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Ryzen 3000 series
Old 3 weeks ago
  #271
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Lesha's Avatar
Just a heads up - DRAM and NAND prices are about to rise around 20%, and it's already started to happen, so if you want a new memory kit now is the time to get it.

Sources:

https://www.techpowerup.com/257566/j...-by-20-percent

https://www.dramexchange.com/Market/market_activity

You can check the 16gb 3600 MHz kit memory prices here: https://geizhals.de/?cat=ramddr3&xf=..._3600%7E256_2x

SSD prices: https://geizhals.de/adata-xpg-sx8200...7.html?hloc=de
https://geizhals.de/samsung-ssd-970-...7.html?hloc=de

Last edited by Lesha; 3 weeks ago at 07:33 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #272
Gear Nut
Thanks Pete, I'm a bit confused though by this sentence in your article: "for Cubase users and importantly for those of you working with large sample libraries, this raises questions on the suitability of AMD for handling your workload". Are you warning off all users of large sample libraries from Ryzen or just those on Cubase?

Also as mentioned in a PM I'm confused by the bundles you're offering at Scan, the B450 motherboards you're putting together with the 3900X aren't on the recommended VRM list for that CPU that's been posted here. I want to upgrade ASAP (especially if RAM prices are going up again) but it's not very clear whether the wiser bet is the 9900K or 3900X for audio use.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oboemaroni View Post
Also as mentioned in a PM I'm confused by the bundles you're offering at Scan, the B450 motherboards you're putting together with the 3900X aren't on the recommended VRM list for that CPU that's been posted here. I want to upgrade ASAP (especially if RAM prices are going up again) but it's not very clear whether the wiser bet is the 9900K or 3900X for audio use.
Well, how was that list composed though and by whom? I'm pretty sure we can trust that Pete sells properly working systems.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Kaine View Post
Personal experience having used Asrock on and off in the past. For all the talk about VRM's failing on here, the only ones I've ever seen pop on a new board were on Asrock and it's more than once.

Also, is that card confirmed as working on the ASRock without any modding?
The last generation boards with the same header never received the update to permit it.
Now that I cannot answer. The company touts it in the spec sheet and marketing spiel, but I don't know of anyone with an ASRock x570 mobo and the AIC to test. Most of the reviews (including the many personal ones) have been from desktop gamers and overclockers that I've seen thus far (who don't have a desire to use anything thunderbolt).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Kaine View Post
I work with ASUS first at launch because I know their BIOSes, I can generally overclock on them without thinking about it and I've got both their sales manager and support manager on speed dial. The same can't be said for a lot of other companies, although that's them having proven that I can't trust their support guys to get things solved quickly.

If I can't solve it with ASUS then my second choice tends to be MSI followed by ASRock for certain form factors although rarely overclocked.
Thank you for taking the time to explain. I'm in the market for a new system, and am kicking around the ASRock X570 and R3600 path. Oh and an 828es maybe next year (hence the thunderbolt question). But now pondering just sticking with another board (MSI B450 based) and forgetting thunderbolt as the better option. I only upgrade once every 4 to 5 years generally so I'm looking for room to grow so to speak. Picking the right motherboard at the start seems advantageous. Your response was helpful. Thanks again.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #275
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Well, how was that list composed though and by whom? I'm pretty sure we can trust that Pete sells properly working systems.
Sorry, clumsy wording - the B450 boards are listed as safe on that VRM spreadsheet but I'm after something that will allow an upgrade to the 3950X, and Scan aren't currently offering any X470 boards in their pre-built systems (I don't want X570 because of the fans). I've now emailed with a custom request so hopefully they'll be able to put something together.

One last question for Pete, in your latest article am I right in thinking that, even with the weird results in Cubase the 3900X is still outperforming the 9900K in VI polyphony in most cases?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #276
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Kaine View Post

What I have been initially tackling is what happened to Cubase in this round of testing, you can check that over here: http://www.scanproaudio.info/2019/07...er-comparison/
Thanks for the new tests and sharing the insights, Pete!

Quote:
For Cubase users and importantly for those of you working with large sample libraries, this raises questions on the suitability of AMD for handling your workload.
One thing I was wondering about: When I look at just the benchmarks, what I see is the 3900 matching the 9900K's performance in the worst case and outperforming it at higher buffer settings.

What other factors make you question that processor's suitability for Cubase + sample libraries use? Does the low CPU utilization make you think there might be more issues with Cubase, more erratic behavior? Is it compatibility questions (e.g. with audio interfaces)? Price or system temperature (considering those results were achieved with 3733 RAM)?

Reading that post I can't quite figure out how you arrive at those doubts about the AMD chip's suitability since it could also be read as "matches performance today and has lots of headroom to improve". Not that I'd base any purchasing decision on the hopes that Steinberg fixes issues with Cubase, but the "matches performance" part still stands. What am I missing, just a prudent sense of caution?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #278
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RecklessNL View Post

I'm liking this chart, but I'm having trouble finding any of the green ram. There's site called geizhals where you can filter stuff by the memory clock and CL, but I'm not finding any of the green ones.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #279
Gear Addict
 
highvoltage's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSevenfold View Post
I know somebody in this thread had luck using a pcie to pci adapter inside their case, but it seems like it could be pretty tricky to fit it all in there, at least without case modifications. This is pretty expensive, but still a lot cheaper than a new audio interface. Since I have a RME 9632 PCI card, I think I'll give this a try when I buy a new system later this year.
Maybe slightly off topic, but:

I bought a PCI-e to PCI converter, and works flawlessly with an old RME HDSP 9652. Same Dawbench results (even better):

RME HDSP 9652 working perfectly with PCI-e to PCI converter


This is a very low profile adapter, and the soundcard fits in my case without any modfication.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highvoltage View Post
Maybe slightly off-topic, but:

I bought a PCI-e to PCI converter and works flawlessly with an old RME HDSP 9652. Same Dawbench results (even better):
Yes, thanks, it was your original post that made me realize that was even a possibility.

The way the part with all the I/Os is built in my case, I don't see it fitting inside an unmodified case, however. I've seen various types of adapters, some with what look like USB cables that connect the parts (I'd be wary of those), didn't find any others with an external case like the one I posted the link to, though. Might be overkill, but I'm not good enough at DIY that I'd feel comfortable improvising something inside the DAW case.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #282
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSevenfold View Post
Yes, thanks, it was your original post that made me realize that was even a possibility.

The way the part with all the I/Os is built in my case, I don't see it fitting inside an unmodified case, however. I've seen various types of adapters, some with what look like USB cables that connect the parts (I'd be wary of those), didn't find any others with an external case like the one I posted the link to, though. Might be overkill, but I'm not good enough at DIY that I'd feel comfortable improvising something inside the DAW case.
I have one of those (with the usb cable) that I'm using with an hdsp 9652 - has been absolutely fine.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimp View Post
I have one of those (with the usb cable) that I'm using with an hdsp 9652 - has been absolutely fine.
Awesome! was wondering if that affects latency or something.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #284
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSevenfold View Post
Awesome! was wondering if that affects latency or something.
Think the 'usb' cable is just carrying the PCIe signals directly from the slot to the adapter board, so it's not really usb at all and shouldn't add latency - Same way you can send midi down mic tie lines with the right bodge adapter as it just needs something with 3 conductors.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #285
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Quote:
There's something fundamentally 'wonky' about that video.

AMD touts 25% increased performance. He calculates a performance uplift of 25% over the 1800x which equals 2023 points. But then he compares that to the 3900x which is a part with 50% more cores, and it scores 3100.

He seems to have decided that increased performance must mean increased clock speed, whereas all the numbers make perfect sense if looking at actual performance using a benchmark rather than looking at clock speed.

I honestly don't understand what the problem is.

Either me or Jim just had a brain-fart.

I think it was him.

(edit)

In addition it's ludicrous for him to be upset about AMD selling "trash silicon" as the lowest performing dies, especially since he lauded AMD's decision to use chiplets to maximize yields on wafers. Maximizing those yields absolutely is about more than just saving the best silicon, it's about getting more usable silicon in general. The least performing silicon goes to the lowest part of the product stack and the best performing goes to the top (i.e. EPYC). When he moans about the best not ending up in desktop CPUs he's basically either wanting AMD to cannibalize its EPYC lineup, or get rid of it, or throw out the lowest performing chips for a pure loss, or... well... I don't know...

It's an odd little film by this guy.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #286
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaGary View Post
...For example, good old PCI (not PCIe) was only about 1-gigabit, yet offered terrific low-latency because its low-overhead hardware-based point-to-point protocol data path to the RAM and CPU. PCIe does much more with the point-to-point (no need for link arbitration) connectivity and ramps up the bandwidth using lanes. ...
Okay, the pedantic itch has been scratched today. See ya!
By coincidence, I have an unusual familiarity with this architecture. The problem pci had was its a shared bus and all devices shared it in a cooperative, rather than pre-emptive manner. Due to this and a particular device setting (essentially the number of pci clocks assigned to each device), the video card tended to hog the bus and cause gapping in the audio device. Reducing the number of clocks allocated to the video card was a big help, but it was set to a default by the bios and required a special program to reduce it and give the pci sound card more cycles to do its work.

From what I recall back then, lots of people were having problems with pci bus based sound devices.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #287
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuieve View Post
I personally was all set on 3900x but now looks like I'll just settle for 3600!
Exactly like me. Going to pick up a 3600 later this week. IF I need the extra cores, I'll go for a 3950X next year and sell the 3600.

Currently, the 3600 is almost 300 euros less than the 3900X. And I'm not even maxing out my overclocked i7-3820 during mixing now. But better performance for low latency recording would be most welcome. Not to mention the reduced TDP.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #288
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Lesha's Avatar
There might be a possible bug which lowers the CPU boost clock when using DRAM frequencies of 3600 MHz or higher.

https://old.reddit.com/r/Amd/comment...e_limit_boost/

Last edited by Lesha; 3 weeks ago at 11:01 AM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #289
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goony's Avatar
I'm super happy with my Ryzen 3600 system flies through everything so far, so much better than my i5 in every way
Old 3 weeks ago
  #290
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Lesha's Avatar
I agree that competitiveness is great, especially if it drives the prices down.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #291
Gear Nut
 

Yeah as someone who's just built a system around a 3700x and is very happy with it, right now I'd still recommend intel for anyone who's not a serial tinkerer, is primarily building for audio and isn't hugely concerned about the price tag. It took me two motherboards, four bios updates and 3 complete rebuilds to get everything working properly - I was probably an edge case (UAD cards) but audio people tend to hit edge cases.

Right now there's far more info out there about working intel configurations. Brand new platforms always have niggles and the majority prefer an easy life over a little extra value or performance.

Give it 3-6 months and I'll probably change my mind, give it 12-18 and I'll be very surprised if I haven't - it's looking increasingly as though intel don't have anything to keep them competitive in the medium term aside from price cuts.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #292
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Lesha's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimp View Post
Give it 3-6 months and I'll probably change my mind, give it 12-18 and I'll be very surprised if I haven't - it's looking increasingly as though intel don't have anything to keep them competitive in the medium term aside from price cuts.
From the looks of it, it won't be soon

Intel admits it won’t catch up with AMD’s 7nm chips until 2021
Old 3 weeks ago
  #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedberg View Post
Sorry, but i get a little tired of this blind idolizing of AMD.
While that's true in some cases in other cases it's just that some feel that Intel fans will never be "satisfied" which is also fatiguing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedberg View Post
For the use case “priority on low latency VI:s” which is important for a ton of us, the 9900K is just 5% behind the similarly priced 3900X.
But see, this is one good example. "just behind" disqualified AMD CPUs for a long time. It was often never a matter of "how good a CPU do I need", it was simply "get the Intel CPU because it performs better". 5% is 5%. Behind is behind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedberg View Post
A gap that’s mitigated when looking at improved single thread performance
I don't understand how it is mitigated?. You can't on the one hand say you need this particular performance and acknowledge that gap and then point to other performance to say the gap is mitigated. I mean, is this VI performance important or not?

If single thread performance was making up for it for polyphony/VI then we should have seen it in the test. And if the test can't show it then it never could - yet it was pointed to for years as the proof that Intel was better.

Also, If this is pointing to CPU-Z then AMD is 'only 7% behind', and if you're looking at Passmark the 3900x is ahead.

But why are we ignoring the DSP test if we're talking about mitigating a performance deficit on VI?...

If this is about either VI or DSP and the Intel CPU is behind in VI then the actual test we should care about is the DSP test - that is where a deficit would be mitigated... And the 3900x performs 2.5% better than a 9940x which is $1350!

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedberg View Post
and the fact the we don’t need separate graphics.
No, but you do need a cooler. And many of the people that actually are buying for VI performance already have a video card. So a built-in GPU is a benefit for sure, but it's "mitigated" by the need to buy a cooler and made irrelevant for all those who already have a video card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedberg View Post
Add to that the AMD irregularities in Cubase and you have a perfectly intelligent Intel choice.
Just turn Asio Guard off.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #294
Gear Maniac
 

I'm following this thread at overclock.net:
https://www.overclock.net/forum/13-a...0-x570-21.html

It looks like a couple of folks over there were able to overclock memory to 3800Mhz while keeping the Infinity Fabric at a 1:1 ratio (1900MHz).
Old 3 weeks ago
  #295
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSevenfold View Post
Thanks for the new tests and sharing the insights, Pete!



One thing I was wondering about: When I look at just the benchmarks, what I see is the 3900 matching the 9900K's performance in the worst case and outperforming it at higher buffer settings.

What other factors make you question that processor's suitability for Cubase + sample libraries use? Does the low CPU utilization make you think there might be more issues with Cubase, more erratic behavior? Is it compatibility questions (e.g. with audio interfaces)? Price or system temperature (considering those results were achieved with 3733 RAM)?

Reading that post I can't quite figure out how you arrive at those doubts about the AMD chip's suitability since it could also be read as "matches performance today and has lots of headroom to improve". Not that I'd base any purchasing decision on the hopes that Steinberg fixes issues with Cubase, but the "matches performance" part still stands. What am I missing, just a prudent sense of caution?
I too am not sure why ScanPro suggests that intel might be the better choice when the numbers seem to speak otherwise....Hoping someone can clarify this soon.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #296
Now that some people actually have the 3700x, is the 3700x actually better then the 8700k? The same? Or any idea how they compare?

This would be my first build so all the tinkering required might put me off a bit.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #297
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What tinkering are you referring to?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #298
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
What tinkering are you referring to?
This:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimp View Post
Yeah as someone who's just built a system around a 3700x and is very happy with it, right now I'd still recommend intel for anyone who's not a serial tinkerer, is primarily building for audio and isn't hugely concerned about the price tag. It took me two motherboards, four bios updates and 3 complete rebuilds to get everything working properly - I was probably an edge case (UAD cards) but audio people tend to hit edge cases.

Right now there's far more info out there about working intel configurations. Brand new platforms always have niggles and the majority prefer an easy life over a little extra value or performance.

Give it 3-6 months and I'll probably change my mind, give it 12-18 and I'll be very surprised if I haven't - it's looking increasingly as though intel don't have anything to keep them competitive in the medium term aside from price cuts.
I haven't built a pc before so I don't want to be messing with anything thats too confusing or odd.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imhungry View Post
This:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimp

Yeah as someone who's just built a system around a 3700x and is very happy with it, right now I'd still recommend intel for anyone who's not a serial tinkerer, is primarily building for audio and isn't hugely concerned about the price tag. It took me two motherboards, four bios updates and 3 complete rebuilds to get everything working properly - I was probably an edge case (UAD cards) but audio people tend to hit edge cases.

Right now there's far more info out there about working intel configurations. Brand new platforms always have niggles and the majority prefer an easy life over a little extra value or performance.
I haven't built a pc before so I don't want to be messing with anything thats too confusing or odd.
If you have UAD-2 PCIe cards that are solo, duo or quad then you would want to find the exact combination someone has already used that works.

If you have UAD-2 PCIe OCTO you should be good.

If you don't have any UAD-2 PCIe cards at all then you're apparently not the same edge case as "mimp".

PS: People have struggled on Intel systems with the exact same cards, depending on the socket / mobo configuration. The problem is because of what UA did, not Intel or AMD.

In addition to that people have struggled with Thunderbolt on Intel systems.

So this whole "Just buy Intel and you'll be spared niggles and struggling" is just not necessarily true. Some users get stuck on either platform. It's just part of the risk.

PPS: My system was super-easy to build. I knew my UAD-2 wouldn't work when I built it, and after a year a BIOS update came out and I decided not to sell the card which I had planned to do because now the card works.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #300
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
If you have UAD-2 PCIe cards that are solo, duo or quad then you would want to find the exact combination someone has already used that works.

If you have UAD-2 PCIe OCTO you should be good.

If you don't have any UAD-2 PCIe cards at all then you're apparently not the same edge case as "mimp".

PS: People have struggled on Intel systems with the exact same cards, depending on the socket / mobo configuration. The problem is because of what UA did, not Intel or AMD.

In addition to that people have struggled with Thunderbolt on Intel systems.

So this whole "Just buy Intel and you'll be spared niggles and struggling" is just not necessarily true. Some users get stuck on either platform. It's just part of the risk.

PPS: My system was super-easy to build. I knew my UAD-2 wouldn't work when I built it, and after a year a BIOS update came out and I decided not to sell the card which I had planned to do because now the card works.
Yes, like I said the UA thing was an edge case, but you also have bios issues that mean most recent Linux distributions don't boot, motherboards that don't post if you change ram settings, boost clocks not working properly etc - just spend 5 minutes looking at r/amd on Reddit and you'll see it's not exactly plain sailing for a lot of folk right now. It's a great platform that's only going to get better, but it's also brand new and has some teething problems.

You are correct on that it's perfectly possible to hit similar issues on intel - my trusty intel i7 2600k, also bought just after launch, was a complete mess - they had to recall *all* of the first gen motherboards from what I remember due to some issue with SATA performance.

My point is that as of right now, there are way more people on here currently using intel, the latest gen has been out over 6 months and they've not really changed much since skylake, so you can do a bit of research and preempt most problems before you buy. There's maybe 10 people posting on here with actual Ryzen 3000 systems which just isn't the same coverage in terms of potential issues.

Basically, if you're going to be an early adopter then great, you get the best stuff first - just do it with your eyes open, and preferably from somewhere with a straightforward returns process.
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