Windows. You think Duet would be "accepted" in other markets, but you don't know that. I daresay Apogee has studied that very question more than you and I have — and if they really thought "everyone would win" — including Apogee — then of course this already would have happened. But the reality is, you are only you. You are not the Windows market, and believe me, the Windows market sure as **** isn't anything like you, in fact. If it were, Dell and HP would go out of business.
But it does. You keep telling me that windows users are mid-level and Mac users are generally more pro, and that there is much more out there in terms of choices/support for Macs. Why then would Apogee target the mac users with a mid-level product when they are thought of as more pro and obviously have more access to other equipment? Why would they continue to saturate the Mac market with their copious amounts of mid-level gear instead of tapping a 'lesser' supported market? I would think that the windows market would be the place for something like this according to your statements.

Dell and HP have already almost gone out of business. Most of them make their money on services, parts and support rather than hardware. You ever wonder why a printer cartridge costs more than the printer sometimes?
Old 16th June 2008
  #921
Lives for gear
 
Dysanfel's Avatar
Since the Duet works under XP Parallels, I bet it could be PC compatible if someone wants to write a driver.
Old 16th June 2008
  #922
Lives for gear
 
jslevin's Avatar
Over and over again, you misquote and misconstrue. You are hell-bent on seeing this is a platform struggle.

There is no struggle. There's just companies trying to do what makes them the most profitable, and individual consumers deciding what represents the value that they want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svart View Post
As a customer, I am right in the middle of where those three areas converge and I should be allowed to feel and express my frustration with these practices instead of being subjected to criticism because someone on the internet feels that I threaten the sanctity of their own choices.
You could never, ever be a threat to my choices. I'm fine with my choices — you're the one who's upset.

I would never criticize you for expressing your frustration — though I might advise you that it's counterproductive. This discussion centers around your criticism of Apogee for not supporting Windows. I feel that criticism is unwarranted and baseless, and everything else I've said points back to that.

You are of course free to have whatever feelings you want and express them. I would agree, in fact, that this entire back-and-forth has been about your feelings, and little else.

Quote:
I can't expect you to understand where I am coming from simply because you don't have to.
As far as I can tell, I understand exactly where you're coming from. You have not really corrected any of my suppositions. It's just that I also understand where Apogee is coming from.

Quote:
Apple has been known to give large amounts of funding to partner companies in exchange for contractual obligations such as being 'mac only' for periods of time, up to forever.
a. Has been known to? Let's see a link.

b. So what if they did? The entire Windows monopoly has been built on anti-competitive (thus anti-consumer) practices far more pervasive and impactful than this. Until and unless Apple has a monopoly, as defined by statute, deals like that are fair game.

c. This just reinforces the point, your options would be better if you were using a Mac.

Quote:
We may or may not see a windows driver set for Duet, but it will most likely come when the Mac sales have died down somewhat in a year or two.
Maybe so, maybe not. Lots of stuff doesn't come out for Windows anymore, and pricey DAW stuff tops the list.

Quote:
We know they will because there simply aren't that many Macs out there compared to PCs and of those Macs, a small percentage being used as DAWs.
Lots of supposition, half of it wrong ... I won't even go into the details. The question is, what is Apple's market share among DAW users who would consider a two-channel interface for $500? No other questions matter, none.

Quote:
It reminds me of the time that Apple created a "supercomputer".. Pure marketing bliss.
Again, more bitterness over marketing, clouding your mind. You don't need me, you need Yoda. This has nothing to do with Apogee's decisions or your decisions.

Quote:
If TV parts were as modular as PC parts then you could easily build your own.
Yes, but why would I? That's the point. You always run away from the part of the concept that is actually relevant.

Quote:
And you are right, it's just a computer and Macs are no different than PCs these days. The only difference is marketing and price.
No ... the significant differences are software and support. As a build-my-own guy, you apparently are oblivious to this.

Quote:
You have choices that are better for either PC or Mac, it just depends on what you use and/or what you are allowed to use by the manufacturers.
Yes! Exactly!

Quote:
Soundscape is PC only but SSL is hinting at getting a Mac version of the Mixpander card soon.. Nuendo: both PC and MAC.. Reaper will have a Mac port soon too..
Funny how you obsess over Apple's low market share, yet assign Real Significance to fringe systems which very, very few pros are using.

Quote:
Why would I be the only windows user to expect to pay for my software? I don't think I've met a windows DAW user that didn't pay for their software, plugins, etc and I've met a bunch.
Well, then you've never met the vast majority of Windows DAW users.

Will somebody please help get this guy into reality here?

Quote:
You keep telling me that windows users are mid-level and Mac users are generally more pro,
Nope, I did not say that. I said the more pro systems tend to favor Macs, but relatively few users are pro on either platform, and many cannot really even be called mid-range. It also depends whether we're going to count GarageBand, due to which tens of thousands of totally unskilled people are technically Mac DAW users now, which tilts everything.

Quote:
and that there is much more out there in terms of choices/support for Macs.
Well, you know this, it's what you're complaining about.

Quote:
Why then would Apogee target the mac users with a mid-level product when they are thought of as more pro and obviously have more access to other equipment?
Because your whole premise is wrong, and I never said that.

Just because most pros use Macs doesn't mean most Mac users are pro. Two totally, totally different statements. The high-end of Mac users are pros, but the bulk of them are prosumer and consumer. The number of Windows users that are pros is pretty tiny, but there are many Windows prosumer users, while the great bulk of Windows users are consumers with the cheapest possible hardware — both for their PC and the rest of their system.

Quote:
Why would they continue to saturate the Mac market with their copious amounts of mid-level gear instead of tapping a 'lesser' supported market?
Because (for the 10th time) Mac users are more willing to spend money. The proof of this is: THEY BOUGHT A MAC.

Quote:
You ever wonder why a printer cartridge costs more than the printer sometimes?
No. I figured it out a long time ago.

JSL
Old 19th June 2008
  #923
Lives for gear
 
desotoslo's Avatar
 

Question

Hi Duet'ers

Do any of you have experience in mating the duet with passive monitors?

I'm really interested to hear your stories...

Thanks thumbsup
Old 19th June 2008
  #924
@jslevin, you are of course right about every single issue you addressed in your previous post(s).

I admire your patience and persistence, but have you ever considered this:

Old 19th June 2008
  #925
Lives for gear
 
Farout's Avatar
 

... so .... from those of you who have heard / used the Duet, would you say it is worth the $500??

I have to decide on a FireWire interface with Pre's, etc.

Thanks
Old 19th June 2008
  #926
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farout View Post
... so .... from those of you who have heard / used the Duet, would you say it is worth the $500??

I have to decide on a FireWire interface with Pre's, etc.

Thanks
Buy it. it's awesome and works great! There was one bug that I noticed on a new MBPro when 10.5.1/2 was new, but all is great. (and sounds really good!)
Old 19th June 2008
  #927
Lives for gear
 
inthere's Avatar
 

The Duet has better sound quality than any audio interface under $1500. It has better mic pres than any audio interface under $1500. I've compared it to interfaces by Presonus, Focusrite, TC Electronics, M-Audio, and Motu.
Old 19th June 2008
  #928
Lives for gear
 
Vocalvoodoo's Avatar
 

I'd say it's more than worth the $500. Although it's kind of like LE software in the sense that they give you just enough of a taste that makes you want to buy an Ensemble.
Old 19th June 2008
  #929
Lives for gear
 
crufty's Avatar
yes, love the duet. have not done many tests over others. it's bigger then you think though, if you have never seen it.
Old 19th June 2008
  #930
Lives for gear
 
Farout's Avatar
 

Thanks, fellas.

I appreciate your opinion.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
overclock / Gearslutz Secondhand Gear Classifieds
4
slowjett / Gearslutz Secondhand Gear Classifieds
2

Forum Jump
Forum Jump