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At last: new Mac Pro!
Old 8th December 2019
  #3541
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Chevron's Avatar
 

Those Promise modules have been known about for a while and since the Mac Pro details were released to the press earlier this year. I’m sure it’s an elegant solution for low cost storage, and I’ve heard people say they are keen on the option, but for me I think I’d prefer the PCIe NVMe or SSD storage format.
Old 8th December 2019
  #3542
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyJoe View Post
...there’s still a hierarchy of design + intuitiveness + workflow + features in DAWs that make them better or worse choices...
Well, that's a lot more articulate than 'sucks', and I can't disagree with your analysis beyond observing that intuitiveness and workflow are, in my opinion subjective to a large degree in DAWs. I agree that there are universal GUI design principles that probably appeal to all humans, but that will be someone else's discussion.

To my thinking, once a daw has been demonstrated to be capable of 'PRO', its a matter of personal taste, as well as industry norms, as to which top tier one is best. (See the lamentations over at the pro tools licensing thread).

I'm afraid I have made something out of nothing here--stoking a pointless conflict, and my best move now is to bow out of this tangential discussion which I really have nothing to contribute as I am not a DP user, nor PRO...

So go in peace, and excuse my distraction here.
Old 8th December 2019
  #3543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevron View Post
Those Promise modules have been known about for a while and since the Mac Pro details were released to the press earlier this year. I’m sure it’s an elegant solution for low cost storage, and I’ve heard people say they are keen on the option, but for me I think I’d prefer the PCIe NVMe or SSD storage format.
This may be true but I haven’t seen much discussion about it here. And my point is also there will likely be other solutions like the Pegasus modules that take advantage of the new design of the Mac Pro.
Old 8th December 2019
  #3544
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Chevron's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyJoe View Post
This may be true but I haven’t seen much discussion about it here. And my point is also there will likely be other solutions like the Pegasus modules that take advantage of the new design of the Mac Pro.
Understandable considering the rollercoaster nature of this thread

Check from post #896 back in June though, I say this only for reference not to be a smart ass.

It’s great though that the tower format is returning to the Mac lineup though, even if at a steep cost.
Old 8th December 2019
  #3545
Gear Maniac
 

Just got the email.. orders start on the 10th and I’m ordering
Old 8th December 2019
  #3546
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lowkey's Avatar
 

Was just about to post the link but you beat me to it

https://apple.news/AGr_SRKH2REeByXOE-GN1oQ

Quote:
Originally Posted by nephew312 View Post
Just got the email.. orders start on the 10th and I’m ordering
Old 8th December 2019
  #3547
Gear Maniac
 

Yep and Amen my order is going in also!
Old 8th December 2019
  #3548
Lives for gear
 

I also wanted to address pricing for the new Mac Pro vs. the top-of-the-line models from other popular computer manufacturers and what's included. Disclaimer: as we all know it can be very difficult to navigate some of these competitors websites and make sure you're looking at the highest spec'd machine they make. So if you guys know of models that beat these from any of these manufacturers, let me know

HP Z8 G4 Workstation

https://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/hp-z8...-7bg86ut-aba-1

Dell Precision 7820 Tower Workstation

https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop...6-a3f2b2d5502f

*note: When selecting some of the higher core-count options, I'm getting a note that says Microsoft doesn't support that CPU option in Windows 10

Dell Precision T7920

https://www.dell.com/gy/business/p/p...&ref=PD_Family

CORSAIR ONE PRO i180 Compact Workstation-Grade PC

https://www.corsair.com/us/en/Catego...tab-tech-specs

*this one is pretty well priced for the specs you get

Lenovo ThinkStation P520c

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/think-w...US1/customize?

When you start matching some of the specs available in the base model Mac Pro, you realize that the pricing is quite competitive, and in some cases better for what you get. I would argue when this machine releases we will have seen nothing else like it on the market yet for Prosumers. I don't understand the criticism or even the contention that other computer manufacturers offer you more or the same for less. With the same hardware that will be available in the Mac Pro, I see similar pricing from all these manufacturers, and often with older components.
Old 8th December 2019
  #3549
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevron View Post
Those Promise modules have been known about for a while and since the Mac Pro details were released to the press earlier this year. I’m sure it’s an elegant solution for low cost storage, and I’ve heard people say they are keen on the option, but for me I think I’d prefer the PCIe NVMe or SSD storage format.

PCIE SSD Raid is significantly faster.
Old 8th December 2019
  #3550
Gear Maniac
 

I’m going for 2 smaller internal.. one for applications and one for plugins dedicated. Will keep all sessions external. Lacie nvme ssd pro 2tb

Even if pricing was significantly better with a windows machine I just couldn’t stomach going back to that platform. I’m Mac all the way and this just cemented that for years to come
Old 8th December 2019
  #3551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thestarfire View Post
PCIE SSD Raid is significantly faster.
Yes. The Pegasus page is showing HDDs in the Promise Pegasus R4i, but I'm sure you will be able to get it with SSDs. It's just an announcement page, you can't begin ordering/customizing yet.
Old 8th December 2019
  #3552
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyJoe View Post
When you start matching some of the specs available in the base model Mac Pro, you realize that the pricing is quite competitive, and in some cases better for what you get. I would argue when this machine releases we will have seen nothing else like it on the market yet for Prosumers. I don't understand the criticism or even the contention that other computer manufacturers offer you more or the same for less. With the same hardware that will be available in the Mac Pro, I see similar pricing from all these manufacturers, and often with older components.
I don't think any of that is untrue WRT to pricing for server/medical/science/trading machines, but the complaint I would have at least is for media workstations the HEDT range of chips makes more sense. They are faster, cheaper and have higher TDP then their suit-and-tie cousins.

Compare more to this-

https://www.avadirect.com/Intel-Xeon...igure/12607843

The new mac pro will use the W-3275 at the top of the range, where the W 3175X, the current HEDT chip, is over $1000 bucks cheaper and faster, quite a bit faster if you have adequate cooling.

I'm able to configure a pretty slamming 28c audio workstation there for ~10k (no need for expensive video cards etc). Or build it yourself for ~7k. Pretty big difference there to the 28c mac pro.

And the rest of the i9 HEDT line get's progressively less expensive moving down from there compared to the xeons. My 2 year old 7980xe hackintoshes will probably run neck and neck with the 28c mac pro. They cost about 5k each back then (with 2TB NVMe, basic video and 32GB ram).

Also on my two systems the one with higher speed ram outperforms the other in low latency tests.

I'm sure the new mac pros will be great machines though, don't get me wrong. But in price to performance, considering even DAW focused workstation builders, it's not going to be an ROI king.
Old 8th December 2019
  #3553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
The new mac pro will use the W-3275 at the top of the range, where the W 3175X, the current HEDT chip, is over $1000 bucks cheaper and faster, quite a bit faster if you have adequate cooling.
Except the W-3175X supports up to 512 GiB of 6 channel DDR4-2666 ECC memory, whereas the W-3275 supports up to 1 TiB of 6 channel DDR4-2933 memory. That’s a difference of 12 GiB/s Max Bandwidth.

Turbo boost frequencies are also higher on the W-3275.

Edit: You’re right that the TDP is higher on the W-3175X, but in this context I’m not sure how that’s better. It means the W-3275 is more efficient.

Last edited by MattyJoe; 8th December 2019 at 07:08 AM..
Old 8th December 2019
  #3554
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyJoe View Post
Except the W-3175X supports up to 512 GiB of 6 channel DDR4-2666 ECC memory, whereas the W-3275 supports up to 1 TiB of 6 channel DDR4-2933 memory. That’s a difference of 12 GiB/s Max Bandwidth.
Case in point for me. Maybe a very select few people in audio need more than even 128GB in ram, let alone more than 512.

And memory bandwidth has surpassed our needs LONG ago. 12GiB/s equals 41,666 channels of 24/96 audio. The dawbench stuff I saw showed no performance gain for audio in number of memory channels.

I'm not computer shopping at the moment, but I'm guessing like always mobos for 3175x can run ram up to as fast as they can make it, intel just puts a number on the box.

None of those things materialize as any real benefit for a DAW workstation, for me at least. Especially when it means a slightly slower, lower TDP processor, and higher price.
Old 8th December 2019
  #3555
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyJoe View Post
Turbo boost frequencies are also higher on the W-3275.
Base clock is lower, and TDP is lower. TDP is what will govern thermal throttling. At best they are neck and neck, at worst (for the 3275) it's going to be slightly slower. We'll see soon enough.
Old 8th December 2019
  #3556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Case in point for me. Maybe a very select few people in audio need more than even 128GB in ram, let alone more than 512.

And memory bandwidth has surpassed our needs LONG ago. 12GiB/s equals 41,666 channels of 24/96 audio. The dawbench stuff I saw showed no performance gain for audio in number of memory channels.
With all due respect, in your original post you said for “media workstations.” That gave me the impression we were talking about more than just audio applications. I’m sure you know that the needs of high end video and graphics professionals could easily benefit from the CPU in the highest end Mac Pro.

Because, yes, aside from film audio applications, the higher end new Mac Pros could be considered overkill for most of our audio needs. Although, we don’t know where we might be with software/virtual instruments in several years. As computer specs go up, it’s likely software companies will start taking advantage of the increased headroom they have.

And aside from all this, even if no one out there can take advantage of a Terabyte or more of RAM, the point was for Apple to design a new Pro machine that turns our heads. Don’t forget about the MPX Graphics module, which is nuts. If you absolutely maxed out every spec on the Mac Pro, you’d have a machine many of us can barely imagine the capabilities of at this moment. That was the point. People were asking for a high end Mac.
Old 8th December 2019
  #3557
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyJoe View Post
Edit: You’re right that the TDP is higher on the W-3175X, but in this context I’m not sure how that’s better. It means the W-3275 is more efficient.
No it means that the 3275 will have to throttle down it's turbo to keep under those 205 watts. All these new chips idle at like 20w. They throttle automatically up to TDP or thermal limits. If the computer has a good thermal design, it will throttle to TDP. The one with the higher TDP will be able to do more calculations/s without the clock getting bumped back down.

The only way to lift the TDP limit for CPU throttling is when overclocking. Which obviously apple isn't going to do.
Old 8th December 2019
  #3558
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
They throttle automatically up to TDP or thermal limits. If the computer has a good thermal design, it will throttle to TDP. The one with the higher TDP will be able to do more calculations/s without the clock getting bumped back down.
Yes, and since the cooling system in the new Mac Pro is new and proprietary, we won’t know the thermal performance of this CPU in it til we get our hands on some real world tests
Old 8th December 2019
  #3559
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyJoe View Post
With all due respect, in your original post you said for “media workstations.”
Fair enough. I can't honestly say that I know that much about video needs for a computer, but what I generally see there is people also saying that the HEDT line is the best for them too. Cinebench almost always shows better results for HEDT on the rendering side...As far as what pixar needs, I'm guessing apple worked with them on the design of this.

Horses for courses I suppose, but as a Daw guy looking to do some basic video in the future, what I can say is that in terms of pricing comparisons, it still doesn't make sense to compare the computer capabilities I can't/don't use, to one that I can/will.
Old 8th December 2019
  #3560
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyJoe View Post
Yes, and since the cooling system in the new Mac Pro is new and proprietary, we won’t know the thermal performance of this CPU in it til we get our hands on some real world tests
The TDP is a cap, and so is the temp. If it overheats it throttles down. If it reaches TDP it throttles down (even if not overheating).

If the chip caps at a lower TDP, it will throttle down more/sooner/faster then one with a higher TDP regardless of temp.

With turbo, where the ratings aren't that good because sometimes you are looking at 1 core at 4.5 vs all cores at 3.8 or some combo above, we should just look at TDP. The higher the TDP, the faster the processor.
Old 8th December 2019
  #3561
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Fair enough. I can't honestly say that I know that much about video needs for a computer, but what I generally see there is people also saying that the HEDT line is the best for them too. Cinebench almost always shows better results for HEDT on the rendering side...As far as what pixar needs, I'm guessing apple worked with them on the design of this.
I don’t know a whole lot either, certainly not as much as audio. But I do know that high end video could make very good use of this machine, and not just feature films. With all the YouTubers out there there’s lots of 4-8k video being shot, edited, exported, and stored out there. All that RAM, GPU, and CPU performance will greatly cut down their export times.

Graphics rendering will be the one thing that could still tap out the highest end new Mac Pro. So yes, Pixar level But think about it, if Apple could start making more of a dent in this market, that could be big for them. So much content is being created now for all these different streaming platforms, there might be a need for this kind of machine from Apple.
Old 8th December 2019
  #3562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM View Post
Logic may be a kludge, yet the freshest code can't outperform it. Says something.
Could it be the Lengeling have some magic assembler in the core of Logic no-one else currently at Apple can understand? While he's occupied with, what Garageband?
Old 8th December 2019
  #3563
TNM
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by thestarfire View Post
Thank you for your efforts! interesting to have some data. You should definitely start a thread on this. Be a bummer to have it get buried here. Would also be intersting To see a post from you on your standardized procedure so it can be replicated on different machines. I would love to do some of these test on my 2018 MBP which feels like a sluggish pos. Will also like to run them as soon as the nMP is in-house. I would like to follow your protocol so we are doing the exact same test.

When you get a chance if you wouldn’t mind posting your testing procedure so we can build a comparative would be awesome. Are you running Catalina or Mohave?
Hi, so sorry I missed your post...

As described, I am running 3 different OS.

The macbook pro has high sierra.
the imac pro has mojave
the 16" macbook has Catalina

I am selling the 15" 2015 macbook pro soon so all the testing will basically be focused on Catalina and the 16" macbook pro.
I will still do tests on the imac pro but ONLY with stuff that is already installed on there.. That being Logic, PT and S14.
On my "fun" machine I am willing to install demos and whatever is required.

I thought I explained the process of the first test quite substantially, very sorry if you disagree.

To make it standardised, I would have to create something like DAW Bench for Mac, using only freeware plugins.

DAWbench tests processors against each other using the same DAW.. I could actually create a standardised test made for testing DAW's vs each other on the same hardware..

For example.. if we start seeing people getting the same relative bad performance on S1 on their macs that I do, then it will become quite clear that S1 has a performance issue vs other DAWs.

It's a really good idea, but also a lot of work. I have used commercial plugins in my testing so far that not everyone will have.
So what I will do (but bear with me as this will take TIME) is create 3 tests for all the DAW's I have mentioned in my posting so far..
One test will focus on VI playback instances
One on Vi record armed instances
And one on audio track record armed monitoring with reverb effects.

I already have an idea that I can use acon digital free reverb for that.. Also, for the VI, we could use the kontakt player with the free library.. I'll still look at alternatives, but basically something that everyone can have access to...

All they will have to do is load the test in their DAW and hit play, and add or delete tracks if the default setting overloads on their system, until the exact number of tracks is found.

When I spend some more time in bootcamp, I will happily do it for windows DAWs as well, IF some people here tell me they have interest for that.. I don't want to do it for nothing.. This will take hours and hours of my time (perhaps 50 of them).. But i guess there should be some out there curious how cubase/reaper/S1/PT etc al perform against one another in windows.

So.. just reply to this or +1 the comment and I'll look at it next weekend and make my decision then. Cheers.
Old 8th December 2019
  #3564
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Well, some of us have been waiting since mid-year (June?) to see if Promise would offer the drive-expansion chassis (both 2 and 4-bay) sans any drives. I mean, why would I ditch any of my 4 WD Golds and buy new, lesser-quality drives as opposed to simply mounting what I have in the new chassis?

Forcing us to pay for drives we don't want or need is daylight robbery, especially considering the contrasting RRP an empty chassis is likely to go for. C'mon Promise; better jump to it before someone else steals potential customers from you by offering a straight-up, empty chassis.

EDIT:
Sonnet, I'm looking at you... with fingers crossed...
Old 8th December 2019
  #3565
TNM
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Base clock is lower, and TDP is lower. TDP is what will govern thermal throttling. At best they are neck and neck, at worst (for the 3275) it's going to be slightly slower. We'll see soon enough.
I think Apple have said they have designed the NMP to be allowed to go balls to the wall and run the processor at it's maximum capability...

So we should see the all core turbo speeds whatever they may be and I doubt they will limit TDP at all like they do with the macbooks.. This is supposed to be about serious performance and expansion..

Maybe it has taken this long TO perfect the cooling.. personally that's what I think is the main delay.. I think they will nail it..

Even the trashcan mac pro's were able to max the chip's settings at all times.. This new tower will be a beast...

Heck, even an imac pro can properly cool the 8 and 10 core without noise (ok, not the 14 and 18 core but it's a computer in a monitor)..

Apple have made cooling one of the priorities in this new tower..

I can't find the all core turbo specs for any of the processors so far, even on wikichip.. so... I am sure that info will come soon enough then there'll be tons of stress tests on youtube when they come out

I can't wait personally.
Old 8th December 2019
  #3566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B View Post
Could it be the Lengeling have some magic assembler in the core of Logic no-one else currently at Apple can understand? While he's occupied with, what Garageband?
There's something almost magical in the Logic code for sure. It sort of dissapeared during the unholy Logic 6 adventure (which was the worst Logic version ever) but returned somewhen during Logic 7, I think with version 7.2 - along with Intel Macs. Which IMO also demonstrates how bad of a CPU those Motorolas were.
Might as well be the reason why certain parts of Logic still look untouched for over 2 decades by now, they may just not want to mess with some portions of that excellent core code.

I have done very similar comparisons such as the ones TNM is conducting right now back in the Windows days, Logic blowing all the others away with ease, there's wasn't something even coming remotely close, especially in case you were after low latency operation.
By now, the others apparently have caught up, but at least under OSX there's just Logic to rule them all. In Windows land you need to compensate for that by pimping your computer (but then, at least that's possible, unlike with Macs...).
It's quite astonishing to see how well even my rather lowly 2x2.66 cheesegrater performs in comparison to some pretty well configured actual Windows boxes. Yes, there's things that are slow-ish, such as loading larger Kontakt patches (couldn't be a***ed to slap NVMes into a machine soon being obsolete, so using standard SSDs is as far as I get) and some single core CPU munching synth monsters, but once it comes to playing back tracks there's barely any limits I'd ever be touching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM View Post
I already have an idea that I can use acon digital free reverb for that.. Also, for the VI, we could use the kontakt player with the free library.. I'll still look at alternatives, but basically something that everyone can have access to...
I would recommend to also use:
- A plain synth, such as U-Hes free TyrellN6 (which is a must-have anyway, IMO at least),
- A free IR reverb, such as Convology XT.
- A free compressor/limiter, maybe one of the Tokyo Dawn Labs offerings.
- A free amp simulation suite, maybe from Ignite Amps (another must have, IMO).
- Some free delay (TAL?). Sure, you'd likely have to insert tons with modern CPUs, but IMO delays need to be included.
- Some free modulation (no idea what, maybe TAL again).

A decent mixture of all these should result in something pretty close to a real-life situation.

There might be one caveat, though: It could as well be that the VST and AU versions of these plugins would perform differently. Not an issue as long as the tested hosts support both (such as Live), but could blurry the picture a bit when comparing, say, Cubase and Logic. Maybe one would have to compare the VST and AU versions in Live at first?
Old 8th December 2019
  #3567
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Case in point for me. Maybe a very select few people in audio need more than even 128GB in ram, let alone more than 512.

And memory bandwidth has surpassed our needs LONG ago. 12GiB/s equals 41,666 channels of 24/96 audio. The dawbench stuff I saw showed no performance gain for audio in number of memory channels.

I'm not computer shopping at the moment, but I'm guessing like always mobos for 3175x can run ram up to as fast as they can make it, intel just puts a number on the box.

None of those things materialize as any real benefit for a DAW workstation, for me at least. Especially when it means a slightly slower, lower TDP processor, and higher price.
With this being said, what do you propose is the prime config of the new Mac Pro for what we are here doing as far as daw capabilities
Old 8th December 2019
  #3568
Gear Nut
 

It's happening!

New Mac Pro and Pro Display XDR orders start on December 10, Apple announces

https://ww.9to5mac.com/2019/12/07/ne...ple-announces/
Old 8th December 2019
  #3569
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by nephew312 View Post
With this being said, what do you propose is the prime config of the new Mac Pro for what we are here doing as far as daw capabilities
Hard to say on the processor choice. Personally I use a lot of VI's but in the context of origonal song produciton, not huge orchestral templates. For me 32GB is plenty. I could see big orchestral template types needing 128gb...

The processor part will probably depend on which daw. For instance Logic really can use all your cores pretty effectively, so a hardcore Logic user would benefit from going all the way up to the 28c. PT is not too far behind there, but it really likes some fast cores, so there might be a sweeter spot.

It seems to me that in general, all the daws keep improving their coding to use more cores. I would expect with the release of this new mac pro, they will optimize further in this direction as clearly this is the way we are headed.
Old 8th December 2019
  #3570
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM View Post
I think Apple have said they have designed the NMP to be allowed to go balls to the wall and run the processor at it's maximum capability...

So we should see the all core turbo speeds whatever they may be and I doubt they will limit TDP at all like they do with the macbooks.. This is supposed to be about serious performance and expansion..

Maybe it has taken this long TO perfect the cooling.. personally that's what I think is the main delay.. I think they will nail it..

Even the trashcan mac pro's were able to max the chip's settings at all times.. This new tower will be a beast...

Heck, even an imac pro can properly cool the 8 and 10 core without noise (ok, not the 14 and 18 core but it's a computer in a monitor)..

Apple have made cooling one of the priorities in this new tower..

I can't find the all core turbo specs for any of the processors so far, even on wikichip.. so... I am sure that info will come soon enough then there'll be tons of stress tests on youtube when they come out

I can't wait personally.

here you go. Every nMP cpu and their specs.
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us...,193749,193739
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