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Apple to announce ARM chips for all Macs
Old 12th June 2020
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
It sure does. And I guess some people learned the that last months that infrastructure collapse fast and in unpredicted ways.
That's a different argument altogether! The changes I mentioned are being driven by reducing costs. Whether you discuss outsourcing, cloud or content hosting - doing it locally with people who understand your requirements inside/out nearly always deliver better results - but at a cost. And companies don't like costs - it's only a matter of time before a failed cloud environment causes enormous financial damage or a mistake from inexperienced outsourced staff take a blue-chip company to the brink. These are all seen as acceptable risks by the directors who are raking in millions in bonuses by slashing budgets – they’ll be long gone sitting on their yachts when a consequence of these decisions comes to bite the company on the rear. For the more frequent less important issues, middle management can point a finger at the service provider and blame them rather than shoulder responsibility. In the post incident report, it’ll be pointed out how much money was saved by using service x and the transient damage is soon forgotten about. Value is king even if they don't understand what's at risk.
Old 12th June 2020
  #62
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boingy View Post
Apple have never been shy of dropping support for stuff. "Whadya mean your new iPhone won't connect to all those docking stations and chargers you have accumulated? Sheesh, just thrown them away and buy new ones!"
Once I bought an ipad 2 and one and a half year later the updates stopped with ios 10 so after a few years most of my apps couldn't update anymore and my ipad was worthless.
Never gonna buy an apple again.

A friend bought an Mac Mini and after 2 1/2 years the memory gave up but it was integrated on the motherboard.
All he could do was buying a new one....
Old 12th June 2020
  #63
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcutech View Post
So this thread seems to have different opinions on how the Arm chips will perform. Some people are saying that the new chips or system will not out perform the current model for Pro audio work, and others including Apple talk like it’s going to be more efficient and powerful than the current system all around. Is it possible that these chips will be better/smoother for Pro audio/daw/video editing/some cgi production and so on? I just don’t see how Apple could find it a smart move to ditch these consumers. There’s a level of prestige being able to to cater to high end users as well as normal average everyday people(which as a whole prob generate more money).
Efficiency takes endless amounts of optimisation and tweaking – tens of thousands of independent participants are doing this 24 hours a day on x86-64 platforms – Apple cannot compete with that unofficial group effort. As I said before most professional workstation users have workloads which scale well horizontally (ie more cores) these will be well catered for by ARM. Our particular processing requirements are different – individual core horsepower still matters very much to DAW performance - which is why Apple are already falling behind by picking server-class hardware over the gaming optimised hardware (Xeon over i9) these server class machines will also suit their typical power users with lots of independent parallel tasks. (rendering, CAD, ray-tracing, video editing etc.) and the additional PCIE lanes in the Xeon world are helpful – but not really relevant in the DAW world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcutech View Post
I just don’t see Apple completely falling back in performance when these chips come out. I’m almost sure that these chips will perform as good or not slightly better than whatever Apple has as in its latest release. Obviously there might be some bugs to work out and so on but companies like to stay on the cutting-edge, even if it’s not the bread and butter it might someday be and abandoning that progress is bad for business.
The previous two times Apple jumped architectures they were going to much faster platforms – they are jumping from what is currently considered to be the fastest and most optimised mass computing platform into the unknown. But given my previous point – jumping from Xeon is making their job easier because they already have middling single-core performance. AMD Ryzen looks like it’s becoming competitive in both areas – Xeon class horizontal scaling with i9 single-core performance. In the past Apple's jump to faster platforms meant they got away with poorly ported code and resorting to hardware emulation – they won’t have that luxury this time. They will have to hit the ground running.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcutech View Post
I’m not a huge fan of the new Mac Pro pro pricing to performance, as well as single core ratings and all that as well but you have to admit that they really did go above and beyond from previous builds, and I just don’t see them stopping that progress in the future. There’s something about pushing the edge of what and how powerful you can get even though it might now be your bread and butter, again, someday it might be.
They are beautiful machines, superbly detailed using good quality components – they are still largely style over content. As a tech-head I’m looking forward to seeing how this pans out and as a Brit I’m proud of ARM becoming what it is today even though the British input is largely historical. I certainly don’t want Apple to fail – the world needs competition. It’ll be good enough for most amateurs but I believe those DAW users pushing current Macs to the limit will be forced over to PC.
Old 12th June 2020
  #64
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scragend View Post
Efficiency takes endless amounts of optimisation and tweaking – tens of thousands of independent participants are doing this 24 hours a day on x86-64 platforms – Apple cannot compete with that unofficial group effort. As I said before most professional workstation users have workloads which scale well horizontally (ie more cores) these will be well catered for by ARM. Our particular processing requirements are different – individual core horsepower still matters very much to DAW performance - which is why Apple are already falling behind by picking server-class hardware over the gaming optimised hardware (Xeon over i9) these server class machines will also suit their typical power users with lots of independent parallel tasks. (rendering, CAD, ray-tracing, video editing etc.) and the additional PCIE lanes in the Xeon world are helpful – but not really relevant in the DAW world.


The previous two times Apple jumped architectures they were going to much faster platforms – they are jumping from what is currently considered to be the fastest and most optimised mass computing platform into the unknown. But given my previous point – jumping from Xeon is making their job easier because they already have middling single-core performance. AMD Ryzen looks like it’s becoming competitive in both areas – Xeon class horizontal scaling with i9 single-core performance. In the past Apple's jump to faster platforms meant they got away with poorly ported code and resorting to hardware emulation – they won’t have that luxury this time. They will have to hit the ground running.


They are beautiful machines, superbly detailed using good quality components – they are still largely style over content. As a tech-head I’m looking forward to seeing how this pans out and as a Brit I’m proud of ARM becoming what it is today even though the British input is largely historical. I certainly don’t want Apple to fail – the world needs competition. It’ll be good enough for most amateurs but I believe those DAW users pushing current Macs to the limit will be forced over to PC.
I appreciate you taking the time to thoughtfully respond to my post. I don't know very much about the actual mechanics and specifics, just an artist who also mixes and masters, and have a hard time wrapping my head around on how they could release anything worse than what they already have, but I'm sure you're seeing what's being presented and it just doesn't add up.

my iMac pro sucks when it comes to single core, and this is the way DAWs work as far as individual track processing, so it cant get much worse right? using the heavy cpu plug-ins I use at even at high buffers in Ableton I still have to freeze almost everything when in full mix mode, but I still get much more done before that point than having an inferior computer, and I can actually handle the mastering chain but it gets close.

When I do a stress test thats not realistic like copy and pasting tracks until Ableton starts to break, I notice my cpu core usuage meter can get close to 85%-90% full, when I check a real life workflow I'm breaking at 45% full.

designating a core to a track and not being able to spread across all cores even with multi-core processing enabled is a problem.

I just don't see these new chips being anyworse than what it already is, and hope that it might actually be better in some way, but can see how people are skeptical, clearly you guys have a better grasp on the mechanics and functions which I don't.

I cannot stand the maintenance that comes with a PC, I know its fairly straight forward once you get use to it, but I'd rather be closer to the Mac side which is more plug and play friendly.

Obviously if PCs are completely smoking Macs when these chips are released and Apple decides to take the approach people are speaking of, I will have no choice but build a Daw/pro audio PC computer, but for everything else will still use apple.
Old 12th June 2020
  #65
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by willem1958 View Post
Once I bought an ipad 2 and one and a half year later the updates stopped with ios 10 so after a few years most of my apps couldn't update anymore and my ipad was worthless.
Never gonna buy an apple again.

A friend bought an Mac Mini and after 2 1/2 years the memory gave up but it was integrated on the motherboard.
All he could do was buying a new one....
That's why I get AppleCare.
Old 12th June 2020
  #66
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scragend View Post
The point I’m making is as desktop computing falls off a cliff - I don’t know anyone outside DAW users that have bought a desktop machine for years and corporations tend to buy laptops now – how many users use anything other than office or web-hosted applications? The OS is becoming less and less important. Maintaining compatibility with diverse hardware releases will become increasingly senseless from a commercial point of view, Hardware such as graphics cards and motherboards will become more expensive as the volumes decrease hastening the demise of the PC. Business users are abandoning windows server in droves moving to Linux instead. Ditto for other propitiatory MS stalwarts such as Sequel Server, Oracle are having the same issue – Oracle is becoming irrelevant as the quality and stability of opensource databases improve.

Microsoft now allow you to run Linux directly on your Windows machine – why are they doing that? Surely that works against their proprietory ecosystem – the answer is they have to as Windows is becoming less relevant. They want to keep developers on Windows machines so having a local Linux image for testing is vital. I do exactly that for my own little projects – write code in MS Code and compile or execute it on a local Linux image – it works brilliantly.

Maintaining the NT kernel for internal use on specific hardware platforms makes sense, things like office are irrelevant – that sort of stuff is moving to the cloud and can be recompiled for difference platforms or OSes – the thing developers are tied to (due to intellectual investment) is the .NET framework – not the OS. Most Azure customers deploy Linux applications and microservices – mainly to leave options open for switching to other service providers such as AWS. The Windows part of Azure is not really tied to future desktop development. As for other important platforms, I wouldn’t bet against this or the next Xbox being the last physical Xbox – maintaining a hardware platform is expensive and the consoles are often sold at a loss - the future for gaming is cloud-rendering of the games, this means you can produce platform-independent games that are playable on almost any hardware – Xbox will become a bunch of server farms – the only Xbox hardware you’ll require will be a controller, your remotely-rendered game can be streamed to your TV, laptop, tablet, projector or VR headset. The world is changing fast and it does not require sophisticated or powerful local computing.
I agree with you that Microsoft is relying less and less on windows desktop usage as a revenue stream, but my overall point is that all of their other main revenue streams still rely heavily on Windows/NT. Azure - run on windows. Office 365 - run on windows. XBox - run on windows.

Furthermore, just because Windows desktop might not be necessarily gaining market share, Windows is still insanely entrenched in the corporate world. And the reason is because the main killer feature of Windows is its backwards compatibility. If Microsoft were to abandon the NT kernel in windows they would accelerate the abandonment of Windows as a platform in the corporate world, which I guarantee they are not interested in doing. Microsoft has had a new "modern" runtime since around the time of Windows 8 which was released in 2012. In 8 YEARS they have not been able to migrate Office into this new runtime THAT THEY BUILT. Imagine how hard it would be to migrate it to a Linux based runtime. Office is not built on .Net - it's built on Win32, COM, and other hidden OS system calls. It's not something that can be simply "recompiled" for another OS.

It seems that Microsoft is really not all that interested in protecting their proprietary ecosystem any more - that's why you see them releasing apps on android, cross platform tooling like VS Code, supporting WSL in windows etc. This is a strategy to drive people to their services (Azure, Microsoft 365, etc etc). These are the revenue streams they care about and will invest in.

But even if all of these barriers of moving off of NT did not exist, I am still not convinced they would do it. What exactly do they have to gain by moving to a Linux based kernel? Other than the "cost of maintaining NT".
Old 12th June 2020
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mungu View Post
I
What exactly do they have to gain by moving to a Linux based kernel? Other than the "cost of maintaining NT".
Mostly performance.
Old 12th June 2020
  #68
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
Mostly performance.
I don't think that the Linux kernel is strictly faster than the NT kernel.

The file systems on Linux are faster, particularly when dealing with lots of small files.
Old 12th June 2020
  #69
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scragend View Post
The point I’m making is as desktop computing falls off a cliff - I don’t know anyone outside DAW users that have bought a desktop machine for years and corporations tend to buy laptops now – how many users use anything other than office or web-hosted applications? The OS is becoming less and less important. Maintaining compatibility with diverse hardware releases will become increasingly senseless from a commercial point of view, Hardware such as graphics cards and motherboards will become more expensive as the volumes decrease hastening the demise of the PC. Business users are abandoning windows server in droves moving to Linux instead. Ditto for other propitiatory MS stalwarts such as Sequel Server, Oracle are having the same issue – Oracle is becoming irrelevant as the quality and stability of opensource databases improve.

Microsoft now allow you to run Linux directly on your Windows machine – why are they doing that? Surely that works against their proprietory ecosystem – the answer is they have to as Windows is becoming less relevant. They want to keep developers on Windows machines so having a local Linux image for testing is vital. I do exactly that for my own little projects – write code in MS Code and compile or execute it on a local Linux image – it works brilliantly.

Maintaining the NT kernel for internal use on specific hardware platforms makes sense, things like office are irrelevant – that sort of stuff is moving to the cloud and can be recompiled for difference platforms or OSes – the thing developers are tied to (due to intellectual investment) is the .NET framework – not the OS. Most Azure customers deploy Linux applications and microservices – mainly to leave options open for switching to other service providers such as AWS. The Windows part of Azure is not really tied to future desktop development. As for other important platforms, I wouldn’t bet against this or the next Xbox being the last physical Xbox – maintaining a hardware platform is expensive and the consoles are often sold at a loss - the future for gaming is cloud-rendering of the games, this means you can produce platform-independent games that are playable on almost any hardware – Xbox will become a bunch of server farms – the only Xbox hardware you’ll require will be a controller, your remotely-rendered game can be streamed to your TV, laptop, tablet, projector or VR headset. The world is changing fast and it does not require sophisticated or powerful local computing.
Really sorry.... ocd... but just couldn't let it go.... "Sequel" Server??
Old 12th June 2020
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mungu View Post
I don't think that the Linux kernel is strictly faster than the NT kernel.

The file systems on Linux are faster, particularly when dealing with lots of small files.
It wins what ever you try to compare. And when it does not it get quickly fixed. It is the OS for the biggest supercomputers to most of the gadgets. The reason is that it is open source. It is analysed on universities and companies all over the world and ever little tiny performance improvements they find aggregate to a beast. But it also makes it complex, is not easy to get it right for a specific usage.
Old 12th June 2020
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artcutech View Post
So this thread seems to have different opinions on how the Arm chips will perform. Some people are saying that the new chips or system will not out perform the current model for Pro audio work, and others including Apple talk like it’s going to be more efficient and powerful than the current system all around.
My opinion is that Apple would not be switching unless the new way is better and more powerful than the current way.

It makes no sense to release new hardware if it's going to be less powerful than current hardware. Who's going to want to buy a new machine? They might as well buy a used machine for cheaper that's going to be more powerful.

Current ARM chips used in iPhones/Ipads are very powerful and efficient. I think that Apple is going to have some sort of super ARM chip in their desktops.

I remember when Apple made the switch from Motorola to Intel chips, and the difference was significant.

I don't think that Apple would be making the move from Intel to their own custom ARM chips unless the difference is going to be equally as significant.
Old 12th June 2020
  #72
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ponzi's Avatar
Not an apple fanboy—use windows for daw. But I am certain that whatever product apple releases, it will be fast and reliable as is appropriate for its product class. I will be glad to purchase same if it meets my needs. Arm beating x86 chips on high performance desktop systems where cost is a consideration—doubtful... 99.9% of their other products, chip doesnt look like a differentiator to me one way or tother. Of course the usual loss of 3rd party software, but apple users have been there at least twice, so nothing new there (os9 to osx and moto to intel.)
Old 12th June 2020
  #73
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by detritusdave View Post
Really sorry.... ocd... but just couldn't let it go.... "Sequel" Server??
I have spelled the letters when saying it since I first encountered it in sybase and db2 in the 90s. Some rude wuss actually corrected me at a user group meeting, but hustled on before I had a chance to put his wet behind the ears butt in its place.

Seriously, this pronunciation and that of tuple, remain subject of controversy.

Correct product name is microsoft sql server—no room for debate there.

Last edited by ponzi; 12th June 2020 at 11:52 PM..
Old 13th June 2020
  #74
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weezul's Avatar
As an avid hackintosh-er, I'm not all concerned right now. I love my machine, and I doubt AVID will be ready for this any time soon. Fairly certain I could run this machine into the ground (and it's already 5 years old) before AVID is ready with an ARM version of Pro Tools. Not before charging us all the yearly fee for years and then releasing a version with 1,000 caveats, 2 years later than everyone else of course
Old 13th June 2020
  #75
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX-80 View Post
I think that Apple is going to have some sort of super ARM chip in their desktops.
I think so too.

Everything else you mentioned in your post sounds like common sense as well.
Old 13th June 2020
  #76
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Super chips? Whatever.

Total control. Eventually, every single piece of code, wire, metal, plastic...constructed, copyrighted, patented, controlled in-house.

That's really the only fun part of the longterm trip for those guys.

It's also probably a daily reminder when any of them pass Steve's preserved office.

Total control.....makes life better and better and better!
Old 13th June 2020
  #77
Here for the gear
 

I was planning on getting the 2019 27" as it would be awesome for Logic Pro X with the specs I want to get.........I'm thinking I should just get that soon, lock in all the plug-ins I need.....get it to a place that I'm comfortable with and then never update it if I don't have to..........Use that imac for a few years until the ARM imacs are compatible with Logic Pro.
Old 13th June 2020
  #78
Quote:
Originally Posted by RP11 View Post
I was planning on getting the 2019 27" as it would be awesome for Logic Pro X with the specs I want to get.........I'm thinking I should just get that soon, lock in all the plug-ins I need.....get it to a place that I'm comfortable with and then never update it if I don't have to..........Use that imac for a few years until the ARM imacs are compatible with Logic Pro.
If you're looking to get a machine now, its definitely smarter than jumping into a first gen Apple machine. At least you'll have an established set of tools to work with until the machine just won't do the job you need it to any more.

Buy a new ARM (or whatever) machine, and you get to sit and wait for everyone else. Sure you'll probably have Logic shortly after its released, but its gonna take everyone else awhile to catch up. Although to be honest, the PPC to Intel move was nowhere near as bad as the initial move to OS X. Seemed like it took some devs yeeeears to leave OS 9 behind, and some didn't even bother coming along.
Old 13th June 2020
  #79
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Robb Robinson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
glad I did not buy the first generation mac pro

other than that it´s a pretty logical decision and most of us will profit from faster, cooler and more efficient macs.
I think this logic is erroneous myself.

You think that right now we should avoid current Mac Pros because Apple just announced a future platform switch that will require a complete recode of all software?

The current Mac Pros running Catalina are freakishly stable money makers and will remain that way for many years to come.

If anything this announcement should cause people to stock up on stable systems before the madness strikes.
Old 13th June 2020
  #80
Gear Maniac
If you look at how many Cheese MP's are still running. The newest MP will work for at least 10 years, at least 5 years after the first ARM MP is sold. I doubt we're gonna see an ArmMP for a few years at least. Then you have the Hacks to load the latest OS to keep them if that matters to you.
I'd love to see a computer housed in the 42' XDR display with performance and no fans needed (hopefully).
Say 8 USB-C (maybe there's D now).
Old 13th June 2020
  #81
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uOpt's Avatar
Currently there is no ARM chip that has remotely the same per-core performance as x86, much less Intel's current gen.

Apple obviously plans to have lots of special chips with special drivers doing the heavy lifting that the unwashed masses need (e.g. video performance), but those of us that really do unique CPU stuff like audio, programming, scripting etc won't meet our performance goals anytime soon.
Old 13th June 2020
  #82
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekwipt View Post
I think they'll go AMD and they're doing this to throw people off the scent, when Apple introduces the AMD powered iMac and Macbook Pro at WWDC the AMD stock price will go through the roof. AMD has Zen 3 and RDNA 2 Big Navi chips launching September/October, the AMD CPUs are already more powerful than
Intel in Laptops and Apple have been tranitiining to AMD from their grpahics chips and now with their CPU.

Have a look at the AMD Hackintosh, they basically work the exact same way as Intel, are faster, cooler and have more cores. A transition to ARM won't happen, they wont be able to build enough ARM macs with all of the iPhones, iPads and Apple TVs taking their CPUs.

I also think we'll see some sort of AMD based gaming Mac released as well, Steam releases will be available from day 1. It just makes way more sense to me since PS5 and Xbox are coming out by holiday season, Apple want to enter the gaming, console wars, they love anything to do with media and esports, gaming is the only thing they're not involved with yet and the space has so much upside

Not a chance. Apple aren't looking for an alternative Intel to replace Intel. They want to use their 1.5 trillion dollar market capitalisation and pace of development to beat both AMD and Intel at their own game. Apple only strolled into ARM chip design a decade ago with the iPhone 4 and related iPads. The A13 chip in iPhone 11s matches AMD's current 7nm technology.

ARM holdings is really the only silicon company out there that can keep pace with Apple. They don't sell CPUs like AMD and Intel. They license their intellectual property in silicon manufacturing. TSMC will make as many production lines as they need to meet Apple's supply demands. They have already proven that, with 21 billion processes a year. Intel and AMD seem to brag when they hit a couple of hundred million a quarter.

It's a smart move, really. Apple have been stripping out parts of OSX for years. I suspect ARM processors will start moving into lower end Mac's like MacBooks and Mac Minis first. We will see an amalgamation of IOS and OSX. The performance increases and unified platform will likely justify the costs for software developers. And Apple & ARM will beat both AMD and Intel to the 2nm milestone... simply because they have more money, and far more experience creating smaller, faster, more efficient CPU technology. The A13 in iPhone 11s is already a 6-core 2.65gHz processor.

The result will be something far closer to a single computer experience across multiple Apple devices. Some people will naturally hate that idea. But I can see some upsides. I enjoyed my time with a hackintosh, but I don't miss it. Too much fiddling with computer stuff means less time spent with audio. The day I can simply click a profile preset that I have created within the App Store on any new device, walk away... and come back to a machine that has everything as I want it for audio work, is the day I'll be a happy man. We really shouldn't need 120 separate executable plugin installers, 12 different license applications and 3 hardware dongles in 2020. A single unified, simpler platform is an experience that probably appeals to the vast majority of computer users.

Last edited by LDStudios; 14th June 2020 at 02:38 AM..
Old 14th June 2020
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb Robinson View Post
I think this logic is erroneous myself.

You think that right now we should avoid current Mac Pros because Apple just announced a future platform switch that will require a complete recode of all software?

The current Mac Pros running Catalina are freakishly stable money makers and will remain that way for many years to come.

If anything this announcement should cause people to stock up on stable systems before the madness strikes.
As allways,
guys making money with gear need to buy what´s available
guys not making money with gear - like me - can wait for what´s being announced.

The only reason I would have bought a mac pro instead of an imac
is - no noise, more processing power and better expandibility.
Arm specd macs could eventually take the noise + processing power issue away.
Other than that I don´t see as many guys these days shelling out over 10 k for a mac...
Old 14th June 2020
  #84
Gear Head
 

The best predictor of future success is past performance. It’s not sure fire, but other methods are worse.

Architecture changes are never easy but relative to competitors Apple has been very successful indeed. And they did a good job of spreading out the pain and not losing users by supporting transitional emulation software layers a good while. There will always be laggards, but I bet they will do the same thing this time.

They’ve had good success making their own iPhone processors. And Apple has always been about creating a great product by controlling vertical integration. Taking over control of their CPU destiny is something long overdue actually.

Here is a quote from Alan Kay via Steve Jobs:

“ Now, you know, one of the pioneers of our industry, Alan Kay, has had a lot of great quotes throughout the years. And I ran across one of them recently that explains how we look at this. Explains why we go about doing things the way we do, because we love software.

And here’s the quote: “People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware.”

You know, Alan said this 30 years ago, and this is how we feel about it.”
Old 14th June 2020
  #85
Gear Head
 

One more aside. By taking control of their CPU Apple will be able to implement better security and user privacy. They aren’t perfect, but looking at the current tech landscape they are one of the few companies on your side in what will only become an even more heated battle over time.
Old 14th June 2020
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galanter View Post

Architecture changes are never easy but relative to competitors Apple has been very successful indeed. And they did a good job of spreading out the pain and not losing users by supporting transitional emulation software layers a good while. There will always be laggards, but I bet they will do the same thing this time.
There was nowhere near as much software in use then as there is now - during the first architecture change you could bundle most Mac users into a few user camps - QuarkExpress, Pagemaker and Photoshop, and there were significant bumps in the road between 68K versions let alone the shift to PowerPC and X86 - which sometimes forced customers to repurchase software they already owned! Both architecture changes also coincided with massive increases in memory density and improvements in hard-disk technology, so again, a loss in CPU efficiency could be mitigated with vastly more memory for the same price and better I/O plus the fact they were invariably faster processors than before. Now we all generally have as much memory as we need and most modern machines are running on SSDs attached to mega-fast busses.

Okay, modern processors are so fast such that your average casual user writing an email or editing his household expenditure spreadsheet will hardly notice any performance change regardless of underlying CPU efficiency, but dropping 20% or 30% on any heavyweight application is going to sting and unlike before, there will be no significant CPU core speed, hard-disk performance, bus speed or memory speed/density wins to help dilute the "cost" of porting across to a new CPU architecture. We've long-since hit the wall in Moore's law and the rest of the hardware isn’t taking leaps and bounds in performance – any CPU efficiency drop is going to be glaring to power users.
Old 14th June 2020
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uOpt View Post
Currently there is no ARM chip that has remotely the same per-core performance as x86, much less Intel's current gen.

Apple obviously plans to have lots of special chips with special drivers doing the heavy lifting that the unwashed masses need (e.g. video performance), but those of us that really do unique CPU stuff like audio, programming, scripting etc won't meet our performance goals anytime soon.
Yes, that's pretty much my take on it. Hope I'm surprised/proved wrong!
Old 14th June 2020
  #88
Gear Maniac
 

I don't think there's any reason to assume these new systems will be slower. All of the products Apple are currently making that contain their own chips are faster than the competition and their issue with Intel is that development is too slow. I don't know for sure if Apple will succeed in creating faster products outside of the mobile market but I don't have a reason yet to be sure they won't. It seems like a lot of people have jumped to "well the new stuff will be slower" like it's guaranteed with no evidence.
Old 14th June 2020
  #89
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uOpt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by signalpudding View Post
I don't think there's any reason to assume these new systems will be slower. All of the products Apple are currently making that contain their own chips are faster than the competition and their issue with Intel is that development is too slow. I don't know for sure if Apple will succeed in creating faster products outside of the mobile market but I don't have a reason yet to be sure they won't. It seems like a lot of people have jumped to "well the new stuff will be slower" like it's guaranteed with no evidence.
Apple cannot possibly achieve an ARM per-core performance bump of 2x or more just out of the blue.

Sure, iPhone and friends perform well in their respective zone, but their CPUs are multiple times slower for general-purpose computing than Intel desktop/laptop CPUs.

They'll use more cores and more specialized chips (e.g. for machine learning execution), but that doesn't safe us general computing needers.
Old 14th June 2020
  #90
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Dave_Ionic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monotremata View Post
Go figure I just bought a new Mac mini last Friday.
Make that two of us.( Scored a 2018 ( new old stock) i7 with a 256 main drive for $1049 running Mojave ) LOL In all out truth though I was around and went throught the Power PC transistion to Intel. It was not a big deal. Apple kept Rosetta around long enough for us to make it.

On top of that with the way these machines retain value there will be someone to buy it in 2-3 years when there is a stable Arms model worth buying. I will get back at least 50% of my purchase value.

Not only that but it used to be back in the day we upgraded our Macs every two years due to software updates. We are now at the point where the hardware is fast enough for most software hence you see people going 7-10 years on a Mac. I know my last two reiterations averaged that.

Of course until WWDC I would not put too much weight in the prediction department. Apple will do the laptops first. The Imacs after that.Mini’s hard to say? Towers will be down the road at least 3 years or more. Arms is not fully realized to run a lot of X86 architecture software.
Yes Microsoft has done it with not quite stellar results in the surface line but its still not quite ready for heavy duty use on the software side.
I.E. see this without fear of your current machine becoming obsolete in the next year or two.

As far as laptops go this does make me pause as I was thinking of upgrading my 2016 Macbook Pro 13 to a new scissor key one if not grabbing a souped up Air.
Now not so sure. Have to wait till WWDC to see.
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