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At last: new Mac Pro!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parzival View Post
I'm curious what the performance of the Mini is after, say, 10 hours of work with 50/100 instances of Kontakt.

Does it get any slower because of thermal throttling?
I’m not doing scoring type gigs so I can’t really speak to your exact question and in the past I’ve run Vienna Ensemble when I was doing huge orchestral stuff on sessions. However...
I do have a project tracking template with 40 tracks (in studio one) of VIs including things like Massive X ,8 instances of Kontact, Arcade , Rewire for Ableton etc etc and it’s using 21% of the CPU
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2132
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lowkey's Avatar
 

I e never noticed my Mac Mini slowing down over time while running Cubase with loads of VSTis and plugins.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2133
Tui
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Old 2 weeks ago
  #2134
Sky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KorgAddict View Post
Software my man, software.

Scenario one(me): I buy a Mac that cost me 2200$. I buy Logic Pro X in 2013 that cost me 200$. 6 years later, total cost: 2400$.

Scenario 2: Someone buys a similar Windows-based computer to my Mac priced 1700$. The person buys Cubase or Pro Tools at 600$. 6 years later with a 100$ update price per year for Cubase or PT total cost: 2900$...

Who got the better deal??

KA
Choosing a computer is not a decision to be made in a vacuum. Software clearly dictates the best choices. E.g. Windows has no value to a Logic Pro X user.

Nay-sayers may suggest that all DAW software is the same, so why not switch? Of course it's not that simple. DAWs, like cars, are all different. Sometimes the difference is Ford vs GM (i.e. two DAWs with similar features yet different ergonomics); sometimes it's truck vs. coupe (e.g. linear DAW like Pro Tools vs looping DAW like Live).

If the DAW CPU lives in an ecosystem, then software concerns go way beyond the DAW. I'm all-Apple and use the entire ecosystem - OSX, iOS, Time machine, iCloud, Safari bookmarks, Mail, Calendar, plus several Apple-centric utilities. If the only Windows machine on my network were my DAW, it would create its own ecosystem for system and data management, security, etc.

For me, staying with Apple is a no-brainer. My biggest decision now is about price versus ergonomics in my next CPU upgrade. NMP wins for me on ergonomics and price is still TBD.

Sky
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KorgAddict View Post
Software my man, software.

Scenario one(me): I buy a Mac that cost me 2200$. I buy Logic Pro X in 2013 that cost me 200$. 6 years later, total cost: 2400$.

Scenario 2: Someone buys a similar Windows-based computer to my Mac priced 1700$. The person buys Cubase or Pro Tools at 600$. 6 years later with a 100$ update price per year for Cubase or PT total cost: 2900$...

Who got the better deal??
While I would generally agree (plus, there might be some other factors kicking in, such as longevity, which at least has been quite good with many Apple computer - just that I see this to decline, at least somewhat), there's some flaws in that calculation.
At least over here, the price differences are higher, at least as long as you just compare the bare bones (CPU, RAM, storage). I give you that there's more to a computer than just that, but in case you need to keep an eye to your wallet, say, a great touchpad (which is really rare to find in the Windows world) might be of less importance, so you could as well save even more. Sometimes, it's even around 50%. Plus, you can't "scale" any Mac (that isn't a Mac Pro) to your needs, which might either add value or reduce costs.
Next, sure, Logic is a bargain. But in case you're not using Logic, the comparison already starts to fail. And then (I'm a Logic user...), personally I'm not exactly too happy with Logics development ever since the Apple buyout. Especially with LPX they managed to mess up plenty of things that have been working marvellously well in previous versions. Now, I don't have an idea about whether this has got anything to do with it being "protected" by Apple, but on the "free" market, Logic would likely have a tougher time.

I'm not saying that this is making your calculation invalid, but it's as well not as easy.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevron View Post
So you have to work hard to pay for the Mac Pro leaving no time to clog this thread up with your bickering....
LOL
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2137
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky View Post
Choosing a computer is not a decision to be made in a vacuum. Software clearly dictates the best choices. E.g. Windows has no value to a Logic Pro X user.

Nay-sayers may suggest that all DAW software is the same, so why not switch? Of course it's not that simple. DAWs, like cars, are all different. Sometimes the difference is Ford vs GM (i.e. two DAWs with similar features yet different ergonomics); sometimes it's truck vs. coupe (e.g. linear DAW like Pro Tools vs looping DAW like Live).

If the DAW CPU lives in an ecosystem, then software concerns go way beyond the DAW. I'm all-Apple and use the entire ecosystem - OSX, iOS, Time machine, iCloud, Safari bookmarks, Mail, Calendar, plus several Apple-centric utilities. If the only Windows machine on my network were my DAW, it would create its own ecosystem for system and data management, security, etc.

For me, staying with Apple is a no-brainer. My biggest decision now is about price versus ergonomics in my next CPU upgrade. NMP wins for me on ergonomics and price is still TBD.

Sky
A Logic Pro user is not free. He is bound to use an Apple computer, which can be pretty expensive if you need a lot of computing power.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2138
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zephonic's Avatar
Dave East, you’ve made your point, we get it.

Can we please move on now?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2139
Sky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Barnaby View Post
A Logic Pro user is not free. He is bound to use an Apple computer, which can be pretty expensive if you need a lot of computing power.
Are we making the same point? if someone wants to use Logic Pro then running Windows is not an option for them. And paying more for Apple hardware - versus putting the time into building and maintaining a hack - is just part of someone’s decision for running a OS X-based DAW.

Sky
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2140
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Chevron's Avatar
 

Thankfully this thread had been cleaned up a little.

Does anyone have any more info on release date and/or pricing?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2141
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

I called him out in the friendliest way I could devise many pages back (6 weeks ago at least, I reckon), because he repeatedly said in consecutive posts that he'd never buy a Mac again, prompting the question as to what he was doing here.

Chevron, I imagine that as soon as they start appearing we'll hear all about it here, mate. I'm kinda dreading the Aussie price 'cause even selling 2nd-hand gear and combining that with my music savings from the past several years, it looks like I'm gonna fall short, and that's before I up the core count to 12, buy some RAM and a larger SSD and look at some sort of expansion chassis for my 4 spinners that I want to migrate.

Still, we have to find out what the damage is sooner or later...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2142
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octatonic's Avatar
I'm sad my jet ski joke was 86'ed.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2143
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Chevron's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
His account looks like it's been terminated.

I called him out in the friendliest way I could devise many pages back (6 weeks ago at least, I reckon), because he repeatedly said in consecutive posts that he'd never buy a Mac again, prompting the question as to what he was doing here.

He only became more-shrill thereafter. He might want to look up the definition of a troll seeing as he insisted he wasn't one.

Chevron, I imagine that as soon as they start appearing we'll hear all about it here, mate. I'm kinda dreading the Aussie price 'cause even selling 2nd-hand gear and combining that with my music savings from the past several years, it looks like I'm gonna fall short, and that's before I up the core count to 12, buy some RAM and a larger SSD and look at some sort of expansion chassis for my 4 spinners that I want to migrate.

Still, we have to find out what the damage is sooner or later...
That was some crazy behaviour and totally derailed any on-topic discussion. Well, whatever there was that was on topic

Me too, I am fearful of the price here in Europe and like you I am pretty convinced it will be my next machine shortly after release. None of the other Macs, whilst cool are as appealing as this machine.

I am also thinking 12 core, currently anyway, and until the benchmarks hit and there is some real world music app benchmarks - I guess I will weight it up against the 8 core too.. I think 32 gb RAM will be okay for me for starters, but will up the SSD to 1 TB. I am thinking no spinners for me, as I already have a PCIe NVMe adapter card with a blindly fast 1 TB Samsung blade running in my current 5,1 Mac that I will port across.

It sure will be some damage to the wallet and will be a significant investment for me so I will need it make it last a good bunch of years.

I am also scared as my Pro Tools Ultimate perp license has lapsed and stalled on 2018.12 - which most likely won't work with the new OS, another chunk of dosh to fork out
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2144
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
Chevron, I imagine that as soon as they start appearing we'll hear all about it here, mate. I'm kinda dreading the Aussie price 'cause even selling 2nd-hand gear and combining that with my music savings from the past several years, it looks like I'm gonna fall short, and that's before I up the core count to 12, buy some RAM and a larger SSD and look at some sort of expansion chassis for my 4 spinners that I want to migrate.

Still, we have to find out what the damage is sooner or later...
TBH, I'm not quite sure what the point would be in shelling out megabucks for such a machine.

Unless you are independently wealthy or work for Steven Spielberg, which is kind of the same thing.

How many people realistically NEED that much power and all those expansion options? Are the new Xeons really that much faster than i7s and i9s?

Honestly, a current Mini is an incredible machine at a fraction of the cost.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2145
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EvilRoy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
How many people realistically NEED that much power and all those expansion options? Are the new Xeons really that much faster than i7s and i9s?
3D animation studios/artists or any other business that needs a lot of computing horse power and time is money. I just got a 2010 12 core which should last me until the new ones start showing up used, then I'm in.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2146
Tui
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Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRoy View Post
3D animation studios/artists or any other business that needs a lot of computing horse power and time is money. I just got a 2010 12 core which should last me until the new ones start showing up used, then I'm in.
Sure, I get that. However, even video cards can be used externally.

For audio people, the new Pros seem like overkill.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2147
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octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevron View Post
That was some crazy behaviour and totally derailed any on-topic discussion. Well, whatever there was that was on topic

Me too, I am fearful of the price here in Europe and like you I am pretty convinced it will be my next machine shortly after release. None of the other Macs, whilst cool are as appealing as this machine.

I am also thinking 12 core, currently anyway, and until the benchmarks hit and there is some real world music app benchmarks - I guess I will weight it up against the 8 core too.. I think 32 gb RAM will be okay for me for starters, but will up the SSD to 1 TB. I am thinking no spinners for me, as I already have a PCIe NVMe adapter card with a blindly fast 1 TB Samsung blade running in my current 5,1 Mac that I will port across.
I'll probably be going for 12 Core with (bought separately) 128GB RAM + 2TB internal storage.
I won't go for the 8 core, because the RAM is slower in that model.

Definitely no spinning rust, I'll continue to use my TB3 RAID Array.
I expect to keep it for 5-7 years at a minimum.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
TBH, I'm not quite sure what the point would be in shelling out megabucks for such a machine.

Unless you are independently wealthy or work for Steven Spielberg, which is kind of the same thing.

How many people realistically NEED that much power and all those expansion options? Are the new Xeons really that much faster than i7s and i9s?

Honestly, a current Mini is an incredible machine at a fraction of the cost.
We have been over this, and yes some of us in music production need a machine will some serious power and future upgradability. Large track count mixing sessions, with high sample rates and CPU hungry oversampling plug ins for example. Not to mention a super responsive composing platform able to run a small buffer size for tight latency, that runs off mixes and stems rapidly to save time and money.

The Mini is a great little machine, but it's not a good option if you want to run a few decent sized monitors. Lot's of reports of the internal graphics causing issues with various DAW performance. Adding a eGPU doesn't seem either an elegant solution or cost effective.

If I can get 5 years out of the new MP, that's around $1200 a year cost. Which seems reasonable for a high spec machine with some upgrade options down the line....
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2149
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octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
TBH, I'm not quite sure what the point would be in shelling out megabucks for such a machine.

Unless you are independently wealthy or work for Steven Spielberg, which is kind of the same thing.

How many people realistically NEED that much power and all those expansion options? Are the new Xeons really that much faster than i7s and i9s?

Honestly, a current Mini is an incredible machine at a fraction of the cost.
I have one, and a 2017 iMac.
It is very, very difficult to do video editing on the Mac mini because of no discreet video ram.
I use the iMac for video work but I rail at having to have two systems.

I could add a chassis and a video card but it is messy and noisy, compared to a discreet rack mountable system like the new Mac Pro that's I can carry about in a (I assume) 4u rack.

I'm selling my two machines as soon as the Mac Pro is announced and going down to one studio machine.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevron View Post
I am also thinking 12 core, currently anyway, and until the benchmarks hit and there is some real world music app benchmarks - I guess I will weight it up against the 8 core too..
My thinking exactly. I didn't want to add the unnecessary detail in my post at the time, but yeah, I've been looking forward to the benchmarks of the 8-core these past few months.

Probably like you, I'm more than happy to stick with the 8 cores until I'm able to upgrade if indeed the CPU smokes my twin Xeon 5680s in my cheese grater.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevron View Post
I think 32 gb RAM will be okay for me for starters, but will up the SSD to 1 TB.
Yeah, I was only thinking of going to 64GB, so not much additional expense there. I too am aiming to up the SSD to 1TB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevron View Post
It sure will be some damage to the wallet and will be a significant investment for me so I will need it make it last a good bunch of years.
Indeed brother; it's going to necessitate all manner of sacrifices for me, but after all these years of waiting for a new Mac tower, and assuming a cheaper model isn't offered by Apple (unlikely, but you never know for sure), I see no other option.

A good bunch of years will be the minimum here too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Are the new Xeons really that much faster than i7s and i9s?

Honestly, a current Mini is an incredible machine at a fraction of the cost.
Form factor, Brother Tui.

If an iMac or Mini were practical I'd not have waited all these years for another tower. A lack of space and the additional complexity and expense of the necessary peripherals to "recreate" my tower setup have put me off all this time and I can't see that changing.

Additionally, the upgradability is critical for me in the long term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by octatonic View Post
I won't go for the 8 core, because the RAM is slower in that model.
IIRC that's just the speed the RAM runs at with that CPU; it runs at full-speed when you upgrade the chip.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2151
Tui
Gear Guru
 
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You are confirming my point.

The new Pros seem aimed at a subsection of primarily video professionals and a few audio folk who want the latest and greatest. Nothing wrong with that.

However, everybody else would be better off investing the money elsewhere.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
You are confirming my point.

The new Pros seem aimed at a subsection of primarily video professionals and a few audio folk who want the latest and greatest. Nothing wrong with that.

However, everybody else would be better off investing the money elsewhere.
I agree with your point actually.

(I thought it was my point, in truth)

If I was only doing audio then I would probably just keep the Mini, although I find expansion chassis' a pain in the .. er ... rack.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2153
Gear Nut
 
benanderson89's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
TBH, I'm not quite sure what the point would be in shelling out megabucks for such a machine.

Unless you are independently wealthy or work for Steven Spielberg, which is kind of the same thing.

How many people realistically NEED that much power and all those expansion options? Are the new Xeons really that much faster than i7s and i9s?

Honestly, a current Mini is an incredible machine at a fraction of the cost.
If you have to ask what the point is, and then use a cheap consumer desktop as a viable alternative, then you are CLEARLY not the target market for a Mac Pro, which is enterprise grade hardware.

As Chevron stated, this machine over a typical five year life span is $1200 a year.

$1200 a year is very reasonable, dare I say cheap, for an enterprise grade computer. Against competition like Dell Precision and HP Z systems, it's a good, tempting option.

If people think $6000 is a lot for a workstation then you're clearly not the target market for it. I used to work in a data centre for a major car manufacturer and the price of intel based IBM machines (now manufactured by Lenovo) makes $6000 look like spare change.

The cheapest enterprise tower that Lenovo/IBM do is the ThinkSystem ST50. That has a single, 4 core Xeon E2124G processor, a single stick of 8GB RAM and integrated intel graphics chipset... It's RRP is $3200
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2154
Tui
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Tui's Avatar
Yes, I know I am not the target market...

Which, again, was my point. Most people aren't.

The old cheese-grater - I used to have one - was in my view a machine with much wider appeal.

Consider this:

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbrea...imate-ballpark
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2155
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
You are confirming my point.

The new Pros seem aimed at a subsection of primarily video professionals and a few audio folk who want the latest and greatest. Nothing wrong with that.
Hang on Brother Tui... I want an eminently-upgradeable platform to last the better part of 10 years.

The lack of space, unnecessary complexity, mess and additional expenses of moving stuff into external chassis are the primary reasons why iMac, Mini and the trash can were never for me, and if I can help it, never will be.

I say, "... if I can help it..." because the only other options I see are Hackintosh (not gonna happen) or going PC (never gonna happen if I can help it).

This has nothing to do with "latest and greatest"; it's literally the only option as the next step beyond my cheese grater that I can see, mate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by octatonic View Post
If I was only doing audio then I would probably just keep the Mini, although I find expansion chassis' a pain in the .. er ... rack.
Amen to that, brother.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2156
Tui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
Hang on Brother Tui... I want an eminently-upgradeable platform to last the better part of 10 years.

The lack of space, unnecessary complexity, mess and additional expenses of moving stuff into external chassis are the primary reasons why iMac, Mini and the trash can were never for me, and if I can help it, never will be.

I say, "... if I can help it..." because the only other options I see are Hackintosh (not gonna happen) or going PC (never gonna happen if I can help it).

This has nothing to do with "latest and greatest"; it's literally the only option as the next step beyond my cheese grater that I can see, mate.
Yeah sure, whatever makes you happy.

I was only trying to point out that, while I'm sure the Pro is one hell of a machine, you can make great music at a fraction of the cost and still have incredible grunt at your fingertips.

The new Pros appear to start at 6 grand and end anywhere outside 50 grand... Even by Apple standards, that's pretty crazy, no?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2157
Gear Nut
 
benanderson89's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
Yes, I know I am not the target market...

Which, again, was my point. Most people aren't.

The old cheese-grater - I used to have one - was in my view a machine with much wider appeal.

Consider this:

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbrea...imate-ballpark
I, too, had the last generation tower, specifically the 6-core model. It was 100% not a machine with wider appeal. It was still enterprise hardware and comically expensive for the raw on-paper specs you got.

The closest equivalent to the 2019 8-core base model is the 2010 dual quad core model. Adjusted for inflation it's $4200 before you even think about adding a professional graphics card, SSDs and more than what was even for the time, not-very-much RAM (8GB).

It was nice the older machines had cheaper options, like the use of quad core CPUs, but don't kid yourself into thinking it was anything but an enterprise grade machine. When a machine throws errors because the Memory sticks aren't installed in the correct slots, you know you're not dealing with an accessible machine with a "broad appeal". They could also top the tens of thousands.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2158
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
OK, let me try one last time...

I used to have a dual-CPU Xeon 8-core cheese-grater. It was expensive but not outrageously so - I thought back then.

It died on me around the time the 2012 Mini came out. I bought one of those and was amazed that it was about twice as powerful - for audio that is - as the huge tower. It was also much cheaper.

I recently got a 2018 Mini, primarily for better latency performance. Again, I find it is about twice as powerful as the 2012 model. It is a joy to use. Everything works extremely well - internet, wireless, graphics are as snappy as I would ever want them to be.

It is an incredible machine at an incredibly low cost. If someone can't make great music with one of those, it ain't the gear.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2159
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
I was only trying to point out that, while I'm sure the Pro is one hell of a machine, you can make great music at a fraction of the cost and still have incredible grunt at your fingertips.
Yeah, I knew that, mate; it's been the de facto subject of this thread, after all.

"Unfortunately" for me, iMac, Mini and trash can aren't doable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
The new Pros appear to start at 6 grand and end anywhere outside 50 grand... Even by Apple standards, that's pretty crazy, no?
Thankfully the baseline spec will likely smoke my current machine. CPU upgrade/s will only occur as and when necessary, and if value-for-money. I don't anticipate doing this more than once or twice in its lifetime.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2160
Gear Nut
 
benanderson89's Avatar
Okay so you don't see the point in the Mac Pro because you have already found something cheaper that works for you.

That makes more sense.
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