The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Apple to announce ARM chips for all Macs
Old 1 week ago
  #511
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio View Post
Meltdown and Spectre are really cool exploits, and they are a whole new class of exploits. I don't think there will ever be a real fix for cache miss timing attacks, unless people are willing to allow nondeterministic timing. Which I think a lot of people are; adding plenty of jitter onto the clock foils these attacks reasonably well but it also would be a disaster for people trying to do audio work. I think no matter what kind of processor you have you're going be be stuck with some variant on these, unless you're willing to run on a vax or something with no cache prefetch at all.
--scott
At least some of this types of problem can be changed with fixes in the microcode, But microcode is a CISC thing. Arm is a RISC and have very small possibilities to get fixes. However in this case Intel could not fix it so it needed to be done in software and that causes performance problems. (extra free performance gain for marketing when the HW bug is removed so software can run as it should)
Old 1 week ago
  #512
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
WTF?
I'm with you on that.

Eeenywho...I'm sure everyone will have an opinion on this, but here's an opinion from someone who gets paid to have at least somewhat informed opinions. Are these opinions "better" than yours? Maybe not. But if this columnist was waaaayy off most of the time, he probably wouldn't have a paying job in a leading tech magazine.

https://www.macworld.com/article/356...right-now.html

(There's a similar column in a leading PC-focused magazine, but I can't find it right now. It might have been PC World, but I can't find the article on the site. It basically says the same thing. And even though many of these magazines share articles, these two opinion pieces weren't exactly the same, as far as I remember.)

Also, Arm-based Macs Won't support Boot Camp. If you want to run Windows 10 in virtualization, you'll need the Arm version of Windows 10. In other news: Microsoft doesn't sell the Arm version of Win10 directly to customers.
https://www.pcmag.com/news/arm-based...apple-confirms

I think it's very interesting what Apple's doing, and I hope it works out well for them. But I honestly hope it works out better for Apple's customers.

Steve
Old 1 week ago
  #513
Lives for gear
 
Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Hey Stevo; hope you're well, mate.

Yeah, WTF indeed.

Of course I agree with Macworld's declaration. Gonna wait even 'though I've been hangin' to replace my 2012 cheese grater and saving for years for the upgrade. Hopefully the Mac Pro "line" will come well within the 2-year limit. It's gonna be a long wait either way.
Old 1 week ago
  #514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
Hey Stevo; hope you're well, mate.

Yeah, WTF indeed.

Of course I agree with Macworld's declaration. Gonna wait even 'though I've been hangin' to replace my 2012 cheese grater and saving for years for the upgrade. Hopefully the Mac Pro "line" will come well within the 2-year limit. It's gonna be a long wait either way.
I'm hanging in there, my friend. (Check with me again after the "Whatever Apple Decides Is Great For Me!" crowd chimes in and we'll see how I'm faring then.) Hope you're staying safe, too!

And for the fanbois, again, please understand that I really hope this works for Apple. I have nothing against Apple. They make some great stuff. I'm just more concerned about the end-users, and what they will have to deal with during yet another transition.

Steve
Old 1 week ago
  #515
Gear Addict
 
kludgeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by signalpudding View Post
Some of the issues people have are wild to me. Your phone can't update anymore after 3 years? What else on the planet do you get updated for free 10 years down the line? It's obviously nice when it's possible to run the latest software many years after you bought something but there's no way that should be expected. I think something like 2-3 years of supported updates is absolutely reasonable. If your device can get updated longer that's great but if not then don't update it. Sometimes if you want new things then you have to buy new things.
My Ampex is nearly forty years old and there are still new third-party upgrades being made available. Hell, with a machine like this, maybe I don't need a computer at all.
--scott
Old 1 week ago
  #516
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
You must not have been paying attention, and why would you? People were constantly bringing up that iphones weren't waterproof. In no way is it a weak argument that Apple were going to have to compete there.
No need to pay attention, only a moron would want or be prepared to pay for a waterproof phone.

Dumbest thing I've ever heard of, and a complete waste of human ingenuity.
Old 1 week ago
  #517
Gear Addict
 

I'll try to bring us back to the original topic here... Pro Tools Expert website just published a nice article where they talk to an audio plugin developer and he has some interesting things to share about the porting to Apple Silicon. The one that raised my eyebrows is that it won't be possible to mix and match DAWs and plugins to run native AND x64 at the same time. What this means is that if your DAW (like Logic, for instance) is running on ARM, you won't be able to load any x64 emulated plugins. Everything will have to be ported. And, of course, there is also no guarantee that a DAW running under Rosetta would be able to run everything smoothly as well.

He reckons that audio might be **the** most affected branch of the pro industry, because of the huge complexity of software that is required to run together, ie DAWs and plugs.

He also says that the whole development of new plugins might be halted for a while, because everyone will be focusing on porting as of now. So MAYBE we will go through a drought of new releases, and possibly we might end up being charged at the end of the process in order to update our plugs. It won't be a matter of a day or two like Apple wanted us to believe.

Finally, he reckons that because the architecture of Apple's SOCs, where CPU and GPU shares the same memory pool, it might be possible to finally being able to offload some of the work plugins do to the GPU. That'd be awesome, but remains to be seen if this will be possible at first.

Here's the link. Peace.

https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/pro...eid=deba81cf04
Old 1 week ago
  #518
Gear Addict
 
kludgeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
At least some of this types of problem can be changed with fixes in the microcode, But microcode is a CISC thing. Arm is a RI
"Fixes" like randomizing clock timing and randomizing cache lookups.

Either you give up deterministic timing, or you give up performance. Which do you want?

As an audio guy, I'm perfectly happy to give up performance for determinism but most general appliance computer users will feel quite the opposite.
--scott
Old 1 week ago
  #519
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio View Post
My Ampex is nearly forty years old and there are still new third-party upgrades being made available. Hell, with a machine like this, maybe I don't need a computer at all.
--scott
Sure but Ampex isn't adding new features anymore and if they did you'd expect to have to pay for it just like these third parties expect people to pay. And third parties can and do still write new software for old operating systems. People are still publishing games written in Basic for Commodore systems. What I am pointing to is the expectation of free upgrades many years down the line. Of course things like software security and bugs in the initial software are a concern and I believe it is reasonable to expect companies writing software to supply these kinds of updates for free for a period of time. That's different than expecting a company to provide you a free software update 5-10 years down the line so you can run a piece of software that wasn't even conceived until 5-10 years after the system you want to run it was released. My wife has a car from 2011 and I'd like to run Android Auto on it to listen to music and show navigation but Android Auto didn't exist then. Should I be mad that Subaru doesn't support this on the car and expect a free update for it?
Old 1 week ago
  #520
Lives for gear
 
Yutaka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by signalpudding View Post
Sure but Ampex isn't adding new features anymore and if they did you'd expect to have to pay for it just like these third parties expect people to pay. And third parties can and do still write new software for old operating systems. People are still publishing games written in Basic for Commodore systems. What I am pointing to is the expectation of free upgrades many years down the line. Of course things like software security and bugs in the initial software are a concern and I believe it is reasonable to expect companies writing software to supply these kinds of updates for free for a period of time. That's different than expecting a company to provide you a free software update 5-10 years down the line so you can run a piece of software that wasn't even conceived until 5-10 years after the system you want to run it was released.
RME still writes drivers for HDSP9632, which I bought in 2003 for a Mac G5. I use it in my current PC w/ W10, and the driver is from April 2020, 100% compatible with the W10 May update. I think RME wrote nice new mixer a few years ago, because it looks different from the old version. They never charged anything for updates.
Old 1 week ago
  #521
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yutaka View Post
RME still writes drivers for HDSP9632, which I bought in 2003 for a Mac G5. I use it in my current PC w/ W10, and the driver is from April 2020, 100% compatible with the W10 May update. I think RME wrote nice new mixer a few years ago, because it looks different from the old version. They never charged anything for updates.
It's great when companies are able to do this. I use RME as well and that's something I like about them, but I don't expect every company to do that and then get angry when they don't. RME has enough customers using that particular interface to justify updating the driver.

But imagine you were still using that G5 right now. Would you be mad at RME if their newest version of TotalMix didn't work on the G5? Do you think Apple should have their latest OS working on a G5? Cause that's what we're talking about. (EDIT: or that's what I was talking about, I can't speak for or keep up with what everyone else is saying in this thread)
Old 1 week ago
  #522
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yutaka View Post
RME still writes drivers for HDSP9632, which I bought in 2003 for a Mac G5. I use it in my current PC w/ W10, and the driver is from April 2020, 100% compatible with the W10 May update. I think RME wrote nice new mixer a few years ago, because it looks different from the old version. They never charged anything for updates.
I have a FF800, and yeah I have no intention of selling it. Firewire is dead, RME are not offering any upgrade to the hardware. I can of course buy third party converters etc. and they still write drivers for it. It's also a $2,000 interface, new 15 years ago. It's the price of the lower tier of high end laptops.

Metic Halo OTOH are offering hardware upgrades to thunderbolt for their 20 year old firewire 2882 etc. They're at this time mac only though.

I wish every company was as interested in backwards compatibility as Metric Halo, but I think they're the only example I know of where they offer both modern drivers and hardware upgrades.
Old 1 week ago
  #523
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavestation1 View Post
No need to pay attention, only a moron would want or be prepared to pay for a waterproof phone.

Dumbest thing I've ever heard of, and a complete waste of human ingenuity.
You must not live in a place where it rains 8 months out of the year, or with small children who would happily dunk your phone in a glass of water or (god forbid) the toilet.
Old 1 week ago
  #524
Lives for gear
 
Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelpv View Post
I'll try to bring us back to the original topic here... Pro Tools Expert website just published a nice article where they talk to an audio plugin developer and he has some interesting things to share about the porting to Apple Silicon. The one that raised my eyebrows is that it won't be possible to mix and match DAWs and plugins to run native AND x64 at the same time.
That's true for in-process plug-ins, but Apple has been pushing for out-of-process extension models so there's some hope for those who have already done this work for iOS. Specially, this is part of the push to Audio Unit v3 which will let you freely mix and match Rosetta emulated x86-64 and native arm64 DAW and plug-ins. It also has stability and security benefits but it does come with some additional overhead. One common model is to have the host in one process, all native extensions in a second process, and all translated x86-64 extensions in a third process.
Old 1 week ago
  #525
Gear Addict
 
uOpt's Avatar
The RME Fireface 800 is really bullet-proof since you can fully operate it with open source software and drivers in Linux.

Doesn't mean you need to switch to Linux, but this allows porting of those drivers to windows if people are so inclined.
Old 1 week ago
  #526
Lives for gear
Correcting myself here, OWC’s latest TB3 hub is windows comparable, includes FW800. So with a converter older windows laptops should be able to run FW audio cards.
Old 1 week ago
  #527
Lives for gear
 
PeteJames's Avatar
Have any major or minor third party developers talked about this transition and how they intend to handle it or if they're currently working on developing for it (or will do soon)? Companies like Ableton, Bitwig, Steinberg, Native Instruments, Spectrasonics, U-he etc
Old 1 week ago
  #528
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteJames View Post
Have any major or minor third party developers talked about this transition and how they intend to handle it or if they're currently working on developing for it (or will do soon)? Companies like Ableton, Bitwig, Steinberg, Native Instruments, Spectrasonics, U-he etc
U-He, Steinberg, N have all stated they're working on it already. I'm curious about Bitwig, MOTU, Ableton for sure.

Random guess is Bitwig and Cubase are the first to port. Steinberg are the big mystery here, what is it going to mean for VST 2, UB2 versions are possible I guess, but definitely no native verison after UB2 is depreciated.

Ableton have two disparate products to port in Max/MSP and Live, it's going to probably take them a long time. MOTU are small, so DP11 with Arm support is probably going to be forever.

Who knows with Studio One, Reaper, Pro Tools etc.?
Old 1 week ago
  #529
Gear Nut
Henry Jones Sr....You're spending a ton of words trying to justify something. Switch to Windows. Stop trying to shame others for not being like you. Because yes this is what you're doing. Not to mention you only seem to surface in these Mac threads which I find a bit odd.
Old 1 week ago
  #530
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by machinesworking View Post
U-He, Steinberg, N have all stated they're working on it already. I'm curious about Bitwig, MOTU, Ableton for sure.

Random guess is Bitwig and Cubase are the first to port. Steinberg are the big mystery here, what is it going to mean for VST 2, UB2 versions are possible I guess, but definitely no native verison after UB2 is depreciated.

Ableton have two disparate products to port in Max/MSP and Live, it's going to probably take them a long time. MOTU are small, so DP11 with Arm support is probably going to be forever.

Who knows with Studio One, Reaper, Pro Tools etc.?
Justin, the lead Reaper dev has mentioned on the Cockos forums that they already have an aarch64 port on Linux, and that he doesn't imagine it will take long to get a working port on the new Apple machines. That being said, he said he will likely wait for a mainstream release of the machines to port, meaning he doesn't yet have a dev kit.

I reached out to EastWest support regarding the matter on Facebook, and their support mentioned there was nor formal announcement, but they imagine a port was likely since a large part of their customer base are Mac users. I'll wait for an official announcement on that though.
Old 1 week ago
  #531
Lives for gear
 
Lady Gaia's Avatar
I received word in email from FabFilter that they're expecting their plug-ins are just a recompile away, since they already support AUv3 and iOS.
Old 1 week ago
  #532
Lives for gear
 
ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
Henry Jones Sr....You're spending a ton of words trying to justify something. Switch to Windows. Stop trying to shame others for not being like you. Because yes this is what you're doing. Not to mention you only seem to surface in these Mac threads which I find a bit odd.
Lots of sensitive apple lovers in this thread, can't abide any sort of criticsm.... Seems to bring out the Karen in folks. But, hey, from what I have seen, Henry is more than anxious to do what you tell him to do...
Old 1 week ago
  #533
Lives for gear
 

I'm not worried about this transition at all, I've been through all of them in the past.

I see a lot of assumptions and conclusions being made and spoken about as if they are fact. They are not. Especially when it comes to Apple related things, a lot of the predictions made turn out to be 180 degrees wrong and false.

I have my own predictions.

1. The transition will be smooth for the most part. I've done it a few times in the past already without any major hassles.

2. It will be easy for any developers to port their software from Intel to Arm. Some developers already have iOS versions of their software, so developers have been doing this for many years already. Current iOS apps will be compatible with the new architecture.

3. Apple Silicon will eventually surpass the most powerful Intel chips and will be killer for doing Audio.

4. I enjoy using Logic today on my current hardware and I will still enjoy using it in a few years time from now on future hardware.

If anybody is overly concerned about the transition or loses sleep at night over it or needs to vent in long winding posts on forums, then I suggest that they go switch to something else and save themselves from any unnecessary headaches. It's probably not a good idea to work on music while having a headache.
Old 1 week ago
  #534
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX-80 View Post
I'm not worried about this transition at all, I've been through all of them in the past.

I see a lot of assumptions and conclusions being made and spoken about as if they are fact. They are not. Especially when it comes to Apple related things, a lot of the predictions made turn out to be 180 degrees wrong and false.

I have my own predictions.

1. The transition will be smooth for the most part. I've done it a few times in the past already without any major hassles.

2. It will be easy for any developers to port their software from Intel to Arm. Some developers already have iOS versions of their software, so developers have been doing this for many years already. Current iOS apps will be compatible with the new architecture.

3. Apple Silicon will eventually surpass the most powerful Intel chips and will be killer for doing Audio.

4. I enjoy using Logic today on my current hardware and I will still enjoy using it in a few years time from now on future hardware.

If anybody is overly concerned about the transition or loses sleep at night over it or needs to vent in long winding posts on forums, then I suggest that they go switch to something else and save themselves from any unnecessary headaches. It's probably not a good idea to work on music while having a headache.
Preach brother.
Old 1 week ago
  #535
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
Lots of sensitive apple lovers in this thread, can't abide any sort of criticsm.... Seems to bring out the Karen in folks. But, hey, from what I have seen, Henry is more than anxious to do what you tell him to do...
Well-founded criticism I'm good with, Apple certainly isn't perfect. But three posts to say he wants to switch to Windows and the rest of us who don't are dumb was a bit much.

This last paragraph was a hoot:

Quote:
Anyway, for those who are 'married' to the Apple ecosystem. It's probably prudent to point out that you're not 'staying with' the Mac by hanging on for this new transition, you are transitioning to a new computing platform. And if you are doing that, you may as well consider transitioning to Windows where freedom abounds and performance to price ratio routinely smashes every single benchmark available for the Mac.
Transitioning to the Apple Silicon-based Macs (which I won't be doing for years) is not switching to a different computer platform. I can pretty much guarantee that most of the software I rely on on a daily basis will make the transition just fine. Sure there might be some casualties, I'll have to live with it when it's an issue. I don't care what the performance to price ratio is, I don't want to switch to Windows. I use it on an almost daily basis for my job and it's not something I want more of in my life. The 5k iMac I'm typing this on is simply the best computer I've ever used, I don't want a Dell or any other Windows box for my personal system.

Henry wants all of us to consider switching to Windows because he feels like if we don't there must be something wrong with his decision. Bunch of nonsense. Use what you want and let the rest of us do the same.
Old 1 week ago
  #536
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Style Guide View Post
... I don't think there is a single Windows desktop that comes with built in Thunderbolt ports. You have to add a PCIe card that is specifically made to work with that computer's motherboard. And then you usually get only 1 or 2 Thunderbolt ports. I wish more PC manufacturers would add 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports to their desktops. Because Thunderbolt (compared to USB or PCIe cards) is the way to go for audio, IMO.
The way audio devices use it, Thunderbolt is PCIe over the wire.

In fact, in the driver spec (for Windows), you just implement one more small interface for hot plug/unplug. Otherwise, it's all PCIe.

The PCIe add-on cards for motherboards do well. Most folks don't need four ports because you can daisy chain devices, when the device manufacturer decides to include that.

Pete
Old 1 week ago
  #537
666
Lives for gear
 
666's Avatar
I've grown tired of the Apple method of redundancy & overpriced 'pro' machines, so I'm slowly transitioning to PC. Moved my video rig over last year, and i'm starting to set it up for music, and have moved all my actual work over asides from emails and listening to music, so when this iMac dies all my work will be PC based. Will keep the macbook to open legacy apps & old logic projects. I also like the iPhone / OSX merging for lightweight work like emails and organisation, so will probably keep that setup. These ARM chips will probably be great for the laptop line.

I regret leaving it so long to move my main machine over, such a relief not battling a lack of power all the time.
Old 1 week ago
  #538
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX-80 View Post
I have my own predictions.

1. The transition will be smooth for the most part. I've done it a few times in the past already without any major hassles.

2. It will be easy for any developers to port their software from Intel to Arm. Some developers already have iOS versions of their software, so developers have been doing this for many years already. Current iOS apps will be compatible with the new architecture.

3. Apple Silicon will eventually surpass the most powerful Intel chips and will be killer for doing Audio.

4. I enjoy using Logic today on my current hardware and I will still enjoy using it in a few years time from now on future hardware.

If anybody is overly concerned about the transition or loses sleep at night over it or needs to vent in long winding posts on forums, then I suggest that they go switch to something else and save themselves from any unnecessary headaches. It's probably not a good idea to work on music while having a headache.
I don't for a minute think that it will be easy for developers. We all have weird areas we balk in. Native Instruments come to mind, OS 9 to OS X was hard on them, I had Komplete Care™ their subscription model they tried for one year, when they could not meet their own deadlines for Intel ready they ended up having to extend bonuses to all of us. Codewarrior was used instead of getting Apples overt hints to switch to Xcode etc. I don't think they will be as caught this time, but you can bet some critical company or another will be. I use dozens of manufacturers plug ins and expect a long wait from a few.

On the other hand I think you're right about it being a good platform for audio out the door, Logic and Final Cut are reported as already running natively on Arm chips so there's no reason it won't be. There's no way to know whether Apple will beat out Intel and AMD in pure speed, but the platform itself will be solid for music. Apple at least are not relying on the good graces of Steinberg to get audio and audio plug ins going on their computers.

I did the OS 9 to OS X, PPC to Intel switches and I'm merely a composer, not a businessman or recording studio owner. Which is a way to say I lost things, no Max MSP stand alone devices to speak of really made it to OS X, plenty of plug ins that did not translate, songs with missing parts that didn't reassemble with the 'new' versions. It wasn't a total disaster, but it wasn't a walk in the park either. This time I don't plan on selling my Intel Mac Pro here, there will always be the original system to fall back on.

Besides the occasional trolling by angry Windows True Believers™, and confused people taking this transition personally, this thread has been pretty polite and interesting. I definitely stand somewhere between rose colored glasses and the sky is falling, and plan on treading cautiously into the future. The first version of almost any new bit of hardware with new designs etc. is not the one to get, it's always logical to wait for the second iteration. Time will tell if I'm right, and if personally I can wait myself.
Old 1 week ago
  #539
First reports of the the Apple Developer Transition Kit have started leaking out. It is running an A12z ARM 4 core chip - the same used in a 2 year old iPad Pro. Geekbench'ing around 850 for single core, and just shy of 3000 for multicore performance running under emulation with Rosetta 2. That's somewhere around single core performance of a 2013 Trashcan running a 10 core 3Ghz CPU, and an i5 3ghz quad 2014 iMac for multicore performance.

Not entirely relevant, as the A12z probably won't feature in any new Mac. It has become open season on Microsoft though. Apparently the DTK setup with a two year old Apple ARM chip in it is running Windows 10 under emulation with far better performance than Microsoft's current Surface X tablets are running it natively.

Last edited by LDStudios; 1 week ago at 08:30 AM..
Old 1 week ago
  #540
Gear Addict
 

Yeah, DTK is more a prototype.
📝 Reply
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
🖨️ Show Printable Version
✉️ Email this Page
🔍 Search thread
♾️ Similar Threads
🎙️ View mentioned gear