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Old 16th January 2020
  #1261
TNM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post
Reaper—like any DAW—compensates for latency, we're talking CPU efficiency when tracking etc.
i was not talking about plugin delay compensation.

i was talking about being able to disable all (and only) plugins with latency from the record path with one button.
Old 16th January 2020
  #1262
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b0se's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM View Post
i was not talking about plugin delay compensation.

i was talking about being able to disable all (and only) plugins with latency from the record path with one button.
I know, but we were talking about CPU efficiency, your comparison didn't seem relevant. Cool feature though
Old 16th January 2020
  #1263
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PitchSlap View Post
I started a new project last night and was getting drop outs and wondering what was going on. CPU was really low, but real-time CPU was over 75%, thought it might have been Aqua's, but turned out it was a single Diva patch! Using draft mode or multicore should help, but I was still a bit surprised.

When the single-core difference isn't as large I can see why IPC gains are so important. If Zen 3 has the reported 15% IPC improvement I might consider upgrading if it wouldn't mean selling my 3950x at a huge loss.
Yeah. That's crazy that just one Diva patch could do that. There is something wrong with that plugin. I've used some HQ VSTi's through out the years, and there is no excuse why one VSTi patch could bring a top 12-16 core 2020 cpu to its knees. You have to turn on the multicore button in Diva for those patches to work.
Old 16th January 2020
  #1264
Gear Maniac
 

Old 16th January 2020
  #1265
Gear Addict
 
highvoltage's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PitchSlap View Post
I started a new project last night and was getting drop outs and wondering what was going on. CPU was really low, but real-time CPU was over 75%, thought it might have been Aqua's, but turned out it was a single Diva patch! Using draft mode or multicore should help, but I was still a bit surprised.

When the single-core difference isn't as large I can see why IPC gains are so important. If Zen 3 has the reported 15% IPC improvement I might consider upgrading if it wouldn't mean selling my 3950x at a huge loss.
My first test on my 3900x was a Diva project, and it was much worse than on my old 4790k.

My 4790k was running 5 instances of a 64 voice Diva patch.
On the 3900x i could only run 1 or 2 max.

Every other plugin i tested was way faster on the 3900x, so the fault is on Diva's side. I personaly don't give a **** cause i always disliked Diva very much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM View Post
i was not talking about plugin delay compensation.

i was talking about being able to disable all (and only) plugins with latency from the record path with one button.
Btw Reaper can do this too. There is a script for that, you can even set the threshold for the amount of samples of latency
Old 16th January 2020
  #1266
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b0se's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by highvoltage View Post
Btw Reaper can do this too. There is a script for that, you can even set the threshold for the amount of samples of latency
I thought there might be, anything useful on other DAWs has usually been ported or scripted for Reaper. What's it called?
Old 16th January 2020
  #1267
Gear Addict
 
highvoltage's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post
I thought there might be, anything useful on other DAWs has usually been ported or scripted for Reaper. What's it called?
I have downloaded it inside Reaper through Reapak

mpl_Toggle bypass all project FX with latency (PDC) higher than 256 samples

You can duplicate or rename the script and change the number to any amount.

I made a shortcut that toggles 128+ samples latency plugins, so that essentially only disables very CPU intensive plugins such as IK tapes, and multiband things on the Master bus. VERY handy.

Made a version that removes every plugin with any latency, so if i want to record something live i just toggle it off, and after record is done, i toggle it back. Fun times.

download:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vi380jwkla...mples.lua?dl=0
Old 16th January 2020
  #1268
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesha View Post
As far as I know the last AM4 compatible CPU will be out this year, which is the fourth generation AM4. The next one will use DDR5 and it must be AM5 or whatever AMD chooses to call it. I guess that is better than Intel's one or two generations on the same chipset.
Well, we actually don't know if this will be the case though.

Even though new designs may focus on new features that require a new socket it's still possible for AMD to roll out new CPUs either on the older architecture or the new one but in the older 'package' (less likely). For example; AMD still produced and sold older CPUs once Ryzen came out, and still produced Zen 1 chips when Zen 2 came out.

So while the next Zen architecture might require a new socket to take advantage of new features it doesn't necessarily mean that no new CPUs for AM4 will come out in 2021.

If the market wants AM4 CPUs and they're profitable to produce I'm sure AMD will continue to make them. I would think even just increases in die quality would allow for higher clock speeds which in turn hypothetically could mean a new version of an older design with slightly higher performance.
Old 16th January 2020
  #1269
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b0se's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by highvoltage View Post
I have downloaded it inside Reaper through Reapak

mpl_Toggle bypass all project FX with latency (PDC) higher than 256 samples

You can duplicate or rename the script and change the number to any amount.

I made a shortcut that toggles 128+ samples latency plugins, so that essentially only disables very CPU intensive plugins such as IK tapes, and multiband things on the Master bus. VERY handy.

Made a version that removes every plugin with any latency, so if i want to record something live i just toggle it off, and after record is done, i toggle it back. Fun times.

download:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vi380jwkla...mples.lua?dl=0
Thanks very much, downloaded! :¬)

Man, Reaper is crazy good. Written a couple of scripts myself that make life that much easier/faster.
Old 16th January 2020
  #1270
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Lesha's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Well, we actually don't know if this will be the case though.

Even though new designs may focus on new features that require a new socket it's still possible for AMD to roll out new CPUs either on the older architecture or the new one but in the older 'package' (less likely). For example; AMD still produced and sold older CPUs once Ryzen came out, and still produced Zen 1 chips when Zen 2 came out.

So while the next Zen architecture might require a new socket to take advantage of new features it doesn't necessarily mean that no new CPUs for AM4 will come out in 2021.

If the market wants AM4 CPUs and they're profitable to produce I'm sure AMD will continue to make them. I would think even just increases in die quality would allow for higher clock speeds which in turn hypothetically could mean a new version of an older design with slightly higher performance.
You may be correct, but I guess AMD will switch focus to new CPU generations.
Old 16th January 2020
  #1271
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesha View Post
You may be correct, but I guess AMD will switch focus to new CPU generations.
No doubt their focus is future generations. But compared to before where Global Foundries made the wafers TSMC will improve their manufacturing regardless of AMD's focus. So my point is just that if there's money to be made and TSMC has made it easier to produce high quality dies that perform better then there's no reason for AMD not to just order some more products, assuming they'll sell.

I don't even think it has to be a huge improvement, just a sufficient one. Say a current AMD 3xxx tops out at 4.5GHz and next year they're able to bump that up a bit to 4.8GHz, well then why not sell some if the market wants it.

I'm not saying it's going to happen or that people should count on it, just that I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
Old 16th January 2020
  #1272
TNM
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post
I know, but we were talking about CPU efficiency, your comparison didn't seem relevant. Cool feature though
I thought you were talking about plugins with latency, I misunderstood.

And I find that the plugins with latency are the ones that use CPU and are problematic with monitoring. Plugins that use linear phase oversampling like IK stuff for example.

VMR is zero latency and I can use 64 of them, at 32 buffer, on my quad core macbook.. all 64 inputs armed for record with a VMR on each.. zero issue.

So for me, it's absolutely relevant, as the hungry plugins *usually* have latency.
Old 16th January 2020
  #1273
Lives for gear
 

Diva is probably not optimized well for newer type of cpus and large number of cores even with multicore option on. Its pretty old plugin by todays standards (8-9 years I believe), but I am sure Urs will figure it out and make it work properly on newer hardware. So, till the update, its best not to do any serious test with Diva. And certainly is something wrong if a single patch brings down 16/24/32 core cpus to their knees.
Old 16th January 2020
  #1274
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b0se's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM View Post
So for me, it's absolutely relevant, as the hungry plugins *usually* have latency.
A good point indeed!
Old 17th January 2020
  #1275
Gear Addict
 
Emanuel23's Avatar
 

Another surfacing of the Ice Giant cooling system. And this time we hear directly from one of the engineers that developed it. The more I learn about this Thermosiphon technology, the more I want one. She mentions up to 500 W of cooling power, which sounds ideal for a 3rd gen Threadripper:

Old 17th January 2020
  #1276
TNM
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxMulderFBI View Post
Diva is probably not optimized well for newer type of cpus and large number of cores even with multicore option on. Its pretty old plugin by todays standards (8-9 years I believe), but I am sure Urs will figure it out and make it work properly on newer hardware. So, till the update, its best not to do any serious test with Diva. And certainly is something wrong if a single patch brings down 16/24/32 core cpus to their knees.
I've said it multiple times, but I'll say it again.

I am discovering that OSX is affected with current macs (except the 9900K imac, 16" macbook, and 6 core mac mini) with far more than just Diva when it comes to VI's. My testing is up to the 20th VI now, but I took a break today to watch all the LUNA videos. I am devoting half an hour to it per day. The list has grown to almost 140 VI's. It is going to take me time to compile the instance chart, and I won't post it till all are completed .

Anyway, don't want to stray too OT.
Old 17th January 2020
  #1277
Gear Addict
 
PitchSlap's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wr41th View Post
I dunno - I wouldnt be so fast to eye throwing more money at it
It has been discussed a several thousand pages back that Diva seems to suck atm for massive multicore CPUS, even to the point of the "multicore" feature making it worse for some reason. Also CPU Spikes have been a recurring bug in Cubase f.e.
In any event the DAW should handle this, I'm having lots of spikes for example but I have only maybe one or two dropouts when I load big project for the first time and then I seem to be able to throw whatever I want at it.
What patch was it anyways? Does that occur when you have only this one open or in conenction with the other plugins? I'm curious if I can reproduce it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravitron View Post
Yeah. That's crazy that just one Diva patch could do that. There is something wrong with that plugin. I've used some HQ VSTi's through out the years, and there is no excuse why one VSTi patch could bring a top 12-16 core 2020 cpu to its knees. You have to turn on the multicore button in Diva for those patches to work.
Good points.
I was aware the multicore was a bit wonky, I didn't actually turn it on, just changed to draft mode which fixed things. I'm totally fine with draft mode while composing so I wish it was there were global online/offline quality settings.

The patch was called "PD Wishful Thinking".
If it happens frequently I'll see if I can find a common denominator.

Offline rendering speed is also a bit puzzling. Maybe single core is a bottleneck there too? Projects that seem to have plenty of CPU headroom are only rendering at 2x tops where I would've expected more. If others are getting super fast rendering it might be a Reaper thing.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1278
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PitchSlap View Post
Good points.
I was aware the multicore was a bit wonky, I didn't actually turn it on, just changed to draft mode which fixed things. I'm totally fine with draft mode while composing so I wish it was there were global online/offline quality settings.

The patch was called "PD Wishful Thinking".
If it happens frequently I'll see if I can find a common denominator.

Offline rendering speed is also a bit puzzling. Maybe single core is a bottleneck there too? Projects that seem to have plenty of CPU headroom are only rendering at 2x tops where I would've expected more. If others are getting super fast rendering it might be a Reaper thing.
Ok I cant find the patch atm heh.

As to rendering thats hard to compare I think. My current project renders about 4x - Cubase seems to be usign all cores but no hyperthreading for this. Its definitely faster than before but I couldnt say how much.
What has improved drastically in comparison is iZotope RX. That thing just has a greedy hunger for cores it seems. Its so fast now I wouldnt be surprised if they integrate a "swoosh" sound into the progress bar when Ryzen/TR is detected
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1279
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Arksun's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravitron View Post
Yeah. That's crazy that just one Diva patch could do that. There is something wrong with that plugin. I've used some HQ VSTi's through out the years, and there is no excuse why one VSTi patch could bring a top 12-16 core 2020 cpu to its knees. You have to turn on the multicore button in Diva for those patches to work.
Not crazy at all. It's because if you're using a single thread, then its all down to the clock speed, and clock speeds have not gone up much if at all this past decade as we've hit this thermal ceiling.
Diva is notoriously cpu hungry plugin because it uses an insane amount of internal oversampling to deliver that amazing sound it has.

So if Diva's multithreading is turned off then sure, loading all that on a single core that could be 3.5ghz compared to an older cpu with less cores that was at 4ghz, you're not really gonna such a big improvement.

Therefore, either enable multi-threading option so it uses one voice-per-thread, and/or just have Diva running in draft or fast mode during production and set to Great/Divine mode when doing the final render (or mixing down/freezing track to audio)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1280
TNM
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arksun View Post
Not crazy at all. It's because if you're using a single thread, then its all down to the clock speed, and clock speeds have not gone up much if at all this past decade as we've hit this thermal ceiling.
Diva is notoriously cpu hungry plugin because it uses an insane amount of internal oversampling to deliver that amazing sound it has.

So if Diva's multithreading is turned off then sure, loading all that on a single core that could be 3.5ghz compared to an older cpu with less cores that was at 4ghz, you're not really gonna such a big improvement.

Therefore, either enable multi-threading option so it uses one voice-per-thread, and/or just have Diva running in draft or fast mode during production and set to Great/Divine mode when doing the final render (or mixing down/freezing track to audio)
100% this.

Diva is absolutely fine, and can get one instance per every thread on a 9900K or a 9980HK (and i believe an 8700K as well). And I mean virtual cores as well, not per physical core. Well, we can say, per Logical core.

All proved by my recent controversial Diva benchmark.

8 voices in the default great mode and usually divine mode also, per logical core.
My macbook pro 16" got 15 instances, but if I set logic to 128 buffer and armed one of them I could make it 16 (this is the only way Logic would use the last core). Diva multicore disabled.

the mac pros and imac pros can only get 5. The problem is single core performance and no overhead left on the core as you add instances.

After I saw the post you quoted Arksun, I went and played Diva, but WITH the multicore button on, at 64 buffer, on the heaviest patch I could find, on my ancient quad core macbook in the sig (since I returned the 16" as I hated Catalina and it had a headphone out hardware fault).
I set it to 16 voices and played pads with long release to make sure I was using them all. 64 buffer in realtime. *Divine* mode. It went high up on the cpu meter, but this is an old haswell that was speeding up via turbo to about 3.3ghz max. I played for about 15 minutes as I found it so inspiring, some really beautiful pads. Not one single pop or click.

It's obvious that despite geekbench scores, the ryzens just aren't as powerful with these sorts of heavy VI's on a per core basis. It sounds like the same issue the imac pros and mac pros have.

I think a 9980HK with it's smaller TDP could be overclocked really well in a desktop chassis, on quiet noctua air, and would be a great cpu to use. I can't find anyone having tried this, but considering it was able to maintain amazing performance in such a thermally constrained thing as as macbook, I think all cores at over 5GHZ in a desktop is not out of the question.

Anyway, the best overall CPU for the heavy VI work will likely be the 10900K which is due this quarter. As long as it can stay at 5ghz like the 9900K can. If so, 10 cores at 5GHZ will pretty much just crush for VI's.. After experiencing what I experienced with my *many*, ongoing VI tests, and seeing just how much my imac pro suffers vs even the 16" macbook I returned, has really opened my eyes that more cores does not always mean better. I doubt I'd choose a 3950X over a 10900K under any circumstances if I decide to go to Windows in future. It will be a 10900K/128GB ram/that new thermosiphon cooler thing, overclocked to the max, all SSD. Will be killer. Will make Diva my beyatch.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1281
Gear Maniac
 
cubic13's Avatar
To stick to the OP... My thoughts ? Actually, it's more a quick customer report. Honestly, I don't really care about benchmarks. The only thing important for me is : will this setup allow me to use all my VSTis/Fx plug-ins as needed, in any combination ?

As an answer, and using the system detailed in my signature on a daily basis, I am wondering what Intel has more to offer, these days. The whole setup, bought two months ago, is working perfectly, no matter what I do with it, DAW related. Granted, I don't have hundred tracks in my Cubase projects, but still... I do use a fair amount of different VSTis (including outdated/no longer maintained ones) in my main project template.

Since installed with all the soft that I was also using with my previous setup, there hasn't been a single issue or crash with Cubase 10 and all the FX/VSTis involved, this with a significative CPU/ASIO usage drop (and I have added since AAS Lounge Lizard to my arsenal). The most impressing thing is the speed/responsiveness of the whole thing, compared to my old one (a nearly 10 years old i7-870/Windows 7 based system with HDDs, which is still working, by the way...).

So, a perfect trade off between cost (1700 €, including the W10 Pro USB licence) against efficiency. I made a bet when ordering it and don't regret my choice a second : guess that I have a sixth sense to choose the right one, since I started to use PCs as DAWs, a quarter of century back...

Ryzen 3000 series rules, truely...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1282
Gear Maniac
 

Upgrading 3600 to 3900x already.

3600 is not enough for 70+ stereo track projects. It chokes.

I do use plugins kind of heavily (3-5 per channel usually, often up to 10 like on vocals) Even though they're mostly old CPU-light Waves stuff, it all adds up.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1283
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by N1Greg View Post
Upgrading 3600 to 3900x already.

3600 is not enough for 70+ stereo track projects. It chokes.

I do use plugins kind of heavily (3-5 per channel usually, often up to 10 like on vocals) Even though they're mostly old CPU-light Waves stuff, it all adds up.
Hey, which sample rate and buffer size do you work with?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1284
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b0se's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by N1Greg View Post
Upgrading 3600 to 3900x already.

3600 is not enough for 70+ stereo track projects. It chokes.

I do use plugins kind of heavily (3-5 per channel usually, often up to 10 like on vocals) Even though they're mostly old CPU-light Waves stuff, it all adds up.
Why not freeze/print the most CPU demanding ones?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1285
Gear Maniac
 

Old 4 weeks ago
  #1286
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinisterbr View Post
Hey, which sample rate and buffer size do you work with?
1024 buffer, 44khz, 24bit (or whatever is default in Cubase10)

Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post
Why not freeze/print the most CPU demanding ones?
Pain in the butt to work that way. Easier to just upgrade.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1287
Gear Addict
 

For a build on a tight budget, there's now the ryzen 1600 AF. It's basically a slightly lower clocked Ryzen 2600 and only $85. Still unlocked, so an all core overclock to 4ghz should be possible.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1288
Here for the gear
 
Sergenity's Avatar
 

Hi a little off topic and in google everything is muddy,Is it worth it to buy ram 4000+ for Reisen 3900???
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1289
Lives for gear
 
b0se's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergenity View Post
Hi a little off topic and in google everything is muddy,Is it worth it to buy ram 4000+ for Reisen 3900???
3600 with the lowest CAS you can afford is best iirc.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1290
Here for the gear
 
Sergenity's Avatar
 

so if you put 4000 it will make problems or it will just work as much as possible?
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