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Apple to announce ARM chips for all Macs
Old 10th June 2020
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boingy View Post
Apple have never been shy of dropping support for stuff. "Whadya mean your new iPhone won't connect to all those docking stations and chargers you have accumulated? Sheesh, just thrown them away and buy new ones!"
Well imagine you just recently bought a 10000$+ 2020 Intel MacPro for music purposes using logic X, of which Apple aggressively marketed for that use. I really doubt anybody would just accept 'throwing it away'.
Old 10th June 2020
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raddler View Post
Well imagine you just recently bought a 10000$+ 2020 Intel MacPro for music purposes using logic X, of which Apple aggressively marketed for that use. I really doubt anybody would just accept 'throwing it away'.
Yeah, that's the sound of you missing the point. It's not the $10000 Mac Pro that the problem. It's all the software and hardware that you use with that may not work on the next $10000 Mac Pro (or $12000 probably!).

You'll probably have to pay for software updates and pray that the hardware manufacturers will update their drivers for any older products you have. And if you don't think that will happen... PowerPC!
Old 10th June 2020
  #33
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I have seen many arm systems. They are efficient regarding work per watt. But still they are far far behind in performance. And they have never been designed from ARM to be that. There are some clever guys at apple but I dont think they can do magic that ARM can not do. Sure if they show something that out perform a 64 core threadripper from last year with on the show im listen. My view if this happen it is not based on technical merits. They have business reasons get the their customers in to IOS echo system and they will try to force Mac users in to that, the plan is to take there share of software market even for the mac. It make business sense if you think you can pull it through. But they take a big risk of losing the mac fans. It will be a great laptop for email and web, but I dont see that it will be for pro-audio for a long long time even if they get vendors to fix their software. We already see that they **** up OSX with restrictions on hardware vendors. USB drives need to be in userspace, that is of course for the reason that it will then also work for ARM devices. But it cost performance for Intel and ARM. Low latency goodbye!
Old 10th June 2020
  #34
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Me. As a developer myself. Feel sorry for all the plugin devs. Having to make another port / format and in most cases not getting any money for it.

Me as a musician don’t care. I’ve had Mac since the Motorola CPU’s. They kicked ass then and will probably with this CPU as well.
Old 10th June 2020
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knadles View Post
Took them 8 months last time. PPC to Intel. Completely different architecture. RISC to CISC. Endian issues.

8 months, from the first Intel computer to the complete line transition.

My point is...nothing we predict here will have anything more than an accidental relationship to what actually happens. If they announce at WDC, there's a good chance engineering work is underway on almost the entire line. The transition has already begun, it just hasn't been announced.

Pete
The big difference is that they went to a much faster CPU so there was a huge up side for the customers. Sure IBM and Motorola talked about how fast there CPU will be soon. And they still are around, they have been faster but they don't touch Intel or AMD is performance. And it is hard to make fast risc cpus, it is the same physics rules. The point is that you should be able to make it faster because of that it is simpler. But today the limitation is physics not complexity so they will have the same clocks resulting in that the risc lose against a cisc.
Old 10th June 2020
  #36
What I don't get is how is Apple supposed to outperform Intel? How is that even possible? This is obviously about cost and design, rather than performance.
Old 10th June 2020
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
What I don't get is how is Apple supposed to outperform Intel? How is that even possible? This is obviously about cost and design, rather than performance.
I think they assume that the amount of people that care about that is negligible.
Old 10th June 2020
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
I think they assume that the amount of people that care about that is negligible.
Good point
Old 11th June 2020
  #39
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Apple as a DAW platform is going to be interesting, ARMs scale very well with truly parallel workloads - but DAW workloads are heavily parallel-processed converging streams of data at various points guaranteeing latch and lock contention for shared resources - a killer for slower but more numerous cores. Intel and AMD have spent decades chasing gaming benchmarks, games are very similar to DAWs in that there are often shared resource contentions whilst trying to deliver a guaranteed real-time output (no dropped frames) making them great DAW platforms.

Apple are throwing billions of hours of development and tuning in the bin – I suspect DAW users make up a tiny proportion of their professional technical users. Video editing, ray tracing, rendering, CAD – all the “usual” power-user use-cases scale well horizontally because they can be broken into independent chunks and are not real time. I will be more than surprised if a high-end Mac in three years time can get anywhere near a vastly cheaper x64 platform as a DAW platform – and that really is a shame – I’m not a huge Apple fan but I do see the value of Macs for people who want stuff that’s going to “just work” without having to be an IT specialist!

A brand new top-of the tree Intel Mac might last you ten years – but will the operating system? I can’t see Apple willing to spend big bucks supporting Intel a second longer than they have to, the aim is clearly to converge OSes down to one across a common hardware platform – specialist workloads like ours (in their current format) which require intensive and extensive hardware/software optimisation are bound to suffer. Let’s face it - Apple are not going to lose any sleep over DAW users. Similarly, how much longer will Microsoft want to carry on burning billions maintaining an OS? They can carry on tracking and profiling you via office365/Skype/Teams etc. – they don’t need an OS to do that any more. I reckon Windows and Apple OS will eventually become little more than familiar shells sitting over Linux.

As I’ve mentioned in a similar thread, slower but more numerous cores may give some clever kids the push to develop a smarter DAW that renders anything not dependent on real-time or dynamic input in the background as you’re working, lessening the reliance on monster cores and hiding latency; When you hit play you are just joining the just-in-time rendered streams plus the tracks that need to be crunched in real time. Using a similar approach I think we are less than ten years away from the emergence of cloud-based plugins anyway, which will just be pay-as-you-go cloud microservices. As bespoke desktop computing platforms die, this will become the new norm. So are Apple doing the right thing? Probably as a business model in terms of the cost of support and profit.
Old 11th June 2020
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgrotto View Post
You'd hafta be crazy to run a business around your computer and invest in 1st gen processor tech. Anyone who's recently bought a mac pro will be in great shape for upwards of a decade.
Except when Apple releases os 16 Eye of Newt in 2025...purposely designed to not run on 2020 Macs....and then Logic 11....purposely designed to not run on any os before Goat Pile (that one was a couple of releases after Catalina)....
Old 11th June 2020
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osk View Post
Apple plans to announce ARM transition for all Macs at WWDC 2020


At its Worldwide Developers Conference (WWDC) later this month, Apple plans to announce the beginning of its transition from Intel-based Macs to ARM-based ones with internally designed CPUs.

According to today's report, though, Apple plans to transition its entire line, from MacBooks to the Mac Pro—albeit not all at once. The report doesn't indicate which machines will hit the market first, only that Apple plans to bring this change to all Macs at some point.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020...-at-wwdc-2020/

Once again we will be facing two, three years of incompatible, badly adapted software, and another massive culling of applications that won't be ported at all.

I can't hardly wait..

How many plugins, software we will lose?

Are you a developer? What's your take on the news?

Should you buy a intel Mac knowing this now?

Is this the end of hackintosh and boot camp?

Did you invest 40K on the latest Mac Pro Intel based system?

Please discuss
I think there's already a thread on this from a couple of months ago.
Old 11th June 2020
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boingy View Post
Yeah, that's the sound of you missing the point. It's not the $10000 Mac Pro that the problem. It's all the software and hardware that you use with that may not work on the next $10000 Mac Pro (or $12000 probably!).

You'll probably have to pay for software updates and pray that the hardware manufacturers will update their drivers for any older products you have. And if you don't think that will happen... PowerPC!
Exactly. Those who don't learn from the Apple past......
Old 11th June 2020
  #43
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I think this rumour is wrong. I think it will be a arm coprocessor in each mac that can run applications. Or the opposite, a arm that launch intel applications on a intel or a AMD soc when needed. So a hybrid computer is what we will see.
Old 11th June 2020
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
glad I did not buy the first generation mac pro

other than that it´s a pretty logical decision and most of us will profit from faster, cooler and more efficient macs.

also pretty good for all of us, who are logic pro users.

hackintosh guys will move into windows land and call it a day.
Microsoft is planning that for a long time... so i suppose hackintosh will still be a possibility in the future.
Apple didn't invent the wheel..
Old 11th June 2020
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
I think this rumour is wrong. I think it will be a arm coprocessor in each mac that can run applications. Or the opposite, a arm that launch intel applications on a intel or a AMD soc when needed. So a hybrid computer is what we will see.
Wouldn't that be cool!

I really like this idea, but I doubt that it's the way Apple will go. Let's hope. More power for different tasks.
Old 11th June 2020
  #46
Gear Addict
Lets hope there isn't a new Pluggin architecture like ArmAUx
Old 11th June 2020
  #47
Dgr
Gear Nut
shot in the arm

will be a shot in the arm for analogue and for big plugin developers like IK, Waves, Softube. I use both and as for the plugins it is a lot easier to re-stock an entirely family of updated plugins than from 150 different developers some of whom might nit keep up. I feel badly for them
Old 11th June 2020
  #48
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Apple doesn't need to be bothered with this transition unless they see an upside. What exactly that "upside" is , remains to be seen. In any case, keeping up with technology is always an expensive, and sometimes harrowing, proposition.
Old 11th June 2020
  #49
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Frankly, the chip is not the question here. The main problem is to know how the future OS will handle both platforms. Maybe there will be two lines : a high powered CPU line for prosumers and a lower powered line for public. If Mac OS can handle those two lines, who cares ? On the other hand, if this new turn means Intel machines are not fully supported (like PPC), we have to worry. The key is the OS. If there's magic, it won't be in the ARM chips, but in the code.
Old 11th June 2020
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scalawag View Post
Microsoft is planning that for a long time... so i suppose hackintosh will still be a possibility in the future.
Apple didn't invent the wheel..
They rarely do... they just make it roll better.

KA
Old 11th June 2020
  #51
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Unless they run "Intel" apps inside some sort of sandboxed virtualization.
Ok i'm derailing here...
Old 11th June 2020
  #52
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scragend View Post
Similarly, how much longer will Microsoft want to carry on burning billions maintaining an OS? They can carry on tracking and profiling you via office365/Skype/Teams etc. – they don’t need an OS to do that any more. I reckon Windows and Apple OS will eventually become little more than familiar shells sitting over Linux.
I very strongly disagree about this. I don't think that Microsoft will ever abandon the NT kernel. Even if consumer Windows is not the cash cow that it used to be and might not look important to the company, almost every single one of their important products are built on top of Windows/NT: Azure, Office(365), XBox, etc.

Changing the core platform that they run on would be a huge huge undertaking and there's no real benefit. They've spent the last 10-15 years modernizing the NT kernel into a micro-kernel architecture - it does exactly what they want. Switching to a Linux kernel would be a huge amount of work and it would break a lot of their backwards compatibility. Breaking this would almost certainly cause them to lose tons of corporate customers over time.

I think instead they are going the other route - how can they serve the needs of developer by making it easy to use a Linux kernel side-by-side in Windows? WSL2 is a true realization of that idea and I think they are well positioned to capture the developer market back from Apple if Mac OS loses x86 support.
Old 11th June 2020
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scalawag View Post
Unless they run "Intel" apps inside some sort of sandboxed virtualization.
Ok i'm derailing here...
That's pretty much exactly what they did in the transition from PPC to Intel. It was called Rosetta. Downside is a performance hit and Apple only supported it for a couple of years after the transition.

Pete
Old 12th June 2020
  #54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
glad I did not buy the first generation mac pro

other than that it´s a pretty logical decision and most of us will profit from faster, cooler and more efficient macs.

also pretty good for all of us, who are logic pro users.

hackintosh guys will move into windows land and call it a day.
Why not? The first generation Mac Pro had a good 7 year or so run up until Mountain Lion came out and it got left behind. I was still using mine until I couldn't take being out of date anymore in 2016 and finally got a 2010 hex core Pro.
Old 12th June 2020
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mungu View Post
I very strongly disagree about this. I don't think that Microsoft will ever abandon the NT kernel. Even if consumer Windows is not the cash cow that it used to be and might not look important to the company, almost every single one of their important products are built on top of Windows/NT: Azure, Office(365), XBox, etc.

Changing the core platform that they run on would be a huge huge undertaking and there's no real benefit. They've spent the last 10-15 years modernizing the NT kernel into a micro-kernel architecture - it does exactly what they want. Switching to a Linux kernel would be a huge amount of work and it would break a lot of their backwards compatibility. Breaking this would almost certainly cause them to lose tons of corporate customers over time.

I think instead they are going the other route - how can they serve the needs of developer by making it easy to use a Linux kernel side-by-side in Windows? WSL2 is a true realization of that idea and I think they are well positioned to capture the developer market back from Apple if Mac OS loses x86 support.
The point I’m making is as desktop computing falls off a cliff - I don’t know anyone outside DAW users that have bought a desktop machine for years and corporations tend to buy laptops now – how many users use anything other than office or web-hosted applications? The OS is becoming less and less important. Maintaining compatibility with diverse hardware releases will become increasingly senseless from a commercial point of view, Hardware such as graphics cards and motherboards will become more expensive as the volumes decrease hastening the demise of the PC. Business users are abandoning windows server in droves moving to Linux instead. Ditto for other propitiatory MS stalwarts such as Sequel Server, Oracle are having the same issue – Oracle is becoming irrelevant as the quality and stability of opensource databases improve.

Microsoft now allow you to run Linux directly on your Windows machine – why are they doing that? Surely that works against their proprietory ecosystem – the answer is they have to as Windows is becoming less relevant. They want to keep developers on Windows machines so having a local Linux image for testing is vital. I do exactly that for my own little projects – write code in MS Code and compile or execute it on a local Linux image – it works brilliantly.

Maintaining the NT kernel for internal use on specific hardware platforms makes sense, things like office are irrelevant – that sort of stuff is moving to the cloud and can be recompiled for difference platforms or OSes – the thing developers are tied to (due to intellectual investment) is the .NET framework – not the OS. Most Azure customers deploy Linux applications and microservices – mainly to leave options open for switching to other service providers such as AWS. The Windows part of Azure is not really tied to future desktop development. As for other important platforms, I wouldn’t bet against this or the next Xbox being the last physical Xbox – maintaining a hardware platform is expensive and the consoles are often sold at a loss - the future for gaming is cloud-rendering of the games, this means you can produce platform-independent games that are playable on almost any hardware – Xbox will become a bunch of server farms – the only Xbox hardware you’ll require will be a controller, your remotely-rendered game can be streamed to your TV, laptop, tablet, projector or VR headset. The world is changing fast and it does not require sophisticated or powerful local computing.
Old 12th June 2020
  #56
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I see this as very bad for general-purpose single-thread performance.

Not everything can be offloaded to a special chip (e.g. machine learning execution) or highly parallelized. And even if so, 8 cores ARM isn't that much total GP power.

This has the potential to make me re-think OSX as my main laptop platform. I don't want to buy an Intel macbook air and be cut off security fixes in 4 years. I just wish that my Thinkpads ("Stinkpads" rather, right now) would perform their duties a bit better.
Old 12th June 2020
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scragend View Post
The world is changing fast and it does not require sophisticated or powerful local computing.
It sure does. And I guess some people learned the that last months that infrastructure collapse fast and in unpredicted ways.
Old 12th June 2020
  #58
Gear Addict
Also, I think there is one piece maybe different with this transition. They have had a platform to test for a long time. They likely have been testing on an iPad for years. So hopefully they can simplify the transition. When Mac went 64bit only last year it took plugin developers about 3 months to get going.
I do wonder if there will be ArmAUx as a new component...
I would love a fan less iMac, 2 TB HD and 64 gigs in a 27” as base. IMac Pro 8Tb and 1 Tb ram in a 42” XDR monitor would be awesome.
Old 12th June 2020
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seclusion View Post
I would love a fan less iMac.
I know the iMac Pro has a fan but I’ve never heard it come on while actually working. I never had the regular iMac or had the opportunity to work on one but I hear stories of people complaining about the fan all time. Sometimes I’ll be running the cpu meter in Ableton on the verge of bringing my iMac Pro to its knees in a mastering session(would happen through mixing session as well but I can freeze/unfreeze), then will feel the back of the iMac Pro and feel it’s getting fairly hot(not too crazy though)but have never in 2 years heard the fan come on when actually working. Only when doing a system and diagnostic check/test(trouble shooting something else) that runs everything I think it came on but that’s it.

I know the cooling system on the new Mac Pro looks insane. Is the fan noticeable on those?

You think these new arm chips will run less hot in a desktop configuration?
Old 12th June 2020
  #60
Gear Addict
 

So this thread seems to have different opinions on how the Arm chips will perform. Some people are saying that the new chips or system will not out perform the current model for Pro audio work, and others including Apple talk like it’s going to be more efficient and powerful than the current system all around. Is it possible that these chips will be better/smoother for Pro audio/daw/video editing/some cgi production and so on? I just don’t see how Apple could find it a smart move to ditch these consumers. There’s a level of prestige being able to to cater to high end users as well as normal average everyday people(which as a whole prob generate more money).

I just don’t see Apple completely falling back in performance when these chips come out. I’m almost sure that these chips will perform as good or not slightly better than whatever Apple has as in its latest release. Obviously there might be some bugs to work out and so on but companies like to stay on the cutting-edge, even if it’s not the bread and butter it might someday be and abandoning that progress is bad for business.

I’m not a huge fan of the new Mac Pro pro pricing to performance, as well as single core ratings and all that, but you have to admit that they really did go above and beyond from previous builds, and I just don’t see them stopping that progress in the future. There’s something about pushing the edge of what and how powerful you can get even though it might now be your bread and butter, again, someday it might be.
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