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Apple to announce ARM chips for all Macs
Old 1st August 2020
  #1051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motomotomoto View Post
One USB C? Dear god why?
USB-C hub if anybody wants or needs more and they can choose a hub that has the specific connections that the person wants/requires.
Old 1st August 2020
  #1052
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyJoe View Post
Rumored specs for the first Apple Silicon MacBook (replacing the Air, essentially).



Note: The A14X is expected to be as powerful as the i9 9980HK, with its 5 nm process node. TSMC's 5nm node packs a whopping 173 transistors onto the chip.
I wonder if we'll see one of these and a MBP replacement by December.
Old 1st August 2020
  #1053
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That's just a rumor of course. There are many rumors always floating about. A few of them might turn out to be somewhat accurate, just due to the sheer volume of various rumors/guesses/made up baloney etc. floating about, but many of them also turn out to be totally inaccurate and worthless.
Old 1st August 2020
  #1054
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyJoe View Post
Rumored specs for the first Apple Silicon MacBook (replacing the Air, essentially).



Note: The A14X is expected to be as powerful as the i9 9980HK, with its 5 nm process node. TSMC's 5nm node packs a whopping 173 transistors onto the chip.
At least for the port, it have to be a thunderbort 3 if it is the only connector.
It's really hard to think that they will do any macbook without external display support. It is the same connector so they can easy get mistaken for a usb-c, and it is also a usb-c.
Old 1st August 2020
  #1055
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
At least for the port, it have to be a thunderbort 3 if it is the only connector.
It's really hard to think that they will do any macbook without external display support. It is the same connector so they can easy get mistaken for a usb-c, and it is also a usb-c.
That’s the dilemma with usb-c connectors, it can be anything from usb2 to usb4 with or without thunderbolt 3 or 4. You just can’t tell by looking at the physical connector.
Old 1st August 2020
  #1056
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uOpt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyJoe View Post
Rumored specs for the first Apple Silicon MacBook (replacing the Air, essentially).



Note: The A14X is expected to be as powerful as the i9 9980HK, with its 5 nm process node. TSMC's 5nm node packs a whopping 173 transistors onto the chip.
I had one of those 12" with one single thunderbolt port. Never again a single port.
Old 1st August 2020
  #1057
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uOpt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX-80 View Post
USB-C hub if anybody wants or needs more and they can choose a hub that has the specific connections that the person wants/requires.
Except that almost no thunderbolt or USB-C hubs have USB-C plugs themselves. They usually only have USB-A, so suddenly your USB-C accessories other than the hub need an adapter to USB-A.

If you have 2 ports you can at least have one hub and one USB-C device.

Also, ports break.
Old 1st August 2020
  #1058
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolosch View Post
That’s the dilemma with usb-c connectors, it can be anything from usb2 to usb4 with or without thunderbolt 3 or 4. You just can’t tell by looking at the physical connector.
Good point, even if dodgy chassis concept photos are leaked, there's only so much information you can guess.

But, although almost pointless (like usual) to speculate about what models are going to come out first with the new CPUs, it's true that there's an interesting dilemma this time about what connectivity standards they might go for.

They might decide to relaunch the discontinued 12" MacBook, this time to nail it with a machine that isn't severely underpowered while still without a fan, and no more terrible keyboard. But that machine was in their non-pro category so it always just had USB C (USB 3.0). But now that the iPads have this too, they might be compelled to go USB C (with USB 3.0 or 4.0 + thunderbolt) on all Mac models, to further distinguish them from iOS devices.

Of course it's not certain they'll come out swinging with a brand new MacBook at all, considering the ambivalence towards the last model. I also don't think it's in their marketing best interests to first launch a model that just sits at the intersection between iOS devices and "real" computers. There's enough feeling out there in the marketplace that the new Apple processors are just low powered mobile components, not "real" CPUs for "real" computers. Why feed this suspicion even more by coming out first with a machine that would tend to confirm that feeling?

So it could be a wiser move all round to launch something further up the range first (a new Air or even a redesigned iMac), with performance stats that trounce the previous models. Even quite possibly including active cooling, to dispense with the myth that the ARM architecture is only good for low heat/low power consumption, and can in fact become a different beast indeed when allowed to draw a lot more power and generate a lot more heat in a larger chassis with traditional cooling. A totally new design of CPU as well of course, intended for traditional computer uses rather than something catering to iOS, no matter how far they got with that already.

From there they could just fan the rollout of models in both directions. New "pro" laptops, higher end iMacs and so on going upwards. And going downwards, sure why not even relaunch the MacBook but this time making it a machine where the execution lives up to the concept. I bet if they do decide to do this, they will annoyingly stick to their guns on the single port idea (even if it does have thunderbolt this time) to make the point that this model is supposed to be as close to an iPad Pro as a traditional laptop can get. Absolute minimised portability being the key concept, meanwhile all other models get a more ample offering of connectivity.

I doubt they would attempt to cut back on ports on any of their pro laptops once they go to Apple Silicon... it's already an ask to get customers to trust in any transition, let alone trying to sell them on a fundamental ergonomic change at the same time. Especially when it's nothing new - we all know the drill, less ports just means having to accept that hubs are a part of the deal, and the satisfaction (not very high) in the marketplace on this is pretty easy to read.

Anyway, that's enough speculation for a comment that literally started out saying it's almost pointless to speculate. But hey, at least it's still on topic for this subject of this thread.
Old 1st August 2020
  #1059
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ponzi's Avatar
Based on past experience, we can be confident that whatever connectors everybody already has will not be the ones on the new device...
Old 1st August 2020
  #1060
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyJoe View Post
Rumored specs for the first Apple Silicon MacBook (replacing the Air, essentially).



Note: The A14X is expected to be as powerful as the i9 9980HK, with its 5 nm process node. TSMC's 5nm node packs a whopping 173 transistors onto the chip.
If that’s true I wonder what would be the point of having the power of an i9 and 16Gb of ram on a computer with a single USB port??? If you’re good with a single port computer it’s because you’re using it for general lower needs computing(web, mail, regular school stuff) and you don’t need the power of an i9 to do that. Put a lower processor in that and bring battery life to 30h rather...

KA
Old 1st August 2020
  #1061
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uOpt View Post
I had one of those 12" with one single thunderbolt port. Never again a single port.
It wasn't even Thunderbolt on those 12" MacBooks. It was single port USB C supporting up to USB 3.0...

I still have one of those machines btw, literally typing on it now. I only got it as a personal toy machine anyway because it was so obviously underpowered to do any serious work. I liked the fact that it's easy to carry around the house in one hand and you can throw it in a bag if you go somewhere and not even notice it's there. It's pretty much nothing more than getting as close as possible to an iPad, but with a keyboard clamshell design and desktop OS instead.

If they ever do re-release that line, I might get another one even if it still only has one port. I've never connected anything to mine except the power cord, I really don't use it for anything that requires a peripheral of any kind. The most "serious' application I ever had in mind for it was as a convenient device to occasionally update my composer website on Squarespace. It's OK for that, but to be honest the Core M is sluggish enough to even make it a bit frustrating at times.

Given that even the Apple CPU in the transition dev kit is powerful enough to edit multiple streams of 4K uncompressed video in Final Cut, it's not hard to see that they could easily revisit this model and get it right this time. And even probably make it quite cheap, considering that even if they threw in the current gen of iPad Pro processor, it would still be fanless and suddenly would feel like a Ferrari compared to the previous models.

A much lower price point would actually make this model make some sense this time around - the 12" MacBooks with the core M were weirdly placed in the pricing spectrum. Way too expensive for such anaemic performance, and not compelling enough to spend a little extra just for the convenience of having an ultralight secondary machine. It made next to no sense to get one over the lowest model 13" MacBook Pro, especially if you added any extra options which made it even more expensive.

I willingly bought mine as an extravagance - I went in knowing that it was just an extra device to have around, even if it wasn't a serious computer in any way. I still like it because it does fit into my routine pretty well, a convenient media player easy to take around the house and also do light things like emailing, without having to adapt to touch-based iOS way of doing those things. But I got mine before the iPad Pro was even a thing, I might have though twice about it if I had the choice at the time.

But, a relaunched model this time at its correct price point (ie, much lower) would make a whooooole lot more sense. It would be a viable alternative to someone who's only decision is: do I want a convenient fanless lightweight device that's Mac OS or iOS? Both of them only have one port, anyone who would be annoyed by that for the use they have in mind need to waste any time and just look at other models instead.
Old 1st August 2020
  #1062
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uOpt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbirdparis View Post
They might decide to relaunch the discontinued 12" MacBook, this time to nail it with a machine that isn't severely underpowered while still without a fan, and no more terrible keyboard. But that machine was in their non-pro category so it always just had USB C (USB 3.0). But now that the iPads have this too, they might be compelled to go USB C (with USB 3.0 or 4.0 + thunderbolt) on all Mac models, to further distinguish them from iOS devices.
My confirmation bias says that this is likely. Since I believe that at least single-core speed will be less (than Intel) it makes sense to go for the model where the user is least likely to expect a lot of processing power.

I would be tempted to get one (I like small things), but when I had the 12" intel Macbook I had the single port break and had to pay for the entire lower body to be replaced. On the bright side that change got me a keyboard worse than before, so bad that they replaced on warranty with a very nice one. Thingie later died with a SSD problem of some kind.

I have my eyes on a 13" intel (with 4 ports).
Old 2nd August 2020
  #1063
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uOpt View Post
My confirmation bias says that this is likely. Since I believe that at least single-core speed will be less (than Intel) it makes sense to go for the model where the user is least likely to expect a lot of processing power.
I don't know about that. Intel's lost a lot of it's advantage when they were forced to reevaluate the whole speculative workloads feature-set at the onset of Meltdown and Spectre.

They also just lost Jim Keller who is a bit of a maverick and in no small part responsible for putting Apple far ahead of the rest of the ARM pack in terms of performance.

It is feasible to imagine him going back to Apple. Insofar as faster single core performance I think that's largely down to the developer. Quality of code I think is still a large factor in these things. The CISC instruction set is pretty old and complex but the developer tools are pretty good and the compiler is obviously really good. Also I thought Intel still reserves a chunk of it's silicon area for CISC to RISC conversion in hardware? This might be why it's power consumption specs always trail ARM and such. If true it stands to reason that the RISC instruction set should be able to outperform Intel ultimately (or at least delivery parity).

I for one am kind of tired of the high power consumption and heat. Although it's less of an issue in the Mac Pro and such and there I am pretty happy with Intel.

Ultimately all I really care about is low latency, lots of high quality virtual instruments, and lots of tracks with however much processing I need. If it can deliver that and cut down on the heat/noise I really don't give a sh!t what's under the hood.
Old 2nd August 2020
  #1064
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KorgAddict View Post
If that’s true I wonder what would be the point of having the power of an i9 and 16Gb of ram on a computer with a single USB port??? If you’re good with a single port computer it’s because you’re using it for general lower needs computing(web, mail, regular school stuff) and you don’t need the power of an i9 to do that. Put a lower processor in that and bring battery life to 30h rather...

KA
One of our studio guys has his room setup around a 21/9 thunderbolt Monitor with everything connected to the Monitor.
He just has to plug one thunderbolt cable in his MacBook and everything is connected.
Actually a very nice setup.
Old 2nd August 2020
  #1065
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uOpt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolosch View Post
One of our studio guys has his room setup around a 21/9 thunderbolt Monitor with everything connected to the Monitor.
He just has to plug one thunderbolt cable in his MacBook and everything is connected.
Actually a very nice setup.
Until the one port on your Macbook breaks
Old 2nd August 2020
  #1066
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uOpt View Post
Until the one port on your Macbook breaks
Yes true, on the other hand I have seen MacBooks dying for several (well mostly because of failing Nvidia chips) but a broken port never happened to me or anyone I know and phones come along quite well with a single connector.
Old 2nd August 2020
  #1067
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolosch View Post
One of our studio guys has his room setup around a 21/9 thunderbolt Monitor with everything connected to the Monitor.
He just has to plug one thunderbolt cable in his MacBook and everything is connected.
Actually a very nice setup.
So, it’s a Macbook Air and not a Macbook. The Macbook has a single USB3.1 USB-C connector. You can’t connect a Thunderbolt display with TB hub on the Macbook. But you could on a MBA. The rumor I was reffering to says it will be USB-only. But as mentionned, there’s no physical difference between a USB3.1 and TB3 port. They both use the USB-C connector, so the included port could be TB3.

Even if it’s TB3, I still don’t see the point in having an i9 powerful laptop with only one port. I’ve had the combo of i7 11’’ MBA with Thunderbolt display in 2013 and it’s a great setup but expensive as TB displays with built-in TB hub are not cheap.

KA
Old 2nd August 2020
  #1068
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by KorgAddict View Post
So, it’s a Macbook Air and not a Macbook. The Macbook has a single USB3.1 USB-C connector. You can’t connect a Thunderbolt display with TB hub on the Macbook. But you could on a MBA. The rumor I was reffering to says it will be USB-only. But as mentionned, there’s no physical difference between a USB3.1 and TB3 port. They both use the USB-C connector, so the included port could be TB3.

Even if it’s TB3, I still don’t see the point in having an i9 powerful laptop with only one port. I’ve had the combo of i7 11’’ MBA with Thunderbolt display in 2013 and it’s a great setup but expensive as TB displays with built-in TB hub are not cheap.

KA
I think it worthless. I think 2 TB3 and 2 USB3 is what I need. Add to that ethernet and power. For sure there will be other variants too that might be more useful (and more expensive).
Old 2nd August 2020
  #1069
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KorgAddict View Post

Even if it’s TB3, I still don’t see the point in having an i9 powerful laptop with only one port. I’ve had the combo of i7 11’’ MBA with Thunderbolt display in 2013 and it’s a great setup but expensive as TB displays with built-in TB hub are not cheap.

KA
I think the only point of this would be if whatever i9-ish level of performance it offers just becomes the new very bottom of the range. If they set this as the new lowest bar of performance with every model upwards from there being significantly faster, then it's really just a bonus.

Look at the iPad Pro, it already has immense amounts of power (in terms of what a user can do with it in things like Final Cut etc), and it does it all with smooth and snappy performance to boot. But it's an iOS device ultimately, so for someone to choose it over a lower end laptop means they have to be OK with working in a non-desktop OS yet doing traditionally desktop OS types of things. These are also machines with a single USB C port.

So there's a possible argument to be made that Apple might want to fill out the bottom of their laptop range with a machine that's just a traditional desktop OS alternative to an iPad Pro. Also with a traditional clamshell keyboard/display form factor. If they've already discovered there's a significant demand for simple devices like this that have higher performance out of their usual class, then maybe they think there's just as much market for a laptop option on a similar level. Those users wouldn't necessarily care that it has one port because that never bothered them on the iPads anyway.

I can see this making sense for many people. If you're a student who always had an iPad Pro, you're not going to be interested in switching to a laptop in the same price range if it can't even come close to doing any of the content creation tasks your iPad could do way better. You'd expect at least the same or better performance. You're also from a different mindset, a generation of people who are just used to using cloud storage and similar things which never required plugging in other equipment.

There's obviously still going to be the other category of user, ie those of us who always think whatever amount of ports there are is still never enough. If Apple were to release a single port ultralight laptop with i9-ish performance (basically taking another shot at the MacBook 12" range), then they would surely only do this if they're planning even higher performance stats for machines above it.
Old 2nd August 2020
  #1070
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uOpt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolosch View Post
Yes true, on the other hand I have seen MacBooks dying for several (well mostly because of failing Nvidia chips) but a broken port never happened to me or anyone I know and phones come along quite well with a single connector.
True, that's another reason I am aiming for the 13" MBP and not the 16". You can't have the 16" without a GPU. Screw that. I know it's not NVidia, but still.

It is actually semi-trivial to change the plugs in phones, but I failed changing the plug when it broke in my old (Intel) 12" Macbook.

And the lightning connector that iPhones use is more robust than USB-C.
Old 2nd August 2020
  #1071
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbirdparis View Post
I think the only point of this would be if whatever i9-ish level of performance it offers just becomes the new very bottom of the range. If they set this as the new lowest bar of performance with every model upwards from there being significantly faster, then it's really just a bonus.

Look at the iPad Pro, it already has immense amounts of power (in terms of what a user can do with it in things like Final Cut etc), and it does it all with smooth and snappy performance to boot. But it's an iOS device ultimately, so for someone to choose it over a lower end laptop means they have to be OK with working in a non-desktop OS yet doing traditionally desktop OS types of things. These are also machines with a single USB C port.

So there's a possible argument to be made that Apple might want to fill out the bottom of their laptop range with a machine that's just a traditional desktop OS alternative to an iPad Pro. Also with a traditional clamshell keyboard/display form factor. If they've already discovered there's a significant demand for simple devices like this that have higher performance out of their usual class, then maybe they think there's just as much market for a laptop option on a similar level. Those users wouldn't necessarily care that it has one port because that never bothered them on the iPads anyway.

I can see this making sense for many people. If you're a student who always had an iPad Pro, you're not going to be interested in switching to a laptop in the same price range if it can't even come close to doing any of the content creation tasks your iPad could do way better. You'd expect at least the same or better performance. You're also from a different mindset, a generation of people who are just used to using cloud storage and similar things which never required plugging in other equipment.

There's obviously still going to be the other category of user, ie those of us who always think whatever amount of ports there are is still never enough. If Apple were to release a single port ultralight laptop with i9-ish performance (basically taking another shot at the MacBook 12" range), then they would surely only do this if they're planning even higher performance stats for machines above it.
I think it is ok to have port limitations on machines that does not have the power for it. But Im afraid that Apple remove ports for aesthetic reasons.
Old 2nd August 2020
  #1072
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolosch View Post
One of our studio guys has his room setup around a 21/9 thunderbolt Monitor with everything connected to the Monitor.
He just has to plug one thunderbolt cable in his MacBook and everything is connected.
Actually a very nice setup.
It's amazingly convenient. I use a CalDigit Thunderbolt hub instead, but it's the same principle: one cable charges the laptop, connects my 828ES audio interface, connects to multiple USB devices including high-speed external storage, and has a DisplayPort connector for my monitor.

One cable, connected to any of the four ports on my MacBook Pro. It feels like the future, though I recognize that path is not without bumps.
Old 2nd August 2020
  #1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolosch View Post
Yes true, on the other hand I have seen MacBooks dying for several (well mostly because of failing Nvidia chips) but a broken port never happened to me or anyone I know and phones come along quite well with a single connector.
Two of five iPhones in my house have had the lightning connector go bad over just a couple years.

Gladly, the USB-C connector is typically a lot more robust.

Pete
Old 2nd August 2020
  #1074
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Two of five iPhones in my house have had the lightning connector go bad over just a couple years.

Gladly, the USB-C connector is typically a lot more robust.

Pete
The lightning cables are the most fragile I've ever used. They're worse than dsubs.
Old 2nd August 2020
  #1075
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
Two of five iPhones in my house have had the lightning connector go bad over just a couple years.

Gladly, the USB-C connector is typically a lot more robust.

Pete
Yes lightning ports go bad really quick, but usually they are only dirty and just need a good cleaning.
Old 3rd August 2020
  #1076
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by geocities View Post
I don't know about that. Intel's lost a lot of it's advantage when they were forced to reevaluate the whole speculative workloads feature-set at the onset of Meltdown and Spectre.

They also just lost Jim Keller who is a bit of a maverick and in no small part responsible for putting Apple far ahead of the rest of the ARM pack in terms of performance.



Ultimately all I really care about is low latency, lots of high quality virtual instruments, and lots of tracks with however much processing I need. If it can deliver that and cut down on the heat/noise I really don't give a sh!t what's under the hood.
This post makes some excellent points. I would also add that the A13 chip is already quite good. It matches or exceeds i9 9900k in single core performance; according to Geekbench. And everybody on here raves about the importance of single core performance in the context of music production so... Of course this is from a 6W chip as well designed to run in phones and such to put this in some more perspective. TDP of the i9 is 127W. Not too shabby from Apple all things considered even if it is a synthetic benchmark. Of course I'm not saying that the current Apple SOCs are faster than Intel i9 chips only that current single core performance is noteworthy and if that's any indication future might be bright for Apple designed chips in the single performance category at least.

The other thing I'll say is that I for one can't wait to see Intel face some consequences for decades of anti-consumer, anti-competitive behaviour and monopolistic business practices. As far as I'm concerned they deserve to lose business.
Old 3rd August 2020
  #1077
Quote:
Originally Posted by To Mega Therion View Post
The lightning cables are the most fragile I've ever used. They're worse than dsubs.
True. These are the actual ports, though, not cables (I've had plenty of those go bad as well)

Pete
Old 3rd August 2020
  #1078
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
True. These are the actual ports, though, not cables (I've had plenty of those go bad as well)

Pete
Are you using apple cables only? It is part of the design that the cable should break before the device. (And it is not a apple lightning feature, usb cables that you get with your phone should break before the phone. At least the more highend ones)
Old 3rd August 2020
  #1079
js1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolosch View Post
Yes true, on the other hand I have seen MacBooks dying for several (well mostly because of failing Nvidia chips) but a broken port never happened to me or anyone I know and phones come along quite well with a single connector.
FWIW, I had a MacBook Air motherboard replaced under AppleCare for a broken USB port. I'm gentle with my machines. So, it does happen.
Old 3rd August 2020
  #1080
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
I think it is ok to have port limitations on machines that does not have the power for it. But Im afraid that Apple remove ports for aesthetic reasons.
I think there was a little more to it than just aesthetics. We all know Apple like to make statements by deleting certain things they think are not critical - no floppy drive on the original iMac, phasing out optical drives etc.

They only ever tried this on one machine, the last MacBook version, partly for aesthetics and design for sure, because that's always a factor for this company. But it was more about suggesting that people who have a need for an ultralight laptop prefer it to be as tiny as possible, and can more than get by with the wireless connectivity options of today. Just as many people with iPad Pros are already used to.

It's hard to say if this "suggestion" was the one reason why that machine failed. It had so many other obvious issues - a failure-prone keyboard that people also hated, very underpowered, decent but not exceptional battery life, way too expensive for the power on offer. If they come back with another attempt at this kind of machine that delivers in spades on all the above points, it wouldn't surprise me if they attempt the one port thing again. And then we'll see if they are wrong about people who use this kind of machine not caring if there's only one port.

Personally I think it wouldn't kill them to at least put one USB C port on either side, no one would complain about that. But we'll see.
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