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Avid Carbon
Old 19th November 2020
  #1
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Avid Carbon

I am shocked to not find a thread about Avid's new interface and platform (or did I miss it?)

I think it has great potential for small studio or serious home artist application
Any body anticipating getting this unit or have been one of the beta testers ??
Old 20th November 2020
  #2
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🎧 10 years
Carbon

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
I am shocked to not find a thread about Avid's new interface and platform (or did I miss it?)

I think it has great potential for small studio or serious home artist application
Any body anticipating getting this unit or have been one of the beta testers ??
Check new product alert thread. Sound on Sound just reviewed it as well. You said it exactly, home or third room set up. Not what large track count HDX clients were looking for. However it competes with UA gear and introduces new users to Avid DSP partners.
Old 20th November 2020 | Show parent
  #3
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Originally Posted by bzone View Post
Check new product alert thread. Sound on Sound just reviewed it as well. You said it exactly, home or third room set up. Not what large track count HDX clients were looking for. However it competes with UA gear and introduces new users to Avid DSP partners.
Thanks I did browse the new product alerts but I must have missed it. Yes I have watched about 3 hours worth of reviews and Avid webinars about including SOS..
Yes It is certainly not meant to displace HDX, as you say only to bring the DSP tracking world to smaller track count customers, call it an "In between product" target market. And with a much more seamless and integrated system than the competition .

The rumor coming out of one of the webinars is that the tech may filter into full HDX looking to give more efficient and co using DSP and Native together but that is looking down the road.
Old 20th November 2020
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I think it’s a great concept - exactly what’s needed for a modern overdub/mix space. We don’t need massive amounts of dsp here, just a low latency channel with plugins.

Of course, it’ll be priced too high...

And there’s finally autotune dsp again too!
Old 20th November 2020 | Show parent
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I think it’s a great concept - exactly what’s needed for a modern overdub/mix space. We don’t need massive amounts of dsp here, just a low latency channel with plugins.

Of course, it’ll be priced too high...

And there’s finally autotune dsp again too!
Well I don't think there is any question that Avid Hardware is at a premium.

For example a new Apollo xp8 16x22 Thunder bolt 3 (probably the most apples to apples comparison) is $700 less and it supports surround monitoring (I personally don't do surround but that is a consideration for many) The problem for me with UAD is you are then dealing with 2 layers of software. And if like me you are a died in the wool PT user, it is not near as seamless or simple (which to me personally is worth money)

Within just Avid I find it interesting that a new Avid Omni and HDN Thunderbolt PCIe Box /with Ultimate , system is $1500 more than a Carbon

And if the clocking , conversion and mic pre's are as good as claimed, I think it will also hold a lot of interest also for small groups and serious single artists, and even many small recording "project studio" operations as well ...
Old 20th November 2020
  #6
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🎧 5 years
Does this not require a current PT HD license (and recurring cost) and aax dsp plugins to use the dsp? To me this seems priced out of most uses, maybe the pro engineer that works from home or spare studio room but do not see this making into a lot of home studios. 🤷🏻‍♂️
Old 20th November 2020 | Show parent
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kslight View Post
Does this not require a current PT HD license (and recurring cost) and aax dsp plugins to use the dsp? To me this seems priced out of most uses, maybe the pro engineer that works from home or spare studio room but do not see this making into a lot of home studios. ������������‍♂️
Well in reverse order. Yes and kind of obvious not for most home studios, for that matter even $1000 interfaces don't make it in to most "Home studios" most home studios are populated with $200 to $400 dollar entry level interfaces.

This is targeted at the arguably relatively small number of serious home amateurs and the much bigger number of home professional , engineers, composers, producers, single artists, small bands/ensembles, small project studios, and as psycho_monkey pointed out professional mix/overdub houses. So that's no doubt a market Avid feels it c an be market to, and it's pretty big world wide.

No..... (read FAQ link) It can run on PT regular or Ultimate (HD) BUT It comes with a brand new "special" regular one year PT license (that is perpetual) but includes one year of updates (which you could at that time opt out after the one year and it will stay usable at that level ) , The bundled license comes with the standard PT AAX plugins (all of which have AAX DSP versions ) it also comes with Avid Complete Plugin Bundle (all of which have DSP versions) and some other 3 rd party plugins, which all but one, have DSP versions.. And you also can run any 3 party AXX plugins that have DSP versions (some 300 or so) .

Yes correct the plugins have to be an AAX DSP version to run in DSP "mode" but you can also run any Avid or 3rd party AAX non DSP plugins in non DSP mode (natively) simultaneously with running DSP plugins in DSP mode ( That's why they call it a Hybrid system ) it gives you the best of both worlds DSP and Native

So price is subjective and personal but objectively any high end interface with 8 high end analog mic pre's, 8 channels of high end A/D --DA conversion, high end clocking , 16 channels of ADAT * channels analog DB 25 I/O connections 4 channels of High Z instrument inputs and 4 independently discrete high end headphone outputs , is going to be expensive plain and simple .
Old 21st November 2020 | Show parent
  #8
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Well I don't think there is any question that Avid Hardware is at a premium.

For example a new Apollo xp8 16x22 Thunder bolt 3 (probably the most apples to apples comparison) is $700 less and it supports surround monitoring (I personally don't do surround but that is a consideration for many) The problem for me with UAD is you are then dealing with 2 layers of software. And if like me you are a died in the wool PT user, it is not near as seamless or simple (which to me personally is worth money)

Within just Avid I find it interesting that a new Avid Omni and HDN Thunderbolt PCIe Box /with Ultimate , system is $1500 more than a Carbon

And if the clocking , conversion and mic pre's are as good as claimed, I think it will also hold a lot of interest also for small groups and serious single artists, and even many small recording "project studio" operations as well ...
Good point about the price. The Omni is intended as part of a scalable system though right - Carbon is standalone.

I personally feel Carbon might be the end of HD Native - how many people need large numbers of IO but no HDX processing?

Having the option of a low latency tracking mixer would be good for non PT users (it's not going to appeal to those who bounce between software is it?).
Old 21st November 2020 | Show parent
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Good point about the price. The Omni is intended as part of a scalable system though right - Carbon is standalone.

I personally feel Carbon might be the end of HD Native - how many people need large numbers of IO but no HDX processing?

Having the option of a low latency tracking mixer would be good for non PT users (it's not going to appeal to those who bounce between software is it?).
Yes aimed at those who use PT exclusively or primarily. (which is me) I have Studio One and Reason. Only really used Reason for it's VI's slaved to PT but because I have Reason 8 and which needs Rewire and I can't open Reason/Rewire/PT sessions on the newer PT version it's basically defunct unless I upgrade Reason

And the only thing I use S1 for running it for FX and using my studio system and sound for participating in a virtual open mic in the Zoom Meeting app.


Yes I can see it eventually ending HDN. Avid seemed to be moving that way when they dropped HDN cards only option .
The Omni is scalable some what in that it can used with the other Avid I/O's and so far the Carbon can't, there is a second ethernet port so who knows what the future may bring.

Another thought about price (within the world of Avid only ) is you get what is essentially 1/2 of an HDX card (8 chips vs 18) which would be about $1800 in value in the box also, ... so price wise for Avid, it may well be the most unit/features value per dollar, in the line up.

Last edited by KevWind; 21st November 2020 at 05:59 PM..
Old 23rd November 2020
  #10
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HD native still have higher potential than this however with current hdx prices even at brand new, native seems irrelevant. I find Carbon to be the perfect answer to the very missed 00x line up. I dont recommend buying new, these will surely be half price on ebay at some point.
Old 24th November 2020 | Show parent
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by projektk View Post
HD native still have higher potential than this however with current hdx prices even at brand new, native seems irrelevant. I find Carbon to be the perfect answer to the very missed 00x line up. I dont recommend buying new, these will surely be half price on ebay at some point.
Hum ? your post is not very clear .... Lets dissect it

Quote:
HD native still have higher potential than this
What does that mean ? More Potential for what ? I currently have HD Native, and do not have a clue what you are referring too??????

Quote:
however with current hdx prices even at brand new, native seems irrelevant.
huh this seems contradictory to your first sentence
If HD native has "higher potential " (what ever that means ). then it would seem that would make it relevant ?

Quote:
I find Carbon to be the perfect answer to the very missed 00x line up.
Other than having 8 mic pre's like the 00' units , Carbon is nothing like the 00 Digi line of PTLE interfaces, trust me I had a a Digi 002 console ,,,,,Not even remotely close.


Quote:
I dont recommend buying new, these will surely be half price on ebay at some point.
Well if you can wait until "someday", then they will probably show up used. Especially if people don't really know what they are actually buying, and do not understand what they are actually suited for, or how that might relate their personal needs or situation .

But I am guessing not a lot people who are seriously contemplating and can afford a $4k interface, (probably understand exactly what it will and won't do,) and will not fall into that category.
And thus there will likely not be, a lot of used units come on the market for at least a few years or more. BUT hey I could be wrong .

Last edited by KevWind; 24th November 2020 at 01:46 AM..
Old 24th November 2020
  #12
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I mean you can have more io with native and ultimate. Carbon is a closed platform that wont let you daisy chain like apollo. I imagine the 2nd AVB port is actually going to come in handy with a new pcie/thunderbolt hdx like card that is primarily avb with maybe one digi link port. Time will tell.

I didn't mean carbon is like the 00x product line just that it's a spiritual successor, similar to Ensemble TB. With dsp features in line with apollo.

I would like to add even at $4000 it's a much smarter buy than an x8p considering the cost difference between many aax dsp plugs versus the uad options. Will consider a Carbon once it's on windows. I'm on mac and windows and I did not invest into a Twin until TB worked on both platforms. When carbon works on windows I will look at used vs new for sure. I dont need the IO demand of hd native or hdx I was just stating my opinion.
Old 24th November 2020 | Show parent
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by projektk View Post
I mean you can have more io with native and ultimate. Carbon is a closed platform that wont let you daisy chain like apollo. I imagine the 2nd AVB port is actually going to come in handy with a new pcie/thunderbolt hdx like card that is primarily avb with maybe one digi link port. Time will tell.
This is the one thing that stops it ending the HD Native product I suppose.
Old 24th November 2020 | Show parent
  #14
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by projektk View Post
I mean you can have more io with native and ultimate. Carbon is a closed platform that wont let you daisy chain like apollo. I imagine the 2nd AVB port is actually going to come in handy with a new pcie/thunderbolt hdx like card that is primarily avb with maybe one digi link port. Time will tell.

I didn't mean carbon is like the 00x product line just that it's a spiritual successor, similar to Ensemble TB. With dsp features in line with apollo.

I would like to add even at $4000 it's a much smarter buy than an x8p considering the cost difference between many aax dsp plugs versus the uad options. Will consider a Carbon once it's on windows. I'm on mac and windows and I did not invest into a Twin until TB worked on both platforms. When carbon works on windows I will look at used vs new for sure. I dont need the IO demand of hd native or hdx I was just stating my opinion.
Hey every body is entitled to an opinion, but we are all different with different needs and perspectives. The trick is making it clear in ones posts.

And so, ok the I/O capability of HDN is more clear on your definition of "more potential" .

Yes the 2 nd ethernet AVB port does portend speculation for the future which could mean expandability/daisy chaining ???


Yes the 8 pre's on a unit that does not need Ultimate is a welcome addition to the Avid hardware line up . And I guessing Windows compatibility will come .
Old 28th November 2020
  #15
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Humm it appears moving this thread from High End where I opened it (which is what Avid's Carbon interface actually is) . has effectively killed the tread . I realize it is in the New Products forum, I just thought it would be nice to not have to search every time trying to fine there,, Oh well such is life of GS.
Old 28th November 2020 | Show parent
  #16
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Humm it appears moving this thread from High End where I opened it (which is what Avid's Carbon interface actually is) . has effectively killed the tread . I realize it is in the New Products forum, I just thought it would be nice to not have to search every time trying to fine there,, Oh well such is life of GS.
I agree. Seems to me you're paying a lot for a little. The "little" being HDX-like functionality in an 8-A/D box that sounds a little better than a 15-year-old 192 that now streets for $300.
Old 28th November 2020 | Show parent
  #17
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I agree. Seems to me you're paying a lot for a little. The "little" being HDX-like functionality in an 8-A/D box that sounds a little better than a 15-year-old 192 that now streets for $300.
Thanks for replying maybe we can jump start some discussion

To clarify ? You agree that this thread should be in the High End Forum ?

Or, you agree "your paying a lot to get a little" which is totally valid if that is what you think. But I don't think that, so you're not agreeing with what I think, at any rate . .

It is in the end like most audio solutions, a compromise and not suited to every situation. And like most things, in the end, value is eye of the beholder

This just popped up on my radar
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews...o-tools-carbon

Last edited by KevWind; 28th November 2020 at 08:57 PM..
Old 28th November 2020
  #18
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I don't think we need to derail the thread to debate why we think it belongs in a different forum. But I agree with you that it belongs in a different forum.
Old 28th November 2020 | Show parent
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I don't think we need to derail the thread to debate why we think it belongs in a different forum. But I agree with you that it belongs in a different forum.
.We agree,,, it is hardware not software, so being DAW talk seems disconnected
Old 29th November 2020 | Show parent
  #20
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I agree. Seems to me you're paying a lot for a little. The "little" being HDX-like functionality in an 8-A/D box that sounds a little better than a 15-year-old 192 that now streets for $300.
And yet you can still use a 192 with Pro Tools 2020.11 ...
lot's of studios still have 192's
Old 29th November 2020 | Show parent
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
lot's of studios still have 192's
Including mine.
Old 29th November 2020 | Show parent
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
.We agree,,, it is hardware not software, so being DAW talk seems disconnected
Actually, I'm reversing course. Two reasons:

1. Since it incorporates an interface, it will only work with a computer and DAW software. As opposed to, say, a standalone preamp or a compressor or fx device. And in this case it will only work with one kind of DAW software.

2. GS runs on ads, and the sponsors like to be able to target their ads.

So I was wrong at first. Changed my mind.
Old 29th November 2020 | Show parent
  #23
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
.We agree,,, it is hardware not software, so being DAW talk seems disconnected
Interface questions belong in Music Computers - no ifs or buts.

If you want it more in the general “Music Computers” area fine, but you’ll also get a load of off topic “why are you using slo tools” noise as well.
Old 29th November 2020 | Show parent
  #24
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I agree. Seems to me you're paying a lot for a little. The "little" being HDX-like functionality in an 8-A/D box that sounds a little better than a 15-year-old 192 that now streets for $300.
I think you’re missing the workflow benefits - effectively you can run HDX for recording (where it’s of most benefit) without paying HDX prices, without a cue mixer, with easy headphone mixes.

There are downsides - it IS overpriced (of course), without pro tools you lose a lot of the benefits..you’d hope at some point they’d make the system expandable, an IO unit without headphone amps/monitor control makes sense, like the Apollo 16 - but who knows the plans.

After all, you could aim the same criticisms at uad (8io, old chips, features many won’t need, expensive), or apogee (fiddly control software, convoluted FX integration, works better with logic than any other software...it’s a bit like that game where you try to describe your fave movie in as boring a way as possible.
Old 29th November 2020 | Show parent
  #25
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Interface questions belong in Music Computers - no ifs or buts.

If you want it more in the general “Music Computers” area fine, but you’ll also get a load of off topic “why are you using slo tools” noise as well.
Okee Dokee then
Old 30th November 2020
  #26
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After some hours of watching the numerous reviews and webinars on Youtube, as well some written reviews like the one just published from Sound On Sound et.al.

I have decided I am going get a new Carbon. Normally I am disinclined to jump on a brand new product. But like they say "desperate times, desperate measures"

Juss Kiddin' but I had started looking for a new studio computer last year, but was not really interested in going the new Mac Pro route .
I had pretty much decided I wanted to switch to an iMac, but knew I would then need the outboard thunderbolt uint to still use PTHDNative
When Carbon was announced I thought it might be the best solution to get me where I wanted to go and have the least amount of additional hardware ....... . We will see
Old 1st December 2020 | Show parent
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
After some hours of watching the numerous reviews and webinars on Youtube, as well some written reviews like the one just published from Sound On Sound et.al.

I have decided I am going get a new Carbon. Normally I am disinclined to jump on a brand new product. But like they say "desperate times, desperate measures"

Juss Kiddin' but I had started looking for a new studio computer last year, but was not really interested in going the new Mac Pro route .
I had pretty much decided I wanted to switch to an iMac, but knew I would then need the outboard thunderbolt uint to still use PTHDNative
When Carbon was announced I thought it might be the best solution to get me where I wanted to go and have the least amount of additional hardware ....... . We will see
I'm still running an HD Accel system, along with another computer running Vienna Ensemble Pro, where most of the heavy lifting of VI and Sample libraries are handled. My Accel system essentially handles audio and co-mixing duties. I do a lot of mix processing on the VEP side as well. This has worked for me for a very long time. In fact my Mac Pro which runs PT is an early 2009, and still kicking. I'm now at the point of where the OS X on both computers are getting too long in the tooth. I decided to not get on the HDX wave due to having put a very large investment in my Accel system, and decided to run into the ground...of course as long as I can do my work and clients are happy. So nearly 10 years later from when HDX came out, I'm now hearing rumors. That's all I will say about that because rumors are rumors, not facts. But because of this, I'm very hesitant to update my system to one that is nearly 10 years old now, just doesn't seem like a sound move.

I spoke at length with my sales person who I've been using for 12 years now. Carbon is the only thing that has come out of Avid that opened my eyes. One of the main reasons were the converters. Seems like they're top flight, utilizing some pretty cool technology. Being able to use hardware inserts. Multiple headphone outs, small benefit for me but definitely useful. And the HDX side of the system for tracking. Is this a system for studios tracking live bands, probably not. But for studios like mine that focus on Pop and Dance that rely heavily on VI and sample base productions, this might be the next step. I remember when I demoed a Native PT rig when it was released. I blew that up in about 5 minutes. Carbon, with an i9 8 core or M1 etc...on paper should be pretty slamming.

I'm doing a remix entirely in NI Maschine at the moment. I'm running audio, lots of VI's and plugins. I'm running this on an i7 4 core with 16 gigs of ram, and I'm not even showing half way up the CPU meter. And I'm running Multiple Omnisphere's, Fabfilter, and heavy amounts of delays and reverbs etc. I can't imagine that Carbon with a slamming computer should be anything but rocking.

I'm about to pony up for one, I'll report back when I get it all in and up and running. Hopefully other's will chime in. I'm very curious about the latency and running plugins in parallel aspect of the mixer. And ultimately how does it sound?
Old 1st December 2020
  #28
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I am also in need of an interface for a medium sized professional studio and I cannot decide between the Avid Protools Carbon with 24+1 I/O or the Lynx Aurora N interface. the Lynx configuration I am looking at has 4 onboard transparent Mic Pres, 16 channels over ADAT, and 8 Line ins for a total of 28 Ins.

I know the Lynx Aura N does not have any DSP but the converters are transparent and of high quality. I like the idea of the the Avid Carbon but i dont know if the preamps/converters are near the quality of the Lynx converters since I have not gotten the opportunity to use it.
I do like the idea of using plugins for a band/artist's monitor mix aswell as using dsp for mixing but I can also just invest into a UAD Satellite if i want DSP for mixing down the line. Anyone have any suggestions? both are in the 4000 price range

I mainly use Protools and Ableton 10 Suite currently
Old 1st December 2020 | Show parent
  #29
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by engmix View Post
I'm still running an HD Accel system, along with another computer running Vienna Ensemble Pro, where most of the heavy lifting of VI and Sample libraries are handled. My Accel system essentially handles audio and co-mixing duties. I do a lot of mix processing on the VEP side as well. This has worked for me for a very long time. In fact my Mac Pro which runs PT is an early 2009, and still kicking. I'm now at the point of where the OS X on both computers are getting too long in the tooth. I decided to not get on the HDX wave due to having put a very large investment in my Accel system, and decided to run into the ground...of course as long as I can do my work and clients are happy. So nearly 10 years later from when HDX came out, I'm now hearing rumors. That's all I will say about that because rumors are rumors, not facts. But because of this, I'm very hesitant to update my system to one that is nearly 10 years old now, just doesn't seem like a sound move.

I spoke at length with my sales person who I've been using for 12 years now. Carbon is the only thing that has come out of Avid that opened my eyes. One of the main reasons were the converters. Seems like they're top flight, utilizing some pretty cool technology. Being able to use hardware inserts. Multiple headphone outs, small benefit for me but definitely useful. And the HDX side of the system for tracking. Is this a system for studios tracking live bands, probably not. But for studios like mine that focus on Pop and Dance that rely heavily on VI and sample base productions, this might be the next step. I remember when I demoed a Native PT rig when it was released. I blew that up in about 5 minutes. Carbon, with an i9 8 core or M1 etc...on paper should be pretty slamming.

I'm doing a remix entirely in NI Maschine at the moment. I'm running audio, lots of VI's and plugins. I'm running this on an i7 4 core with 16 gigs of ram, and I'm not even showing half way up the CPU meter. And I'm running Multiple Omnisphere's, Fabfilter, and heavy amounts of delays and reverbs etc. I can't imagine that Carbon with a slamming computer should be anything but rocking.

I'm about to pony up for one, I'll report back when I get it all in and up and running. Hopefully other's will chime in. I'm very curious about the latency and running plugins in parallel aspect of the mixer. And ultimately how does it sound?
Yes the OS thing (I am currently on Mojave 10.14.6,,, which I could probably just stay at for a couple more years) BUT because my current machine is not qualified for Catalina ,, and was one of factors prompting me to consider a new computer .
I have decided and ordered a Current iMac 8 core intel 10th gen, i7
I know everybody says wait and get a 2021 iMac with th M1 chip But the rumor is that will probably a 24" and the question is when in 2021 that will actually happen . And as you note that the current 27 iMac will probably be way more than I need and likely supported for at least another 5 years ....

Last edited by KevWind; 1st December 2020 at 03:46 PM..
Old 3rd December 2020 | Show parent
  #30
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Yes the OS thing (I am currently on Mojave 10.14.6,,, which I could probably just stay at for a couple more years) BUT because my current machine is not qualified for Catalina ,, and was one of factors prompting me to consider a new computer .
I have decided and ordered a Current iMac 8 core intel 10th gen, i7
I know everybody says wait and get a 2021 iMac with th M1 chip But the rumor is that will probably a 24" and the question is when in 2021 that will actually happen . And as you note that the current 27 iMac will probably be way more than I need and likely supported for at least another 5 years ....
I plan on getting a new old Macbook pro as my next upgrade..I wouldn't go to M1 for a few years, and i'll need a new computer before that
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