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To all (current and former) owners of EMU 1616m (or 1212m)
Old 27th July 2020
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
To all (current and former) owners of EMU 1616m (or 1212m)

Hi everyone,

This goes for all -current and former- owners of EMU 1616m (or 1212m, 1820 etc).

I have an EMU 1616m since 2007 and I think that, apart from the stock preamps that I don't use anymore, it stills serves me fine (Win7 64bit / Cubase 10). But from time to time, I'm thinking about upgrading for more I/O and hopefully for better RTL performance. And, of course, if I want to go for Win10, I'll have to leave the EMU behind.

So I wonder if getting an RME will be an improvement regarding conversion.
(I choose RME due to its low RTL, the rock solid drivers and generally being future-proof).

All these years I run into posts/reviews/opinions that praise the audio quality of the EMU. Many people who had to replace it, due to driver problems, didn't notice any sonic improvement -others felt it was a step-down.
And I think that it's pretty weird that an old -and rather low budget- interface still competes with newer and pricier interfaces.

So I'd like to hear about your experience:

- If you swapped it for a newer interface, have you noticed any improvement regarding conversion?

- If you still use it, did you have the chance to compare it with other interfaces (again regarding the sound quality)?

Last edited by The Tenant; 27th July 2020 at 08:31 PM..
Old 27th July 2020
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I went from 1212M PCI to RME HDSPe AIO. With regards to latency performance it was like shifting next gear, where I was able to run 128 buffer, it worked at 64, when it needed 256, I was able to run 128. Of course when a project was already capped by CPU performance and large buffer like 512 or more was necessary, then an interface wasn't really involved.

So yes, it helps, but particular project structure a overall system performance can also play its role.

Michal
Old 27th July 2020
  #3
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Thanks a lot for the answer.
Do you use its analog output and if so, have you noticed any improvement regarding conversion?
Old 27th July 2020 | Show parent
  #4
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tenant ➡️
Thanks a lot for the answer.
Do you use its analog output and if so, have you noticed any improvement regarding conversion?
My main monitoring DAC is connected via AES, but I use analog I/Os to drive my headphone amp and to capture signal from external mic pres.
I had both cards in previous DAW computer simultaneously for some time and tried that, but to be honest I haven't really experienced any worthwhile changes after level matching, performance is about the same, also headroom (EMU had 20 dBu, RME is 19 dBu). Both sounds rather good to me and I haven't really felt, it's a bottleneck at this system (given the rest of it, compared to say mastering room at work with full-range monitors, external converters etc.). So I take it as absolutely adequate to what's necessary to do there.

Michal
Old 27th July 2020
  #5
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
I see... Thanks again!
Old 1st August 2020
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tenant ➡️
Hi everyone,

This goes for all -current and former- owners of EMU 1616m (or 1212m, 1820 etc).

I have an EMU 1616m since 2007 and I think that, apart from the stock preamps that I don't use anymore, it stills serves me fine (Win7 64bit / Cubase 10). But from time to time, I'm thinking about upgrading for more I/O and hopefully for better RTL performance. And, of course, if I want to go for Win10, I'll have to leave the EMU behind.

So I wonder if getting an RME will be an improvement regarding conversion.
(I choose RME due to its low RTL, the rock solid drivers and generally being future-proof).

All these years I run into posts/reviews/opinions that praise the audio quality of the EMU. Many people who had to replace it, due to driver problems, didn't notice any sonic improvement -others felt it was a step-down.
And I think that it's pretty weird that an old -and rather low budget- interface still competes with newer and pricier interfaces.

So I'd like to hear about your experience:

- If you swapped it for a newer interface, have you noticed any improvement regarding conversion?

- If you still use it, did you have the chance to compare it with other interfaces (again regarding the sound quality)?
I have been running a 1212M which I had in storage for about 8 years, which was installed in an old desktop, that I had stopped using when I moved to laptops for audio (which I now realise was not the wisest decision).

I resorted to using the 1212M (PCI version), about 9 months ago, when I moved up to a more recent desktop, which was definitely several orders of improvement over running an Emu 0404 USB on the laptop (Windows 8, then upgrade to 8.1 then Windows 10 - on the laptop).

For a few months I ran Windows 7 pro, on the new desktop with the 1212M
card, and was very please with the sound, really pleased, but gingerly installed Windows 10 Pro in another disk partition, establishing a dual boot PC.

So I can confirm that the EMU 1212M runs reliably on Windows 10. Absolutely reliably, i.e this PC remains on for weeks and probably over a month without being shut down, - super stable workstation.

But there is a caveat, you need to install the right drivers and audio routing app versions, that are compatible with WIndows 10.

Up until Windows 10 1809 version, once you installed the correct versions of the drivers, in the right order you were ok.

Specifically up to Windows 10 1809 version, you needed :

1. The 2.3 BETA Version of the audio drivers. file name EmuPMX_PCDrv_US_2_30_00_BETA.exe

2. The 2.2 Version of the audio mixing app, file name
EmuPMX_PCApp_US_2_20_00.exe

Ideally install as an administrator account, and it works perfectly, not needing any special tweaks.

You can find these files if you google.

and may also find links to these files, if you google for EMU1616M/1212M and WIndows 10.

But I have had to delay any upgrades by Microsoft Windows version beyond version 1809, cos after this version, the drivers no longer work, and a workaround is needed.

If you wish to install any Windows 10 version higher than 1809, i.e 1903 and above, there is a workaround. I am about to submit to the forced upgrade, having delayed this by about a year, to 1903 version, which will require that I use this workaround.

Links to the workaround, for Windows 10 version 1903 and above, there a a couple of closely related versions, below.

http://theguy.com/Emu/articles/KVR-A...soft-2019.html


https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=529349


From several perspectives, I have been really satisfied with the EMU1212M.

1. Very stable - runs for weeks and months without a need to reboot.

2. I found the sonic quality even more balanced especially in the bass, than the EMU 0404 USB, which is itself highly rated from a subjective listening and objective measurements point of view.

Based on specs, the EMU1212 and its related siblings like the 1616M still represent amazing value, and their rather high used price affirms this. A used EMU1212M costs more than the original purchase price, when I acquired mine about 15 years ago. That's ridiculous, an audio card that has gone up in value after being around for over 15 years...and has been discontinued for about 9 years. That tells you something. I always want to pick up another EMU1212 or 1616M, but find it hard to justify the current high price, for one which comes with all the originally included components(cables, etc), when I know how much these cost almost two decades ago.

FYI, all the reference to Windows 10 or Windows 7 and above is for the 64 bit versions.

So I suggest you do try out the related drivers/process as outlined above.

For line ins/outs the EMU cards are are all superb, with excellent digital connectivity/SPDIF, etc, if you wish to expand your rig, or connect other devices digitally.

Where I think all the EMU devices struggle to compare with modern devices, is in the quality of their preamps. While the EMU 1212M has no preamps, I discovered that the EMU 0404 USB Microphone preamps were not as good as the preamps on an external preamp like the Audient MICO., the EMU preamps were noisier, especially in the latter half of their gain range. The Audient MICO providing a more balanced recording of the source.

I would expect this observation to be applicable to the Preamps on the 1616M.

But some of this is nit picking, If its just a hobby or small studio, these minor negatives, should not stop you from using the preamps on an EMU audio interface. Just something to be aware of if you uses sources that need high preamp gain, such as a Shure SM7B dynamic microphone.

For playing back virtual instruments such as sampled pianos via MIDI, in real time, I get reliable 4.3 milliseconds output latency, @ 48 Khz..using 192 buffer samples. Perfectly adequate.

During mixing, I do not need such low latency, and can bump up the buffers, to ease any strain on the CPU/system, and give myself some more CPU headroom, free from audio glitches.

Round Trip Latency, which would be crucial if for example you use software based effects to process a live guitar, is reliably as low as 8.5 millisecond, 192 sample buffers @ 48Khz.

I love the audio routing features of the Patchmix DSP app, for routing between Windows apps and ASIO apps, .superb, once you understand the mixer.

I do not think any of the RMEs' below about $1300, are a sonic match for the EMU1212M or 1616M., so the only reasons for upgrading from an EMU device would be :

1. To assure compatibility with future Operating system upgrades, as there will not be any new drivers released officially by EMU/Creative for future versions of Windows.

2. Wanting better preamps, for critical recording of acoustic instruments and low level audio.

3. Wanting really low latency, cos at really low latencies, you get more audio glitches from the EMU devices.

I am unlikely to upgrade, unless I find that there are no more reliable workarounds for the audio driver installation on Windows, cos in my case, I use an external preamp for microphone level inputs.
Old 8th August 2020 | Show parent
  #7
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Hey OK1, thank you for your detailed response!

Quote:
Originally Posted by OK1 ➡️
I can confirm that the EMU 1212M runs reliably on Windows 10. Absolutely reliably, i.e this PC remains on for weeks and probably over a month without being shut down, - super stable workstation.

But there is a caveat, you need to install the right drivers and audio routing app versions, that are compatible with WIndows 10.

Up until Windows 10 1809 version, once you installed the correct versions of the drivers, in the right order you were ok.

Specifically up to Windows 10 1809 version, you needed :

1. The 2.3 BETA Version of the audio drivers. file name EmuPMX_PCDrv_US_2_30_00_BETA.exe

2. The 2.2 Version of the audio mixing app, file name
EmuPMX_PCApp_US_2_20_00.exe

Ideally install as an administrator account, and it works perfectly, not needing any special tweaks.

You can find these files if you google.

and may also find links to these files, if you google for EMU1616M/1212M and WIndows 10.

But I have had to delay any upgrades by Microsoft Windows version beyond version 1809, cos after this version, the drivers no longer work, and a workaround is needed.

If you wish to install any Windows 10 version higher than 1809, i.e 1903 and above, there is a workaround. I am about to submit to the forced upgrade, having delayed this by about a year, to 1903 version, which will require that I use this workaround.

Links to the workaround, for Windows 10 version 1903 and above, there a a couple of closely related versions, below.

http://theguy.com/Emu/articles/KVR-A...soft-2019.html


https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=529349
Yes, the guys in this KVR thread have been doing a great job in keeping E-MU alive. They've been a great help for me from time to time all these years (especially since the E-MU Production Forum was shut down).

Quote:
Originally Posted by OK1 ➡️
Where I think all the EMU devices struggle to compare with modern devices, is in the quality of their preamps. While the EMU 1212M has no preamps, I discovered that the EMU 0404 USB Microphone preamps were not as good as the preamps on an external preamp like the Audient MICO., the EMU preamps were noisier, especially in the latter half of their gain range. The Audient MICO providing a more balanced recording of the source.

I would expect this observation to be applicable to the Preamps on the 1616M.
Yes, the stock preamps are on the dull side and not particularly detailed. I'm now using a WA73eq and that made a huge difference in my recordings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OK1 ➡️
For playing back virtual instruments such as sampled pianos via MIDI, in real time, I get reliable 4.3 milliseconds output latency, @ 48 Khz..using 192 buffer samples. Perfectly adequate.

During mixing, I do not need such low latency, and can bump up the buffers, to ease any strain on the CPU/system, and give myself some more CPU headroom, free from audio glitches.

Round Trip Latency, which would be crucial if for example you use software based effects to process a live guitar, is reliably as low as 8.5 millisecond, 192 sample buffers @ 48Khz.
My experience is a little bit different: The lowest latency I can get is 6-7 ms, so the RTL is about 12-13, which is fine in many occasions (perhaps I'm used to it), but I can achieve that only in very light projects, without many vsts and effects. I have an i5 3570K PC (dual boot, no internet, optimized etc). Maybe that's a bottleneck in performance? Someone said me that i5s were not so good for audio, but I didn't find any more info about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OK1 ➡️
I do not think any of the RMEs' below about $1300, are a sonic match for the EMU1212M or 1616M.
AFAIK, all modern RME interfaces have practically the same sound regarding AD/DA, no matter the price. But, whatever the case is, I'm thinking about the RME UFX II or UFX+
Old 30th August 2020 | Show parent
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tenant ➡️
Hey OK1, thank you for your detailed response!



Yes, the guys in this KVR thread have been doing a great job in keeping E-MU alive. They've been a great help for me from time to time all these years (especially since the E-MU Production Forum was shut down).



Yes, the stock preamps are on the dull side and not particularly detailed. I'm now using a WA73eq and that made a huge difference in my recordings.




My experience is a little bit different: The lowest latency I can get is 6-7 ms, so the RTL is about 12-13, which is fine in many occasions (perhaps I'm used to it), but I can achieve that only in very light projects, without many vsts and effects. I have an i5 3570K PC (dual boot, no internet, optimized etc). Maybe that's a bottleneck in performance? Someone said me that i5s were not so good for audio, but I didn't find any more info about that.



AFAIK, all modern RME interfaces have practically the same sound regarding AD/DA, no matter the price. But, whatever the case is, I'm thinking about the RME UFX II or UFX+
The most recent versions of Windows, from about 2019, have created a change in the survival potential of the EMU audio interfaces. So I have had to modify my opinion on these devices.

As much as I really appreciate the value of the 1212M, I have to submit to its increasing obsolescence. As good as it is from a sonic perspective, and for now it serves me well, the lack of official support, especially in newer versions of Windows 10, has become quite a concern.

I wish I could continue to use my 1212M forever, but sadly I will need to retire it one day. A very sad day, cos this is such a great reliable device, bought mine in about 2003 or 2004. so I've had it for 16 years, and it sounds pristine, super reliable, runs stably for months, with my computer on and no shutdowns for sometimes over two months - non stop. Simply remarkable audio interface.

So its really a case of when not if.

What are the options, and when the time comes to retire the device, for me it would be :

1. Some cheap and cheerful Focusrite USB audio interface like the Scarlett 4i4 gen 3. But does the job. Not my preferred option as I have enjoyed good, clearly above average, sonics from the EMU0404 USB and EMU1212M PCI.

2. Something better like the MOTU M4. If I want to stay in the budget prosumer range, which is what the EMU1212M was, a budget device with pro specs. The MOTU M4 adds very decent preamps that will not be the limitation in any recording scenario especially that of a home studio/low cost professional studio, a much needed headphone output, while retaining great specs, and low latency, even lower than the 1212M/1616M devices, for not too much money, over USB2. There are some minor concerns though about early faults in the MOTU M2 and M4, so if one buys one should check thoroughly to ensure one did not get a dud device. For me - I do not need anything more, especially as I also have some other preamps. like an Audient MICO.

3. Something in the $500 to $700 price range from RME, or MOTU. Like the Babyface Pro FS, which is a pretty decent device sonically and comes with the legendary performance, support etc, etce of RME. Superb if you need something portable.

4. Something rack or table placed, like the higher end RME or MOTU devices. costing typically $1,000 +

But before I give up on the 1212M, I'll try out all the workarounds, until the day comes when there are no more workarounds for current or future Window 10 versions.
Old 31st August 2020
  #9
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
I had both the 1212M and the 0404usb. I loved both but they have been long-since retired. I now use Focusrite Clarett 4Pre and a Scarlett 4i4 for remote recording. The 4Pre is amazing and the Scarlett is far better than previous versions. I find I'm not missing my EMU's at all.
Old 5th September 2020 | Show parent
  #10
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by OK1 ➡️
What are the options, and when the time comes to retire the device, for me it would be :

1. Some cheap and cheerful Focusrite USB audio interface like the Scarlett 4i4 gen 3. But does the job. Not my preferred option as I have enjoyed good, clearly above average, sonics from the EMU0404 USB and EMU1212M PCI.

2. Something better like the MOTU M4. If I want to stay in the budget prosumer range, which is what the EMU1212M was, a budget device with pro specs. The MOTU M4 adds very decent preamps that will not be the limitation in any recording scenario especially that of a home studio/low cost professional studio, a much needed headphone output, while retaining great specs, and low latency, even lower than the 1212M/1616M devices, for not too much money, over USB2. There are some minor concerns though about early faults in the MOTU M2 and M4, so if one buys one should check thoroughly to ensure one did not get a dud device. For me - I do not need anything more, especially as I also have some other preamps. like an Audient MICO.

3. Something in the $500 to $700 price range from RME, or MOTU. Like the Babyface Pro FS, which is a pretty decent device sonically and comes with the legendary performance, support etc, etce of RME. Superb if you need something portable.

4. Something rack or table placed, like the higher end RME or MOTU devices. costing typically $1,000 +
OK1, thanks for all the recommendations. Yeah, it's a pity that EMU's life is gonna end sooner or later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaka ➡️
I had both the 1212M and the 0404usb. I loved both but they have been long-since retired. I now use Focusrite Clarett 4Pre and a Scarlett 4i4 for remote recording. The 4Pre is amazing and the Scarlett is far better than previous versions. I find I'm not missing my EMU's at all.
Do you say that in terms of sonic quality also? Don't you miss the AD/DA of the 1212M?
Old 5th September 2020
  #11
Lives for gear
 
mamm7215's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
You could try to find a used TC Konnekt48. That’s what I went to after my 1616M. Never missed the Emu with the Konnekt. It’s amazing any 1212 or 1616s still operate, power caps were known to go in these over time.
Old 5th September 2020 | Show parent
  #12
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamm7215 ➡️
It’s amazing any 1212 or 1616s still operate, power caps were known to go in these over time.
Yeah, mine is still running smooth, after 13 years.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Old 6th September 2020
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Farshad's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I still use my EMU 0404 PCI in my older PC with Windows 7. I use that computer as a standalone spectrum analyzer and level meter in my studio.

Before that, for years, it was my main soundcard with and without an Apogee Rosetta 200 as my main converted connected via SPDIF (EMU was synced to the Apogee).

Al along, It has been a Great performer and always sounded great.

Hope this helps
Old 1 week ago
  #14
Here for the gear
 
Hello,

I have some issues with my emu 1616m microdock, i hope you guys could advise me what to do.
Currently a win 10 system is working perfectly with emu 1212m PCIe that I use for VST instrument (the ASIO software is Hauptwerk virtual pipe organ).
I recently bought a 1616m cardbus+expresscard system, because for multichannel system I wanted to add more line outs.
I now want to use the 1010 PCIe card with the 1616m microdock. I installed the drivers with the ClubHouseKey's modification for win 10 usage. It seems to be successful, and the system seems to be working, but I have very low sound volume coming out from the speakers on every channel (Behringer truth b2031a). I have good signals on ASIO channels and on main mix in Patchmix, I also tried to send ASIO 1/2, 3/4, 5/6 outs to the corresponding Dock line outs, but the situation is the same. If I turn everything up (until frequent clipping) I can only hear a normal volume from speakers, and interestingly without noticable noise.
Could you help me what can be the problem and what can I do?

Many thanks!
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #15
Lives for gear
 
mamm7215's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterfiabigron ➡️
Hello,

I have some issues with my emu 1616m microdock, i hope you guys could advise me what to do.
Currently a win 10 system is working perfectly with emu 1212m PCIe that I use for VST instrument (the ASIO software is Hauptwerk virtual pipe organ).
I recently bought a 1616m cardbus+expresscard system, because for multichannel system I wanted to add more line outs.
I now want to use the 1010 PCIe card with the 1616m microdock. I installed the drivers with the ClubHouseKey's modification for win 10 usage. It seems to be successful, and the system seems to be working, but I have very low sound volume coming out from the speakers on every channel (Behringer truth b2031a). I have good signals on ASIO channels and on main mix in Patchmix, I also tried to send ASIO 1/2, 3/4, 5/6 outs to the corresponding Dock line outs, but the situation is the same. If I turn everything up (until frequent clipping) I can only hear a normal volume from speakers, and interestingly without noticable noise.
Could you help me what can be the problem and what can I do?

Many thanks!
Are the outputs set to +4 or -10db? That may be one thing.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #16
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamm7215 ➡️
Are the outputs set to +4 or -10db? That may be one thing.
I did with both +4db and -10db, but in all cases the volume is far away from acceptable. I checked the EDI cable and the 1010PCIe card, those are functioning perfectly. I also tried the system from a laptop (win 7) with the cardbus card. The same issue there. It has to do with the microdock, because from cardbus jack out the volume is perfect, from microdock jack out it is very low (besides microdock, only the power cable was not tested yet by replacing it with an other one).
Is it possible that some of the electrical circuit elements' malfunction in microdock (e.g. capacitors?) cause such phenomenon, that sound level drops to 10-20% of normal (compared to the working 1212 system) without noticable noise?

Last edited by peterfiabigron; 1 week ago at 09:21 AM.. Reason: to make it more comprehensible
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #17
Lives for gear
 
mamm7215's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterfiabigron ➡️
I did with both +4db and -10db, but in all cases the volume is far away from acceptable. I checked the EDI cable and the 1010PCIe card, those are functioning perfectly. I also tried the system from a laptop (win 7) with the cardbus card. The same issue there. It has to do with the microdock, because from cardbus jack out the volume is perfect, from microdock jack out it is very low (besides microdock, only the power cable was not tested yet by replacing it with an other one).
Is it possible that some of the electrical circuit elements' malfunction in microdock (e.g. capacitors?) cause such phenomenon, that sound level drops to 10-20% of normal (compared to the working 1212 system) without noticable noise?
Yes it may be this. These are known for failing like this when they get old.
Old 1 week ago
  #18
Here for the gear
 
Ok, thanks for the suggestion. I will give it a try.
Old 1 week ago
  #19
yuk
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
I'm still using the E-MU 1820M. About 10 years ago, I replaced two 680uf capacitors. Also, some I / O jacks was recently replaced because they were damaged. I measured with RMAA after replacing jacks, I got a stereo crosstalk value that was a little lower than the measurement results available online. I can't here the difference but since it was manufactured 15 years ago, I think that components such as electrolytic capacitors have deteriorated.

When upgrading to a PC with no PCI slots, I thought about changing to a new audio interface like MOTU624, but it seemed that there was almost no big difference in functionality and performance, so I continue to use 1820m by using a bridge card. The E-MU 1820M is still very useful if multiple line inputs and outputs are needed.
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #20
Here for the gear
 
Hi,

I opened up the 1616m microdock to check capacitors. Interestingly the video which shows how to change those mention 680uF 10V capacitors where I have ~ 220uF 35V capacitors that are seems to be original. Furthermore those are located on the line input part of the card (upper card) and not on the line out card, therefore I'm not sure that it should be the problem or why it is different from the one in the video.
Furthermore, when it comes to capacitors problem, everybody reports noise, clipping issues, but I cannot hear any from my card, only the volume is very low. Could it be capacitor problem?
Do you have anything in your mind what could I check/replace other than capacitors? Maybe it is not a capacitor problem but some other part of the system? Is there any possibility to check it? Is it possible that the power adapter has malfunction, or in that case microdock either should work properly or should not work at all?
Old 6 days ago
  #21
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
I loved the sound of 0404 I had for a few years. Fantastic price/performance
Moved on to MADI. Now using RME MADI FX.
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