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Apple to announce ARM chips for all Macs
Old 1 week ago
  #481
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BCProject's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mininoyz View Post
Are you sure it's the same Chris ? I guess no, Audio Damage isn't Airwindows, and ChrisJ from Airwindows said he won't update even to Catalina, but maybe am I wrong or he will change he's mind.
Aww crap. Yeah - I was wondering why the site was saying I needed to be a patron to post (when I am a patron for ChrisJ/AirWindows).

Well - that sucks. I guess he’s happy with the customers he has and doesn’t need/want any more.
Old 1 week ago
  #482
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Dave_Ionic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
The comments to the rumor undercut the narrative. Most persuasive is the necessity of years of planning and work to prepare for a cpu migration.
There is most likely a lot of truth in this. Apple walked on IBM PowerPC aka G series because they and Motorola could not provide Apple with enough product.
Just like when Dave Smith of Sequential Circuits dumped the EMU’s chips( yes Emu made SSM) in favor of Curtis Chips because EMU could not keep enough stock of SSM’s for Prophet 5’s which were selling like hotcakes, and of course Dave no longer wanted to pay EMU royalties on the Polyphonic keyboard design. Which they also had to license..

I digress slightly with the analogies. Ya Skylake while fast has had issues and its funny because that French guy who make those comments was its chief designer and he is longer at Intel. I wonder why?

Apple was handing in a lot of bug reports about Skylake and was not happy about it.

Also because of these bug issues it has slowed down Intels move to 7nm


Intel has been going through some transitional rough waters after having gone through several CEO’s in the last 6 years.
None the less Apple leaving the fold is not really that big of deal for Intel. Its bigger for Apple.
It was more important for Apple to have chips that ran well and were not buggy or did not hit thermal walls.
Which brings us to Arm. A lot of people want to talk about ARM as being something great and new.
My Father built the fastest RISC chips in Silicon Valley in the 80’s and 90’s these chips ran rings around damn near everything at the time. They were in government stuff i.e planes and what not. Silicon Graphics computers , Cray Computers, plus a few other high end names that have since been bought up or just disappeared.
Dad retired in 2002 he passed 3 years ago R.I.P. but the thing I remember him telling me and he was a big fan of Intel and a shareholder. ( Yes he came out of Fairchild as well and was friends with Andy Grove and Gordon Moore) . Was RISC chips were very good at single ended single purpose processes. I.E. put this chip in a Plane and let it run a plane.
He laughed about Arm as they were only a licensing company that licensed a poorly designed RISC chip. Now the companies that have licensed the RISC design from them have started to take it a a whole other level. Yes he did own and use a Iphone and Ipad before he passed.
Apple has done brilliant things with the Arm license something he would have really wanted to take a look at.
Though in the end out of all these pages of discussion it can boiled down to a few short and simple points.

1. This transition will take several years.
2. Buying a new Mac right now is nothing to fear as they will not be obsolete in two years, (Hell modern Macs last an average of 5 years or more these days.I remember when we had to upgrade them every two years because the software kept on getting better than the machine., That is no longer an issue. )
3. This is not a death blow for Intel and in fact its going to be interesting. Look up Nanowire and Intel for more about that.,
4. You have nothing to fear about this and your software will wind up working or you will find a way to keep on doing what you do. The sky is not falling.
Old 1 week ago
  #483
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Ionic View Post
...Ya Skylake while fast has had issues and its funny because that French guy who make those comments was its chief designer and he is longer at Intel. I wonder why? ...
Do you have personal knowledge of that--I have heard this anecdotally from others but nothing specific? I am curious if other intel chips had less bugs, or if that is part of the normal process. Also, I imagined intel had a very thorough cpu test suite which they have developed over the years, so surprised bugs get through to customer samples.

Also, my sense is that intel has too many retail cpu product lines, I read articles on a regular basis, but I can't keep up, and I suspect that too many products leads to a dilution of QA and marketing and increases costs. I would have to start a whole research process if I wanted to get a new one as there are too many options floating around, and in my opinon, too many new chip sockets requiring new motherboards as well. This all takes away from economies of scale.

Yes, I think they lost their way leadership-wise and its showing more and more. They have a lot of market share momentum, but could be like a titanic with a slow leak if they don't get their "**it" screwed down and get some discipline while competing with AMD.
Old 1 week ago
  #484
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Dave_Ionic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
Do you have personal knowledge of that--I have heard this anecdotally from others but nothing specific? I am curious if other intel chips had less bugs, or if that is part of the normal process. Also, I imagined intel had a very thorough cpu test suite which they have developed over the years, so surprised bugs get through to customer samples.

Also, my sense is that intel has too many retail cpu product lines, I read articles on a regular basis, but I can't keep up, and I suspect that too many products leads to a dilution of QA and marketing and increases costs. I would have to start a whole research process if I wanted to get a new one as there are too many options floating around, and in my opinon, too many new chip sockets requiring new motherboards as well. This all takes away from economies of scale.

Yes, I think they lost their way leadership-wise and its showing more and more. They have a lot of market share momentum, but could be like a titanic with a slow leak if they don't get their "**it" screwed down and get some discipline while competing with AMD.
Personal knowledge of the the fact that the chip designer is no longer working for Intel or that he actually spoke up about the bugs like last week and how many times? It’s been written about on ZDNET where he was quoted. I have no doubt its factual knowledge that Skylake had bugs and issues. There were at least two security bug issues that got wide press. I also have no doubt that Apple was signing a lot of bug reports . Apple delayed releases of some computers because of it. They also limited quad cores for a period in 2016-2017. Its kinda interesting that we finally got quad cores in most of the laptops in the last year here. The fact that the Mini got stuck with dual cores from 2014-2017 and only got quad cores again in 2018 . Or the fact that you could not get a quad core in a Macbook Pro unless it was the utter top end machine. They were shipping dual core machines that were costing $1700 to start. Why, most likely because of all of these issues.
I follow the stuff to notice whats happening in the market. I also own stock in both companies so I pay attention. Oh and am not selling any of the stock in either company. I am long on both.


If you think Intel is going to get screwed by AMD you have no real knowledge of the semiconductor Industry outside of a laymans knowledge. AMD is doing some bright things right now but they do not have nearly half the ability to do stuff that Intel does. Intel owns their own chip fab. If they wanted to they could fab Apples chips for Apple because While Apple designs their chips they do not own a fab and currently go to TMSC for fab work,.
That was something my father and I discussed about 4 years ago. When Apple was going toe to toe with Samsung yet still using Samsung for some products and some chip fabbing.

Like I said look up Nanowire , Intel has had some issues and bugs but it is not gong to bring them down just like AMD will not bring them down. They own the server market and they are working hard in that area to keep it.
I said this earlier and I will say it again Apple walking away from Intel is not that big of a deal. It is not good for Intel for the sake of a being in a Premium brand but the numbers for sales to Apple add up to about 10% of their business max.

It barely moved the ticker on their stock. The Covid resurgence fears moved it more.
Old 1 week ago
  #485
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Ionic View Post
Personal knowledge of the the fact that the chip designer is no longer working for Intel or that he actually spoke up about the bugs like last week and how many times? It’s been written about on ZDNET where he was quoted....

If you think Intel is going to get screwed by AMD you have no real knowledge of the semiconductor Industry outside of a laymans knowledge. ..
Ok, you have no personal knowledge beyond the published reports on skylake testing. I am interested in the specific details that were in my post.
Old 1 week ago
  #486
Gear Addict
 
kludgeaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
Arm is not free from the problems either the infamous MELTDOWN (CVE-2017-5754) and SPECTRE (CVE-2017-5715) was there too. And
they are the worst we have seen in modern times. And there is lot of errata from Arm too. I would say that they are about the same.
Meltdown and Spectre are really cool exploits, and they are a whole new class of exploits. I don't think there will ever be a real fix for cache miss timing attacks, unless people are willing to allow nondeterministic timing. Which I think a lot of people are; adding plenty of jitter onto the clock foils these attacks reasonably well but it also would be a disaster for people trying to do audio work. I think no matter what kind of processor you have you're going be be stuck with some variant on these, unless you're willing to run on a vax or something with no cache prefetch at all.
--scott
Old 1 week ago
  #487
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TAFKAT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
The thing about Arm is you don't have to develop a CPU from scratch. You license the core and so have a reasonable chunk done for you.

IMO, the change is about two things:
  • Battery life
  • Control

Performance may eventually get there, but that's not what it's about, at least for a bit.

Pete
100% Pete !

I agree re the key motivations for the change. The performance per say that they are focusing this shift over is performance per watt , and also about wrestling back complete hardware control after the horse bolted when the barn door was left open with the Intel shift.

Not sure why the usual suspects are circling the wagons !

We really don't have any clear indicator as yet to what Apple will deliver with their ARM variant until the rubber hits the road, all of these claims of large % improvements over x86-64 and the apparent ease that the code transition is going to be, will play out very quickly when there is some product to actually do some Real World head to head comparative performance.

One thing that the Intel transition opened them up to, apart from the OSX-86 pimple on their butts, was the ability for the first time to be able to directly compare the Apple hardware against open hardware running their OS, which proved more than interesting for me when it was discovered that they had essentially hobbled their hardware for years. With the shift back to RISC/ARM and away from the traditional x86-64 CISC, its now come full circle back to being able to control that narrative.

They will either deliver outright performance that will rival/better the x86-64 Intel products, or they will dive back into the RDF , time will tell.

Personally I can't wait from them to complete the transition and release Intel from pandering to them as if they are the most significant factor. It will mean a more efficient and available channel and also less red tape with any future proprietary protocols , that can't be highkacked and hamstrung ,i.e, Lightpeak to TB1/2.

In the meantime I doubt Intel/AMD are going to be asleep at the wheel, Intel is best when its back is against the wall as it is now, and AMD will continue to bring the fight to them where they can.

It will be interesting to watch , if the circus of this thread is any indication, its going to be entertaining to say the least.

Old 1 week ago
  #488
And here I was about to replace my 2011 MBP. It still runs fine but I was drawn to the max 64GB RAM of the latest model. That and the vastly quieter operation. I may still get one, since we all know the ARM model will need a few models to pass.
Old 1 week ago
  #489
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uOpt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonejunkee View Post
And here I was about to replace my 2011 MBP. It still runs fine but I was drawn to the max 64GB RAM of the latest model. That and the vastly quieter operation. I may still get one, since we all know the ARM model will need a few models to pass.
The current Mac laptop lineup is not very quiet.
Old 1 week ago
  #490
Gear Nut
 

apple never seizes to amuse me: https://www.tomsguide.com/news/iphon...issing-feature
no more charger or ear pods in the box
Old 1 week ago
  #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sound joe View Post
apple never seizes to amuse me: https://www.tomsguide.com/news/iphon...issing-feature
no more charger or ear pods in the box
If the rumor is true, then good. Chargers are a waste.

Who doesn't have a drawer full of chargers, many unused?

Now people can choose to use whatever charger they want with their phone. Either one that they already have from before or they can go and buy whatever they want. Same goes for the ear pods.
Old 1 week ago
  #492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uOpt View Post
The current Mac laptop lineup is not very quiet.
That has a lot to do with Intel and Intel not being able to deliver.

That's why Apple is making this move, to not rely on Intel to deliver chips anymore.

I wonder how the first Apple Silicon Macbook will be, maybe it will be 100% silent, as in fanless.
Old 1 week ago
  #493
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX-80 View Post
If the rumor is true, then good. Chargers are a waste.

Who doesn't have a drawer full of chargers, many unused?

Now people can choose to use whatever charger they want with their phone. Either one that they already have from before or they can go and buy whatever they want. Same goes for the ear pods.
yes thank you apple for releasing from me the burden of having to use your crappy included accessories. Now we will have the freedom to buy whatever we want. Always looking out for whats best for the customer as always. No other company has the Courage apple does to make groundbreaking moves of removing useless things from phones like they did with the headphone jack for our benefit. Cant wait for this to also become a trend and other companies to follow. At last they will remove the charger and pods, soon hopefully they kill the stupid charging port and finally the box
Old 1 week ago
  #494
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX-80 View Post
I wonder how the first Apple Silicon Macbook will be, maybe it will be 100% silent, as in fanless.
I wouldn't be entirely shocked. The 12" MacBook was passively cooled and the performance was always a compromise as a result. It would be interesting to see what they could do with their own silicon in that form factor - even though it's not the product I'd be waiting for.
Old 1 week ago
  #495
Gear Maniac
 

This might be a great move for apple and consumers in the longish run but dear god Im going ot have to stay away from apple for this transition. The transition from PPC was awful and so much support got dropped so fast, some important programs to me at the time too. Im on a 2012 MPB and Ive been hankering to upgrade but might just switch to Windows instead of trying to deal with this. A new intel MPB would likely be useless in only a few years and Id want to see what happens to the early adopters of ARM macs before I jump in....
Old 1 week ago
  #496
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
I was just over on the MPC thread kind of questioning why people want to go Daw-less. Some guy talking about dragging out a HDD digital recorder mixer from the early 2000's to just completely get rid of updates and the computer in general.

I've been looking into getting a new laptop, mines from 2012, it's starting to show, but I'm going to wait it out. I've got a hot rodded 09 Mac pro that I've pretty much maxed out spec wise, VEP if it stutters and I need a few more VSTs from the MacBook. I stop attempting to buy and use everything, and stick with the admittedly out of hand amount of software I have now, and there's zero reason to upgrade besides gearlust.

I agree 100%/ Ive been thinking of going for a Zoom L20 for my next project and staying out of the DAW until mixing. And agree... im on a 2012 macbook but if Im honest the only impetus to "upgrade" it that Im used to buying a new computer about every 6 years. But Moores law has been kidna broken and this one is still plenty fast.
Old 1 week ago
  #497
Gear Addict
 
uOpt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX-80 View Post
If the rumor is true, then good. Chargers are a waste.

Who doesn't have a drawer full of chargers, many unused?

Now people can choose to use whatever charger they want with their phone. Either one that they already have from before or they can go and buy whatever they want. Same goes for the ear pods.
Your drawer of charger is unlikely to have USB-C chargers with > 5 V delivery. The new iphone needs a 19V/20W charger.

You might have them from Apple notebooks, but likely you still need them for the laptop.

Last edited by uOpt; 1 week ago at 03:07 AM..
Old 1 week ago
  #498
Gear Addict
 
uOpt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX-80 View Post
That has a lot to do with Intel and Intel not being able to deliver.

That's why Apple is making this move, to not rely on Intel to deliver chips anymore.

I wonder how the first Apple Silicon Macbook will be, maybe it will be 100% silent, as in fanless.
I dunno.

The 2020 Macbook Air makes quite a ruckus, and the (Intel) CPU is only 10 Watts TDP. Likely the rest of the system has at least 10 other watts, so even if Apple ARM has half the TDP it only goes down from 20 to 15 watts.
Old 1 week ago
  #499
Gear Maniac
I bet the larger iPhone charger is an option, the new phone will come with the usual smaller charger would be my guess.
The advancements from each gen iPhone/iPad are astounding, seeing the A14(?) improvements for the iPhone(in Sept) and iPad will give us a great indicator of what’s to come. Wonder if they could have more than one A14? Hmm
I’m trying to envision a 27” and 43” iPad and where you’d plug in the 3 prong cord...
Old 1 week ago
  #500
Quote:
Originally Posted by uOpt View Post
You drawer of charger is unlikely to have USB-C chargers with > 5 V delivery. The new iphone needs a 19V/20W charger.

You might have them from Apple notebooks, but likely you still need them for the laptop.
If it actually *needs* that for charging, that will be a real annoyance for those of us with USB charging built in to our cars.

I suspect it'll just charge faster.

At home, I use wireless charging for my phone. The lightning connector on my iPhone X is starting to go in any case.

Pete
Old 1 week ago
  #501
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sound joe View Post
yes thank you apple for releasing from me the burden of having to use your crappy included accessories. Now we will have the freedom to buy whatever we want. Always looking out for whats best for the customer as always. No other company has the Courage apple does to make groundbreaking moves of removing useless things from phones like they did with the headphone jack for our benefit. Cant wait for this to also become a trend and other companies to follow. At last they will remove the charger and pods, soon hopefully they kill the stupid charging port and finally the box
It's a good thing that we have the choice to give our money to whichever companies that we want, and to buy whichever products that we want.

If any company did something that upset me a lot, I'd probably use something else.
Old 1 week ago
  #502
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uOpt View Post
You drawer of charger is unlikely to have USB-C chargers with > 5 V delivery. The new iphone needs a 19V/20W charger.

You might have them from Apple notebooks, but likely you still need them for the laptop.
Your statement comes off as if fact, but nobody knows 100% sure what the new iPhone will be like or what it needs or not.

Yes, I've seen and read some of the rumors.

I use a 30 watt USB-C charger to charge my iPad Pro, but it doesn't "need" it. It'll just charge quicker with it.
Old 1 week ago
  #503
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX-80 View Post
It's a good thing that we have the choice to give our money to whichever companies that we want, and to buy whichever products that we want.

If any company did something that upset me a lot, I'd probably use something else.
Some would rather just complain here
Old 1 week ago
  #504
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
Some would rather just complain here
Some never used the products in the first place, but think it necessary to tell people about how bad the company is. In every post about Apple ever.
Old 1 week ago
  #505
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold P View Post
as quoted from the forum rules

4. We are tired of MAC vs. PC discussions. Threads like this will be automatically locked and/or deleted. If you continue to post these type of threads, after a warning, we may suspend your participation in the Music Computer forum.

MAC=apple

Intresting to see there is no mention of no trolling allowed!
This isn't a Mac vs PC thread.
Old 1 week ago
  #506
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold P View Post
I would not give the direct decendents of the devils reptilian illuminati bloodlines a penny of the money that they created out of thin air (commonly know as credit)...
There is just no end to this mac vs pc stuff...
Old 1 week ago
  #507
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold P View Post
as quoted from the forum rules

4. We are tired of MAC vs. PC discussions. Threads like this will be automatically locked and/or deleted. If you continue to post these type of threads, after a warning, we may suspend your participation in the Music Computer forum.

MAC=apple

Intresting to see there is no mention of no trolling allowed!
________________

https://archive.org/details/rolling-in-it
So after a few days and 6 posts here, you are ready to get on a soapbox and tell everybody here how it is. I for one am impressed....
Old 1 week ago
  #508
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

WTF?
Old 1 week ago
  #509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold P View Post
as quoted from the forum rules

4. We are tired of MAC vs. PC discussions. Threads like this will be automatically locked and/or deleted. If you continue to post these type of threads, after a warning, we may suspend your participation in the Music Computer forum.

MAC=apple

Intresting to see there is no mention of no trolling allowed!
________________

https://archive.org/details/rolling-in-it
You need to look in the main rules:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/faq....q_new_faq_item

Quote:
9. “Mac vs PC,” “Native vs DSP,” “Dongle vs Serial Number” and similar threads are strictly forbidden. In addition, “trolling” ‘Mac’ or ‘PC’ specific threads will not be tolerated (for example, if someone posts “what is the best PC for Pro Tools” please do not post “A Mac!”)
This is also an important one

Quote:
1. Only one user registration is permitted per person. The creation of multiple user IDs may cause ALL existing IDs to be suspended.
Pete
Old 1 week ago
  #510
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio View Post
Meltdown and Spectre are really cool exploits, and they are a whole new class of exploits. I don't think there will ever be a real fix for cache miss timing attacks, unless people are willing to allow nondeterministic timing. Which I think a lot of people are; adding plenty of jitter onto the clock foils these attacks reasonably well but it also would be a disaster for people trying to do audio work. I think no matter what kind of processor you have you're going be be stuck with some variant on these, unless you're willing to run on a vax or something with no cache prefetch at all.
--scott
At least some of this types of problem can be changed with fixes in the microcode, But microcode is a CISC thing. Arm is a RI
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