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Old 18th September 2019
  #2251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basehead617 View Post
One thing people keep glossing over - there is a HUGE difference between a guy with a mac mini and logic recording his band or even someone mixing 100 tracks of audio for a movie, and someone using a huge amount of ITB instruments and plugins.

Even the highest end workstations don't take long before a project like the latter require huge buffer sizes or break down altogether.

Computing power is still not at the point where massive ITB projects can ever be pain-free, even with the best machines money can by. Until they are, I'm not going to talk about a Mac Pro or any machine being 'overpowered' for audio - since that's my area of use.
What’d you do when there were only mere G4’s ten years ago? What about fifteen years ago when there weren’t even useable software instruments?
Old 18th September 2019
  #2252
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basehead617's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nd33 View Post
What’d you do when there were only mere G4’s ten years ago? What about fifteen years ago when there weren’t even useable software instruments?
Used much more primitive virtual instruments / plugins and fewer of them?

There was no Massive X, Keyscape, etc.
Old 18th September 2019
  #2253
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zephonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by basehead617 View Post
One thing people keep glossing over - there is a HUGE difference between a guy with a mac mini and logic recording his band or even someone mixing 100 tracks of audio for a movie, and someone using a huge amount of ITB instruments and plugins.

Even the highest end workstations don't take long before a project like the latter require huge buffer sizes or break down altogether.

Computing power is still not at the point where massive ITB projects can ever be pain-free, even with the best machines money can by. Until they are, I'm not going to talk about a Mac Pro or any machine being 'overpowered' for audio - since that's my area of use.
Yes. I have to believe anybody saying a Mini or MBP is enough for audio doesn’t use VI’s extensively. The new FX modules in Omnisphere are CPU hogs. If you want to run all of that at even a 128 buffer you’re gonna hit the limits pretty quick.
Old 18th September 2019
  #2254
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ponzi's Avatar
If the current mac pro cant handle the feature films, what are those people using?

The biggest setup I have seen is with junkieXL, rack mount computers, server architecture, but I dont have details.

It did occur to me that this nmp might be more convenient than rack mount, and maybe cost competitive. Those rack mount servers, we call pizza boxes, have hella fan noise. nmp might eliminate need for server closet.

As to what ran on less powerful comps—first midi sequencer driving hardware samplers. Hardware mixer to tape. Later, software samplers, lighter on cpu than computational vis. Also today vi tracks can be rendered and saved, frozen, to conserve cpu. While it is possible to overload any pc with vis and fx, no excuse for not being able to make great music by using less than can be imagined.
Old 18th September 2019
  #2255
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~ufo~'s Avatar
basehead617,

what you're saying is that there is a niche within a niche for which current computers are still not ample.
That's fine, there'll always be that.
My (2012 but really 2010) 3.33 6-core is still ample for me to mix 'normal' stereo with.
Granted, I'd freeze a few heavy plugs here and there, but it's powerful enough to be perfectly workable.
It's because my workflow changed and I now have my '2 bus' processing over 8-20 stereo buses, in stead of one, the CPU of my 9yo computer is now hindering me.

I totally get that if you compose with ****loads of VIs, that you can use any help you can get from the CPU.

I wouldn't say the new mac pro is overpowered for audio at all.
If anything it's underpowered for its price, especially on the 'low end' models.

My beef with it, is that you're paying a lot of money for high end video features (like the GPU and the afterburner card). That drives the price up considerably.
What does that afterburner card cost? 1k? 1.5k?
They should offer the Mac Pro without it and with a cheaper GPU, because not everyone is a video producer. If that would get that 8 Core Mac Pro down to 4.5k..... That would perhaps be acceptable for audio.

Still, when we're talking about audio I'm not at all convinced that the 8 Core Mac Pro would beat a tower with a 9900k I can build for 2k in parts.
If I throw in a few hundred more, I've got a 12 core X, a few hundred more, a 14 core, 18 core exc.

I can build an 18 core core X machine for less than HALF of what the 8 core Mac Pro costs.
So if you're worried about down time, I can build two of them to have full redundancy and still pay less than one 8 core mac pro.
Sure I'm comparing xeon architecture to prosumer core X architecture, but **** it... There's no Xeons in the MBP either. Int he iMac or Mac Mini. Plenty of pros use those as their daily machine. Putting a high end 8-18 core X chip in a well cooled tower will do fine. Hell, you can keep a spare CPU around, if you're scared of frying yours.

That's also the reality. The new Mac Pro not overpowered. I's clearly specced for video people, which (for most audio people) makes it over-specced in areas where they will see virtually no gains and under specced in areas where they would.
So not a lot of bang for buck at all for audio.

It's a cool computer, and it will run audio well, but it's way overpriced for what it will deliver. It is for a niche in the pro audio world.
The original cheese grater catered to the mainstream pro audio market.
They started below 3k, you could get a one step up (6 core in stead of quad) for about 3.5k.

This new Mac Pro might be killer at the high end for scoring composers, but the low end one up will be extremely expensive for the performance they offer.

That's the point.
The New Mac Pro is NOT overkill for audio, it's making your pay for expensive video **** you probably don't need, while not giving you the option to put that towards a processor upgrade in stead.
In all fairness, we don't know that yet.
It would be a great move if Apple made the afterburner card optional and have a cheaper video card option, maybe they can turn it into a relatively decent deal for audio.

Again, the new Mac Pro won't suck for audio, but its performance will not reflect its price. 6k for a relatively simple 8 core is not acceptable for audio in this day and age.
Old 18th September 2019
  #2256
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~ufo~ View Post
basehead617,

what you're saying is that there is a niche within a niche for which current computers are still not ample.
That's fine, there'll always be that.
My (2012 but really 2010) 3.33 6-core is still ample for me to mix 'normal' stereo with.
Granted, I'd freeze a few heavy plugs here and there, but it's powerful enough to be perfectly workable.
It's because my workflow changed and I now have my '2 bus' processing over 8-20 stereo buses, in stead of one, the CPU of my 9yo computer is now hindering me.

I totally get that if you compose with ****loads of VIs, that you can use any help you can get from the CPU.

I wouldn't say the new mac pro is overpowered for audio at all.
If anything it's underpowered for its price, especially on the 'low end' models.

My beef with it, is that you're paying a lot of money for high end video features (like the GPU and the afterburner card). That drives the price up considerably.
What does that afterburner card cost? 1k? 1.5k?
They should offer the Mac Pro without it and with a cheaper GPU, because not everyone is a video producer. If that would get that 8 Core Mac Pro down to 4.5k..... That would perhaps be acceptable for audio.

Still, when we're talking about audio I'm not at all convinced that the 8 Core Mac Pro would beat a tower with a 9900k I can build for 2k in parts.
If I throw in a few hundred more, I've got a 12 core X, a few hundred more, a 14 core, 18 core exc.

I can build an 18 core core X machine for less than HALF of what the 8 core Mac Pro costs.
So if you're worried about down time, I can build two of them to have full redundancy and still pay less than one 8 core mac pro.
Sure I'm comparing xeon architecture to prosumer core X architecture, but **** it... There's no Xeons in the MBP either. Int he iMac or Mac Mini. Plenty of pros use those as their daily machine. Putting a high end 8-18 core X chip in a well cooled tower will do fine. Hell, you can keep a spare CPU around, if you're scared of frying yours.

That's also the reality. The new Mac Pro not overpowered. I's clearly specced for video people, which (for most audio people) makes it over-specced in areas where they will see virtually no gains and under specced in areas where they would.
So not a lot of bang for buck at all for audio.

It's a cool computer, and it will run audio well, but it's way overpriced for what it will deliver. It is for a niche in the pro audio world.
The original cheese grater catered to the mainstream pro audio market.
They started below 3k, you could get a one step up (6 core in stead of quad) for about 3.5k.

This new Mac Pro might be killer at the high end for scoring composers, but the low end one up will be extremely expensive for the performance they offer.

That's the point.
The New Mac Pro is NOT overkill for audio, it's making your pay for expensive video **** you probably don't need, while not giving you the option to put that towards a processor upgrade in stead.
In all fairness, we don't know that yet.
It would be a great move if Apple made the afterburner card optional and have a cheaper video card option, maybe they can turn it into a relatively decent deal for audio.

Again, the new Mac Pro won't suck for audio, but its performance will not reflect its price. 6k for a relatively simple 8 core is not acceptable for audio in this day and age.
The afterburner and expensive graphics cards are optional on the Mac Pro. You can configure it with a RX580
Old 18th September 2019
  #2257
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
If the current mac pro cant handle the feature films, what are those people using?

The biggest setup I have seen is with junkieXL, rack mount computers, server architecture, but I dont have details.

It did occur to me that this nmp might be more convenient than rack mount, and maybe cost competitive. Those rack mount servers, we call pizza boxes, have hella fan noise. nmp might eliminate need for server closet.

As to what ran on less powerful comps—first midi sequencer driving hardware samplers. Hardware mixer to tape. Later, software samplers, lighter on cpu than computational vis. Also today vi tracks can be rendered and saved, frozen, to conserve cpu. While it is possible to overload any pc with vis and fx, no excuse for not being able to make great music by using less than can be imagined.
VE Pro with one or 2 slave machines usually... That said between updating all machines, and having to juggle that many more moving parts it's not a fun way to work. I'd love to never need a slave machine again...

It also depends on how someone works. Some people like to have thousands of instruments all in one template, others (like Joe Trapanese), use Logic's library. I like to build a master template with everything in one place, then farm it out to a few smaller satellite templates based on niches I typically work in...

I also do things like have discreet sound and texture design templates that I use to make samples and instruments in my down time so I don't waste time hunting for things.. Time is a lot more valuable... (Something a network slave doesn't necessarily lend itself well to when you find yourself needing to update, a drive goes down, etc. But someone like JXL also has hired guns to handle the grunt work for him...)

My hackintosh is handling projects that were crushing my Mac Pro last year... With 200 instances of orchestral and/or heavily scripted kontakt instruments playing back MIDI simultaneously at a buffer of 128, CPU maxed out between 50 and 60% in Logic, and showed about 35-40% in activity monitor. So far I haven't hit the ceiling, haven't found a need for a slave machine since building it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~ufo~ View Post
I wouldn't say the new mac pro is overpowered for audio at all.
If anything it's underpowered for its price, especially on the 'low end' models.
Totally agree... It should start out with 10 cores and 1TB for that price.
Old 18th September 2019
  #2258
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~ufo~'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekwipt View Post
The afterburner and expensive graphics cards are optional on the Mac Pro. You can configure it with a RX580
I did not know the afterburner card was optional. Where’s that info?

And what is the price with the RX580X without afterburner?
They said it would start at 6k, I figured that was with RX580X with afterburner.
If it’s without, that would be an even worse price.
Old 18th September 2019
  #2259
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zedsdeadbaby View Post
...My hackintosh is handling projects that were crushing my Mac Pro last year...
Thank you for the very informative explanation, having heard all that, does the new mac pro look like a candidate to replace your hackintosh? I think I know the answer.
Old 18th September 2019
  #2260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~ufo~ View Post
I did not know the afterburner card was optional. Where’s that info?

And what is the price with the RX580X without afterburner?
They said it would start at 6k, I figured that was with RX580X with afterburner.
If it’s without, that would be an even worse price.
People were complaining on MR about Apple using the RX580 in the base 2019 Mac Pro. It’s the lower end GPU used in the 3.7GHz 27” iMac. I don’t think we’ll ever know what Apple is charging for it but you can buy a Sapphire RX580 card for about $200, the most popular card for upgrading a 5,1 Mac Pro to Mojave.
Old 18th September 2019
  #2261
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
Thank you for the very informative explanation, having heard all that, does the new mac pro look like a candidate to replace your hackintosh? I think I know the answer.
Sure it could, but there are a lot of reasons why I'm not...

Catalina looks like a mess. I don't know for sure what's going to be compatible right out of the gate, and deprecating 32 bit completely is a non-starter for me based on a few small but important apps I still reply on, (and frankly shouldn't have to give up...) There's no reason to remove it completely. Although they could silently release it before Catalina I very much doubt they will.

I also don't like the direction Catalina is taking macOS in. I'm not crazy about all of the iOS junk they're migrating into the OS. Basically Apple's priorities seem to be focused completely in the wrong place regarding the Mac Pro user, and the rumored new MacBook Pro...

They're basically rolling out extremely high end machines but adding a ton of useless consumer garbage into the OS, while guaranteeing compatibility issues for audio and video users. I just don't get it... It would have been smarter to focus on making sure Catalina played nicely with the new machines right out of the gate, then migrate all of the iOS consumer bloat into the next version of the OS.

To me it looks like they're setting themselves up for a lot of unhappy users who impulse buy one without heeding the developer warnings, only to find out that a lot of they're plugins or interfaces have compatibility issues.

I'm also not a fan of the T2, (as if I haven't said it enough in this thread ). The headaches the T2 chip brought to the MacBook Pro have me convinced the new machine won't come without a year of headaches when first released... The biggest concern of all being the audio issues that went away with one update, then came back with another update... (This has already happened twice. I'm skeptical it won't happen a 3rd time, not to mention the issue wasn't isolated to the MBP... The Mini and iMac Pro were affected by the same issues at some point as well.)

The short version is I don't think Apple's worked out all of the kinks with the chip and I'm not willing to gamble 8-10k just to find out, when the hackintosh does everything I currently need it to. And Catalina looks like it's going to be a messy affair.
Old 19th September 2019
  #2262
Tui
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Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zedsdeadbaby View Post
Catalina looks like a mess. I don't know for sure what's going to be compatible right out of the gate, and deprecating 32 bit completely is a non-starter for me based on a few small but important apps I still reply on, (and frankly shouldn't have to give up...) There's no reason to remove it completely.
Agreed.

With decisions like these, I picture Tim Cook sitting behind his desk, staring at an Apple monitor when using Safari and Finder to check his emails. Phil Schiller walks in with an annoyed expression on his face and asks "I want to get rid of all 32-bit support, not worth it, ok?". Cook briefly looks up and murmurs "What is 32-bit..? Ah, whatever", and that is the end of it.

I kind of hope, just as with previous purges such as PowerPC support, that some charitable soul will create an emulator or 32-bit bridge.
Old 19th September 2019
  #2263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
The biggest setup I have seen is with junkieXL, rack mount computers, server architecture, but I dont have details.
There's a series of videos of himself explaining his setup in pretty much every detail. Very impressive to see how he apparently manages to keep track of his 3000 (!) track Cubase template.
And well, he's using PCs almost all throughout.
Have a look at his "Studio Time" playlists:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis..._UC87OMsHrv_tR
Old 19th September 2019
  #2264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~ufo~ View Post
6k for a relatively simple 8 core is not acceptable for audio in this day and age.
IMO that's the entire point (well, maybe plus the issues the T2 chip and Catalina will bring to the table). In case you don't need all the extras merely tailored for video use and what not, you could build an extremely impressive audio production machine for 6k, simply blowing the base model of the new MP away in each and every aspect relevant for audio production.
Old 19th September 2019
  #2265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zedsdeadbaby View Post
And Catalina looks like it's going to be a messy affair.
Absolutely. I thought about trying to "hack" it onto my cheesegrater at one point in time, just to see what it's all about, but right now, after reading about it a bit more, I would possibly not even install it if it was officially supported.

I'll be keeping my eyes open, but so far it really looks like Apple has finally managed to make me think about Logic alternatives. And well, I'd consider myself as being quite a Logic afficionado. But Apples current computer lineup and all the stories about whatever restrictions the new OSX versions (along with the T2 chip) will bring are absoutely against anything I would want to deal with. Let alone they've already messed up some Logic things I loved during the last years (starting with LP8 which was the first really "apple-fied" Logic).
So, once it's time to get a new computer, it'll likely not be a Mac anymore, not even a Hackintosh. Fortunately, I need a new laptop at one point in time anyway - and it's almost cast in stone already that this won't be a Macbook, so I can perhaps manage a smooth gradual transition back into Windows land.
Old 19th September 2019
  #2266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~ufo~ View Post
I did not know the afterburner card was optional. Where’s that info?

And what is the price with the RX580X without afterburner?
They said it would start at 6k, I figured that was with RX580X with afterburner.
If it’s without, that would be an even worse price.
It comes base with 8 core 580X 32gb of RAM. I know what you mean about the price but there are not many motherboards that are comparable, the design of the whole thing, cableless design, possible configurations, power supply. $6000 is about right. Probably not for the 8 core but yeah
Old 19th September 2019
  #2267
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
There's a series of videos of himself explaining his setup in pretty much every detail. Very impressive to see how he apparently manages to keep track of his 3000 (!) track Cubase template.
And well, he's using PCs almost all throughout.
Have a look at his "Studio Time" playlists:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis..._UC87OMsHrv_tR
I will take another look. The videos I saw involved a lot of the front end, but the specs of the actual servers themselves were not disclosed, but I have not seen all of his videos. Its great for cubase that he pushes it to its limits, steinberg fixes it to make sure it works for him, and at the end of all that, cubase is know to scale up to huge projects.
Old 19th September 2019
  #2268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
but the specs of the actual servers themselves were not disclosed,
Don't remember, but maybe they're not even that special - I mean, in case you're Junkie XL and run out of virtual orchestral juice, you just order another server.
Old 19th September 2019
  #2269
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Don't remember, but maybe they're not even that special - I mean, in case you're Junkie XL and run out of virtual orchestral juice, you just order another server.
I was just watching one, and one thing I noticed is he has 6 slave servers using VSL technology. This is a steinberg thing and it looks like its an alternative to using VEPro.
Old 19th September 2019
  #2270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
I was just watching one, and one thing I noticed is he has 6 slave servers using VSL technology. This is a steinberg thing and it looks like its an alternative to using VEPro.
Oh, and I thought it was VEPro - but then, it's been a while since I watched the videos.
Anyway, seems to work pretty flawlessly.
Old 19th September 2019
  #2271
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Oh, and I thought it was VEPro - but then, it's been a while since I watched the videos.
Anyway, seems to work pretty flawlessly.
I don't know enough to say for sure, but it looked like an alternative way to cluster servers together.
Old 19th September 2019
  #2272
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b0se's Avatar
Long gone are the days of Snow Leopard. Loved that OS.

OSX is, bit by bit, becoming more like iOS.
Old 19th September 2019
  #2273
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juiseman's Avatar
 

yes, I agree. that was worth a double post

Man those were good times; I get real nostalgic about Snow Leopard and Windows 7.
Old 19th September 2019
  #2274
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by juiseman View Post
yes, I agree. that was worth a double post

Man those were good times; I get real nostalgic about Snow Leopard and Windows 7.
Agreed on both counts--the sad thing is, the new releases tend to serve the vendors agenda more than the customer. I liked snow leopard well enough and remembered that as often as not, a new release of osx introduced more negative than positive. For itunes, it went from being great to being unusable. I guess they finally realized they had killed it and are replacing it.
Old 19th September 2019
  #2275
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Hm, I actually like High Sierra. At least I didn't notice much (if anything at all) that would get in my way compared to Snow Leopard. But I agree, given the time it was released, it was a fabulous OS, rock solid. Fwiw, still running like a champ with Logic 9 on my Macbook. Couldn't even force-crash it if I wanted.
Old 19th September 2019
  #2276
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by juiseman View Post
Man those were good times; I get real nostalgic about Snow Leopard...
Same here, mate. Still King for me.
Old 20th September 2019
  #2277
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekwipt View Post
It comes base with 8 core 580X 32gb of RAM. I know what you mean about the price but there are not many motherboards that are comparable, the design of the whole thing, cableless design, possible configurations, power supply. $6000 is about right. Probably not for the 8 core but yeah
Right, but why pair a $3000 mobo with a wimpy 8 core processor?

To be honest I find it naive, if not insulting that they would do this. IMO all skepticism is warranted...
Old 20th September 2019
  #2278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zedsdeadbaby View Post
Right, but why pair a $3000 mobo with a wimpy 8 core processor?
Well, they're slapping a 100 bucks SSD into a 6k machine, so nothing new here.
It has always been part of Apples strategies to make their base configurations barely acceptable (if at all) so people would purchase whatever upgrades straight from the start - for horrendous prices. That's why you can't do anything on your own on most of Apples devices, too. Soldered RAM, glued in drives, no SD card slots on iDevices, let alone replaceable batteries. Anything checked to make upgrades expensive and/or shorten the lifecycle. Yes, there's many companies doing it in similar ways, but Apple is way at the forefront.
Old 20th September 2019
  #2279
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Fwiw, here's a little example perfectly illustrating how Apple is ripping off users in the most ridiculous ways:
Base price for the 6-core Mini over here: €1,249.
Comes with a 256GB SSD. Update price for a 512GB model: €240.
Total cost now: €1,489
Assuming the NVMe SSDs are roughly in the league of a Samsung 970 Pro or EVO (doesn't matter much for this example) the price difference between the 256 and 512 models (can't even purchase a Pro with just 256 anymore as it seems) comes in at around €30-40. Even the overall price of the 512GB/Pro is just around €130 - less than Apples upgrade price. But we're not buying an additional drive here but have to give in the old one, so the difference in price is all that is important.
Ok, so the difference in price is (at best) €40. Apple is however charging you €240. That's €200 for their "work".
Now hold on - is *anybody* actually doing some extra work for those €200? Yes, the extra work is the person assembling your machine grabbing a 512 model instead of a 256 model, which might involve 1 more step to the left or raising his/her arm for another 40cm.
Just to make this clear (for those defending Apples upgrade tactics): No, there's nobody disassembling the machine, ripping the 256 model out, glueing the 512 one back in and reassembling things. That just doesn't happen.
So, out of the final price of €1,489, €200 are generated for *zero* work. That's a little more than 13%. Again: for *zero* work!
It might as well be worth noting that just recently Apple has "significantly lowered" their SSD upgrade prices. Before that it was even more ridiculous.

Imagine you'd have, say, your guitar serviced by a luthier. And now you want him/her to put on Elixirs instead of Ernie Balls. And you'd be charged €50 for that "upgrade". Sure, that's defenitely something you'd gladly accept...
Old 20th September 2019
  #2280
Lives for gear
I'm ready for a new system this fall.

I mainly use Cubase pro 10 on a 6 core PC (and have Logic X on a decent new iMac.)

For £3,500 I can buy a new PC workstation,

16 core i9
64GB DDR4 RAM
2x 1TB M.2 motherboard SSD
2 x Audio drives

I have a feeling this spec in the new Mac Pro would be closer to £7,000.

So unfortunately, much as I'd love to buy a NMP, as I need this kind of spec, the NMP price structure is unaffordable for me.

An iMac pro is out, as I use a 34" ultra wide screen.
The Mac mini is no more powerful than the PC I'm using now.
I don't like using a MBP in a studio setting.

It would been great if Apple had an in between "project studio" tower.

I guess I represent a tiny segment of buyers!

Last edited by thehightenor; 20th September 2019 at 09:50 AM..
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