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Anyone ditched Mac for Windows PC? (Mac -> Windows) Drum Machines & Samplers
Old 1 week ago
  #61
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wegface's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
But that's the key point. If you have engineers collaborating to combine components from their respective areas of expertise, and software and hardware engineers collaborating for tight integration, you get different results in terms of performance and reliability than by just combining generic off the shelf parts and generic software.
As an example: a driver written explicitly for a specific piece of hardware, with performance as an engineering objective, will perform better than a generic driver.

Some customers prefer professionally engineered and built computers (Mac or PC) for performance reasons.




The point at the heart of the discussion:

- you can focus on superficial spec data like CPU speed, RAM capacity, ability to exchange components, VRAM, and, especially, price vs. these specs
> home built wins, by far

- you can focus on specs like CPU speed, RAM capacity, VRAM, and, in addition to that, software integration, reliability, resale value, miniaturisation, etc.
> pre-built (PC or, especially, Mac) wins, by far
But you are preaching to the choir, I exclusively use macOS, have a house full of Apple devices and dislike windows extremely. But I can still point out flaws in these devices and choices made by the designer, without it needing to be blasphemous. People use what they use it doesn’t affect me. But I do not think the OP will get a better experience overall by switching to pc even if he gets better performance- that is the key here. Performance, and experience are not the same thing.
Old 1 week ago
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wegface View Post
But I can still point out flaws in these devices and choices made by the designer, without it needing to be blasphemous.

"Siri, open Finder Preferences".

Siri: "B-b-but, I don't know what you're saying, I don't know what that's supposed to mean, can you repeat, please?"


Old 1 week ago
  #63
TJT
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by noobist View Post

My friend has a beast of a desktop PC in his studio, but he struggles to get less than 512 samples with his Orion32 @ 96k with random drop outs (I get 32 samples w my Mac and never missed a beat...). Also his Win10 PC is forever automatically updating and breaking software - and those updates take forever to install, not great when you need the studio computer in a snap. It randomly needs to repair upon boot every now and then too... And sometimes will not post until after a few tries. However I am assuming this isn't the experience most people have??
Are you going to run at 96khz? Because, I would say that my guess is that most people don't. I've never even contemplated doing that. So, that eliminates a lot of people's experience. That could be the source of your friend's problems with his Windows machine, I don't know though. I've pretty much always been a PC user, although I had a Mac way back in the day. I've got no issues with Macs, but I like good prices and the flexibility and backwards compatibility of PCs. And I've never really had problems doing professional studio work. But, I run at 24/44, which is the format that people want stuff to be sent anyway 99% of the time. I just upgraded from an HP machine after using it for 8 years. Worked great! It started off Win 7, and then upgraded to 10 without a hitch..

I just built a new 8700 machine. It was super easy. Not overclocking though. So, that could potentially get hairy, I wouldn't know. Windows updates? Well, if you are in a studio that doesn't have clients sitting there behind your back, they are not an issue. It just asks if you wanna do it or not. Pretty much only when your system is idle I believe.

Quote:

THE BUILD
I'd be looking at building a desktop PC with 8700k *(or 9th gen), 32GB RAM, NVMe SSD, and a GPU of some sort for other tasks / the odd game, watercooling, z370 w Thunderbolt 3 (I need my original UA Apollo to connect to it)

I am mostly concerned with SINGLE CORE performance as I use Ableton Live which appears to be poorly optimised for high core count CPUs with larger projects. Although I also do a big of 3D modelling, video editing, graphic design so 6 or 8 cores won't be wasted. SO I am thinking about a potentially over-clocked 8700k with watercooling to keep the noise down.

I use an original silver-faced Universal Audio Apollo with Thunderbolt addon card and absolutely need this to work flawlessly with the PC.

Make sure you read through this then:

Apollo Thunderbolt Windows Compatibility – Universal Audio Support Home


Main thing is, are you working in the studio mostly? Or is portability important? If not, I do think Desktop is a great way to go.

ETA: my DAW machines have always been online. Never needed to take them off. Although, with my laptop, I turn off WiFi because I get clicks.
Old 1 week ago
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
Haha, you just stated that you don't get the difference between hardware (mobo) and software (OS).
Waiting for the proof your purported mastery of underlying technology combined with your massive intellect has translated into superior recordings.
Old 1 week ago
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troggg View Post
your massive intellect
Wow, man, thanks! Much appreciated.


Seriously, though - ad hominem attacks are a convenient way to distract from actually talking about technology. Like measurable, verifiable differences between USB and Thunderbolt speeds and their effect on latency.


The OP's requirements include Thunderbolt, so a set up like yours, with an OS that does not support it, is not terribly relevant for his needs.


Technology has nothing whatsoever to do with mixing skill, sound engineering skill, musical skill, or the fact that it's possible to get great musical results from a computer set up that dates back to dinosaurs - or gear that's even older, before computers existed.
Old 1 week ago
  #66
Gear Maniac
 

With the MPros not fast enough or offering powerful enough graphics options, and based on the really positive words about W10 on this forum, I decided to build a custom PC two years back. Encountered a lot of issues/BS for 2 months (there's a thread on here called "Windows 10 is not for professionals" which is a very clickbait-y title but many of the complaints in there mirrored my experience.). Eventually got sick of it and converted it to a hack. Zero issues, including using a Thunderbolt interface and a very powerful NVIDIA card. I will probably buy one of the new MPros once they come out (assuming they don't suck), but dollar for dollar this has been a great machine and I would do it again in a heartbeat. If you're comfortable with building computers (I wasn't when I started, I am now), I'd look into it.
Old 1 week ago
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
The OP's requirements include Thunderbolt, so a set up like yours, with an OS that does not support it, is not terribly relevant for his needs.

Technology has nothing whatsoever to do with mixing skill, sound engineering skill, musical skill, or the fact that it's possible to get great musical results from a computer set up that dates back to dinosaurs - or gear that's even older, before computers existed.
1) What's also not relevant for his needs is you inventing an opinion from me on whether he should replicate my 2012 system.

2) In other words, for all your bluster, you haven't recorded anything you'd think anyone would want to hear.

3) You're missing the obvious fact that this is specialist forum intended for people who use computers to make music, as opposed to a forum solely dedicated to building, studying or purchasing computers.

4) Generally, people who brag about their mastery of underlying technology apply it to real world projects like actually building something.
Old 1 week ago
  #68
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why would recording at 96k be a PC issue?

I've just done a huge 24/96k session from British grove studios using my windows 10 DAW, no issues.I produced a lot of music for Linn records high resolution studio master donloads all at 24/96k If you're using windows 10 pro then updates aren't an issue as you choose when to update. If it was a problem I wouldn't be using windows 10 trust me. I have clients and deadlines I can't afford to be unreliable have an unstable system.


Windows 10 CAN work fine.I'll add I have an untweaked vanilla install.



there's thread on this forum about NEVER buying a Mac pro because of 3 yeasr of issues, there will always be somebody who has a bad expereince with anything.

My MAcbook pro battery exploded! I went through two power supplies. I've had HP laptops since then and had zero hardware issues.


You'll find many people are workiong quite happily with PC windows 10/8/7/ but they genereally get on with their work and don't complain on forums.



MC
Old 1 week ago
  #69
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wegface's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook View Post
why would recording at 96k be a PC issue?

I've just done a huge 24/96k session from British grove studios using my windows 10 DAW, no issues.I produced a lot of music for Linn records high resolution studio master donloads all at 24/96k If you're using windows 10 pro then updates aren't an issue as you choose when to update. If it was a problem I wouldn't be using windows 10 trust me. I have clients and deadlines I can't afford to be unreliable have an unstable system.


Windows 10 CAN work fine.I'll add I have an untweaked vanilla install.



there's thread on this forum about NEVER buying a Mac pro because of 3 yeasr of issues, there will always be somebody who has a bad expereince with anything.

My MAcbook pro battery exploded! I went through two power supplies. I've had HP laptops since then and had zero hardware issues.


You'll find many people are workiong quite happily with PC windows 10/8/7/ but they genereally get on with their work and don't complain on forums.



MC
Back when 24/96 was “new” I always used it, but these days I always use 24/44. Lots of stored projects and only so much storage space is the reason I suppose. Or maybe as I get older my hearing gets a little worse, I dunno.
Old 1 week ago
  #70
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
That's a good point that we can agree to disagree on.
An amateur home builder does not the same training, education, experience etc. that a hardware engineer, regardless of platform, has. I wouldn't think this is even up for debate.


Do you actually think a home builder could engineer a T2 chip, or engineer the integration between T2 and, say, SSD control? He/she can buy off the shelf components, search the Internet for part compatibility, and stick them together so they kind of work. But no more than that.


As a home builder, how would you approach design of a trackpad, so that the surface is smooth and does not stick, and responds well to touch? Which materials would you use? Would you write a dedicated driver for your design, or use a generic one that comes with the OS?
This comparison is the most ridiculous thing I have read here on Gearslutz in a long time.

Serious, wtf?
Old 1 week ago
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troggg View Post
2) In other words, for all your bluster, you haven't recorded anything you'd think anyone would want to hear.
Hahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha (sniff..)
Old 1 week ago
  #72
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by troggg View Post
<random stuff about Apple almost 30 years ago deleted for brevity>
So in other words, you last used the Mac before OS X, before the switch to Intel, and probably before (or right around) the time Steve Jobs came back and completely turned the company around.
Old 1 week ago
  #73
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by noobist View Post
I have been a long term Mac user, but Apple's higher-end desktop machines are just simply too expensive for me now. They seem to have gotten even more expensive in the last few years... Their Macs are heading in the wrong direction. My plan was to always sell my old Mac (great resale value) and upgrade... But I really think Apple have lost the plot with their modern desktop choices and their laptops are overpriced and thermally constrained.
Are you really here for information? Honestly this is a ridiculous way to start off a conversation. Apple prices generally *never* change. They always float around a value (so yes they might actually change...but not to the degree you are implying). Their laptops are not overpriced. Too expensive for your budget at the moment? Possibly. That does not make them overpriced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noobist View Post
I used to use Windows back in the day, but moved over after having latency issues, performance issues, OS issues... Seems like people think Windows 10 has come a long way though, and MacOS has it's share of issues nowadays...
What issues are those? Care to share? And not sure how Windows 10 has "come a long way"....it hasn't changed all that much since the day of release so not sure what you're referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noobist View Post
Wondering how other people who have moved from Mac OS to Windows have found the journey? While I prefer Mac OS the hardware upgrade paths with Windows are so much better, and less expensive (in desktop world). Or being a long term Mac fanboy am I going to regret this decision?
Mac fanboys would know the "thermally constrained" thing is nonsense. They released a bugfix causing that problem almost instantly and if you're expecting a laptop system to perform the same as a desktop you're barking up the wrong tree. Won't ever happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noobist View Post
My friend has a beast of a desktop PC in his studio, but he struggles to get less than 512 samples with his Orion32 @ 96k with random drop outs (I get 32 samples w my Mac and never missed a beat...). Also his Win10 PC is forever automatically updating and breaking software - and those updates take forever to install, not great when you need the studio computer in a snap. It randomly needs to repair upon boot every now and then too... And sometimes will not post until after a few tries. However I am assuming this isn't the experience most people have??
Turn off auto-update and update it at your leisure. I have several Windows 10 machines myself and have never seen them randomly need to repair while booting. That is not normal behavior so something is wrong with your friend's setup. In fact the boot time of Win10 is pretty damn fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noobist View Post
The new MacBook Pro.... Well to get the same 1TB SSD I'd be looking at around $5,000 AUD - that's FREAKIN RIDICULOUS.... I don't want that horrid keyboard, or that silly touch-bar. And seems they thermal throttle worse than ever. Thanks Apple... I'd need to downsize the drive to 512GB, stay with 16GB RAM, but get one of those newer 6 core CPUs.
If you're expecting to the get the same performance from a new MacBook Pro as the PC hardware you just quoted, especially in a hot environment, keep dreaming. Why would you think this is even possible? And please, stop with this "thermal throttle worse than ever" nonsense. The exact opposite is true.

Again are you really here to discuss? "horrid keyboard", "silly touch bar", "thermally throttled". It sounds to me like you read a bit too much on the web and take that as gospel. Have you used the keyboard or touchbar yet? I would assume not if you're currently using a 2013 model. Some people love them, some hate them. I personally love both. I wish the keyboard on my 2017 work Mac was quieter but I love the feel. The keyboard on the 2018 is quieter since they added the silicone sleeve around the key bases (and hopefully helped fix the problems people have been having with the 2016/2017 keyboards). And why is the touch bar silly? You don't find the idea of a programmable row of keys more handy than a constrained set of hardware keys?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noobist View Post
So... Here I am at a crossroad. Do I get a new MacBook Pro 2018 (sell my current laptop to help fund) or spend a little more and build a beast of desktop Windows PC to compliment my ageing laptop (which I still need to gig)?

Help me guys. I have been stuck on this decision for a while now.
If you expect a new MacBook Pro to be the desktop system you are talking about you're going to be sadly disappointed. You buy a laptop for various reasons, and they're completely different than building your own desktop. If you truly prefer mac OS you're not going to be happy moving to Windows. My personal experience using both OSes on a daily basis is that I don't like using Windows 10. My preference for the past 15 years has been macOS and it remains that way. I've got a nice Dell XPS 13 for various side jobs I do. Nice laptop but it still isn't a Mac.
Old 1 week ago
  #74
Gear Head
 
wegface's Avatar
 

OP says the new MBP is crazy too expensive, and then states he is considering spending a little more than the new MacBook Pro to build a PC.
The build price for his part list is something around the 4000 AUS dollar mark, and that is actually skimping on a few things. Going all out and he is right- his pc will cost more than the "crazy" expensive MacBook. So price clearly is not the motivation. Confused as to what we are actually discussing at this point. Trolled to the max.
Old 1 week ago
  #75
TJT
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook View Post
why would recording at 96k be a PC issue?



MC
I said it *could* be the issue with his friend's setup having random dropouts and getting nothing better than 512ms latency. Not that it *would*.

I'm saying it in context with the idea that the sample set of users with Windows machines running at 96khz will probably be small.

I'm just taking a guess. But, if OP won't be running his sessions at 96khz, that could make things a bit easier.
Old 1 week ago
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJT View Post
I said it *could* be the issue with his friend's setup having random dropouts and getting nothing better than 512ms latency. Not that it *would*.

I'm saying it in context with the idea that the sample set of users with Windows machines running at 96khz will probably be small.

I'm just taking a guess. But, if OP won't be running his sessions at 96khz, that could make things a bit easier.
the operating system has absolutely no relevance to sample rate recording...period...…




MC
Old 1 week ago
  #77
TJT
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook View Post
the operating system has absolutely no relevance to sample rate recording...period...…




MC
when did I say that??

Man.. even when you don't want to get dragged into the Windows/Mac debate, people find a way to pretend you're debating it!!
Old 1 week ago
  #78
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because you made a statement about 'the sample set of windows users recording at 96k being small'...why would you make that assumption? what has the OS got to do with what sample rate people rerecord at?



just saying...


MC
Old 1 week ago
  #79
TJT
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook View Post
because you made a statement about 'the sample set of windows users recording at 96k being small'...why would you make that assumption? what has the OS got to do with what sample rate people rerecord at?



just saying...


MC
I'm making that assumption because I think that most Audio Engineers and/or Music Production houses are using Macs. Not because they are inherently "better" but because it's industry standard and clients want to see them. And those professionals, I'm *assuming*, often run at 24/96 for some of the same reasons.

I'm making the assumption that a lot of musicians using Windows in a home studio on a professional basis, like ME!!, run at 24/44 because

- I'll take much improved roundtrip latency over a perceived bump in quality at 96khz
- I won't have to spend triple the price for an audio interface the has near zero latency just so I can run my sessions at 96khz
- I can run a million tracks at 24/44 without my hard drives skipping a beat, on a mid-range PC with *gulp*.. mechanical drives.

I don't know. You can certainly take a poll of Windows music and audio professionals to see who is running at 24/96 vs. 24/44. I'm not claiming to know this for a fact. Just trying to address the OP's points head on, based on my experience.
Old 1 week ago
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJT View Post
And those professionals, I'm *assuming*, often run at 24/96 for some of the same reasons.

A little off topic: last year, Ronan Chris Murphy (King Crimson, Steve Morse,..) ran an informal poll to find out what the preferred sample rate is among professionals.

Quote from the article:
"The result? About 95% of the respondents said they were doing the majority of their work at 44.1 or 48k! Literally only about 5 or 6 of the full time pros were doing work at high sample rates!"


The whole article is a good read - like pretty much everything he writes.
Old 1 week ago
  #81
TJT
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
A little off topic: last year, Ronan Chris Murphy (King Crimson, Steve Morse,..) ran an informal poll to find out what the preferred sample rate is among professionals.

Quote from the article:
"The result? About 95% of the respondents said they were doing the majority of their work at 44.1 or 48k! Literally only about 5 or 6 of the full time pros were doing work at high sample rates!"


The whole article is a good read - like pretty much everything he writes.
Well, that's interesting. Honestly, I wouldn't know, as I barely ever frequent a big recording studio.
Old 1 week ago
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJT View Post
I'm making that assumption because I think that most Audio Engineers and/or Music Production houses are using Macs. Not because they are inherently "better" but because it's industry standard and clients want to see them. And those professionals, I'm *assuming*, often run at 24/96 for some of the same reasons.

I'm making the assumption that a lot of musicians using Windows in a home studio on a professional basis, like ME!!, run at 24/44 because

- I'll take much improved roundtrip latency over a perceived bump in quality at 96khz
- I won't have to spend triple the price for an audio interface the has near zero latency just so I can run my sessions at 96khz
- I can run a million tracks at 24/44 without my hard drives skipping a beat, on a mid-range PC with *gulp*.. mechanical drives.

I don't know. You can certainly take a poll of Windows music and audio professionals to see who is running at 24/96 vs. 24/44. I'm not claiming to know this for a fact. Just trying to address the OP's points head on, based on my experience.
OK, we are both trying to help the OP, that's good. I'm trying to help the OP because I've done exactly what he's asking: Moved from Mac to windows successfully without going back. :D


MC
Old 1 week ago
  #83
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook View Post
I run a commercial studio and use win10, I've never had an update cause me to:
1: stop working
2: Render my system unusable.

You just need to tell windows when you want to update, I have it set to outside my working hours which are 10am- 10 pm.
Thanks for the input! I wish this were the case for everyone. Seems it may depend on what particular plugins / software people use.

General consensus seems to be that people suggest taking the machine offline and disabling updates - not an option for me - I absolutely need the machine connected to the internet for collaboration projects with Dropbox and all the other tasks (uploading videos, software updates etc) - so you’re success is reassuring, however it doesn’t seem to be most people’s experience. Good to know you can force it to update within certain time schedule - although running my PC overnight is unlikely with our absurd power prices here in South Australia (they were the highest in the world a short time ago), surely something I can work around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I’d say it depends on how deep you got involved in the Mac world and are used not only to the hardware but the OS, and/or iOS peripherals and apps.

I’d say if you want to stay in the Mac World on a budget for your music and be compatible with an older Apollo sound card, you can still grab a MacPro 5,1 for about 1K and if it’s a lower figure cpu you can upgrade to a 12-core 3.46 for 2-300 more bucks.

The only drawback I can see is no Thunderbolt.
...
For video editing however this machine wouldn’t be sufficient (even though you can install 2 graphic cards)

For video editing the cheapest option for bang for buck is a Win machine, no doubts about that.

If you have to have a machine that will do both music and video on a budget I’d go with a hackintosh build, so you can be either Win or OS X and yet not have to break the bank
Hey Nico, thanks for the input - very good suggestions. I did consider the Hackintosh route, but really it’s the mucking around with tweaking Windows that I don’t care for - and it seems the same deal for a Hackintosh… Plus getting thunderbolt to work on Hackintosh is problematic…

Well I’m pretty deep in the Apple ecosystem… Everything in our household is Apple… I do indeed believe the old Mac Pro with upgrades is a great option for many, and still somewhat of a beast, but I really need single core CPU performance - those old Xeons just don’t get close to the 8th gen Intel CPUs. My workflow in Ableton seems to be single core dependant (that is the bottleneck for me at the moment). I don’t want to trade some of my UA Apollo’s capabilities by running firewire.. So I’d rather stick with Thundebolt. I also make use of USB 3 (syncing DJ USB sticks is much faster this way - although my external HDDs I could move to internal drives).

——

Regarding comments on price:

The 8700k water-cooled (AIO) PC build is be looking around $3600 AUD vs a MacBook Pro @ $4,739. Difference is if I build PC I have to keep my old MacBook Pro for older projects (I’ve been using Audio Units plugins all these years). Yet if I get a MacBook Pro I can sell my current MacBook Pro for around $2000 AUD - upgrade then costs me under $2k. Either way I need to have a laptop for gigging and a colour accurate screen for my work - not interested in Windows laptops (certainly done a lot of research around them). So actually cheaper for me to go with a new MacBook Pro 15 but differing compromises. However long term the upgrade paths for my studio PC open up, but I would still need to (less often) upgrade my laptop for gigging (maybe keep my eye out for super deals on used MacBook Pros - say $1500 in a couple more years)

I can’t afford an iMac Pro and the older Mac Pros just don’t have enough single core performance for what I need, they also lack thunderbolt and USB 3 which are useful to me. I use a lot of CPU heavy plugins (U-He, Spectrasonics etc) and currently max out my CPU with every session. I need to keep buffer settings no higher than 128 samples for live input of soft synths (I do have a good bit of outboard analog synths, but still use those u-he plugins a lot).

PC

Pros of PC
- More CPU performance for the same or less cost
- Watercooling (no more thermal throttling - that’s a pretty big deal here where we have hot summers)
- Upgradeability (hold crap!)
- Noise - can build a very quiet water-cooled beast
- More performance

Cons of PC
- My old projects wont open (yeah I’ve used Audio Units all these years…)
- Windows 10 updates seem to be an issue for some
- Tweaking - Need to keep on top of optimisation & virus scans etc.

MAC

Pros of MacBook Pro
- One machine for studio and live
- All my old projects still work
- Cheaper option to upgrade to (if I sell my current laptop to fund it)
- No tweaking necessary

Cons of MacBook Pro
- Thermal constrains have stopped me from working on warmer summer days (no I can’t install a reverse cycle)
- Noise (the fans get quite loud in my older Macbook Pro - although the newer ones seem to be quite a bit quieter.
Old 1 week ago
  #84
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight View Post
Are you really here for information? Honestly this is a ridiculous way to start off a conversation. Apple prices generally *never* change. They always float around a value (so yes they might actually change...but not to the degree you are implying). Their laptops are not overpriced. Too expensive for your budget at the moment? Possibly. That does not make them overpriced.



What issues are those? Care to share? And not sure how Windows 10 has "come a long way"....it hasn't changed all that much since the day of release so not sure what you're referring to.



Mac fanboys would know the "thermally constrained" thing is nonsense. They released a bugfix causing that problem almost instantly and if you're expecting a laptop system to perform the same as a desktop you're barking up the wrong tree. Won't ever happen.



Turn off auto-update and update it at your leisure. I have several Windows 10 machines myself and have never seen them randomly need to repair while booting. That is not normal behavior so something is wrong with your friend's setup. In fact the boot time of Win10 is pretty damn fast.



If you're expecting to the get the same performance from a new MacBook Pro as the PC hardware you just quoted, especially in a hot environment, keep dreaming. Why would you think this is even possible? And please, stop with this "thermal throttle worse than ever" nonsense. The exact opposite is true.

Again are you really here to discuss? "horrid keyboard", "silly touch bar", "thermally throttled". It sounds to me like you read a bit too much on the web and take that as gospel. Have you used the keyboard or touchbar yet? I would assume not if you're currently using a 2013 model. Some people love them, some hate them. I personally love both. I wish the keyboard on my 2017 work Mac was quieter but I love the feel. The keyboard on the 2018 is quieter since they added the silicone sleeve around the key bases (and hopefully helped fix the problems people have been having with the 2016/2017 keyboards). And why is the touch bar silly? You don't find the idea of a programmable row of keys more handy than a constrained set of hardware keys?



If you expect a new MacBook Pro to be the desktop system you are talking about you're going to be sadly disappointed. You buy a laptop for various reasons, and they're completely different than building your own desktop. If you truly prefer mac OS you're not going to be happy moving to Windows. My personal experience using both OSes on a daily basis is that I don't like using Windows 10. My preference for the past 15 years has been macOS and it remains that way. I've got a nice Dell XPS 13 for various side jobs I do. Nice laptop but it still isn't a Mac.
Yeah I think there is something wrong with my friend's PC - annoying that we can't work out what though. Already found a bad RAM module in the past.

No I don't expect a laptop to have the same performance as a desktop... But I have no intention of buying any of the current Mac desktops... I'd rather go PC if I am going to go desktop (unless Apple bring out a more affordable high performance computer with consumer grade parts, rather than expensive server based parts). Sure if I had the money I'd buy an iMac Pro (or hold out for new Mac Pros, but I simply don't at the moment). The MacBook Pro 15 outperforms the current iMacs by the way.

Regarding throttling there are some Youtubers who have shown that with realistic tasks (not benchmarks) the i7 2.2, i7 2.6, i9 2.9 all perform almost exactly the same. That's pretty bad. Yes Macs have always had thermal constrains, but the extent of the newer models seems worse to me, however only really an issue with multi core loads on the 2.6 i7 and the i9, the 2.2 i7 performs very similarly to other 8750h based laptops.

I have used the newer keyboards and I'm not such a fan. Maybe you get used to them. I know several people with dead / sticky key issues from the last few years' models... So yeah the keyboard sucks. Sounds like it will be a bit better with the added silicone membranes in the 2018 models.

Touch bar is silly because I don't think I'll use any of it's functions that go beyond the standard keys on offer on non touchbar keyboards - now many tasks are 2-3 taps rather than one. And I'd sorely miss the ESC key. Also you need to look away from the main screen to use it, seems counter intuitive to myself, but I have not lived with one, so maybe I am wrong!

I meant Windows 10 has come a long way from older Windows OSs - or so I keep hearing.
Old 1 week ago
  #85
Gear Maniac
 
Nico@SunnySide's Avatar
 

Hi Noobist,

Yes indeed if you need Thunderbolt, an older MacPro is not an option. I thought you had an older model of Apollo on firewire, which would have been a great match.

And yes, Ableton needs a very high single core performance, as it is not as optimised for multi ore as other DAWs

Seeing as you are heavily invested in the Apple device-biotope, your options are limited.

Two years ago I had a MacBook Pro on loan while doing some maintenance on the MacPro

It was a 2014 Retina 15” Quad Core model, I believe 2.8 GHz with 16GB of ram, 512 SSD

On that model, I could run the sessions I ran on the 12-core older MacPro without problems.
I worked on a session then with +120 audio tracks with 3-6 plugin inserts, 16 fx busses, and about 8 virtual instruments (Diva, Zebra, Stylus, Trillian, Kontakt 5, FXpansion Strobe and others I don’t remember). It was very fast, and although it had only 1 third of the cores and a lower cpu speed the newer i7 chips vs 2010 MP made a great improvement and computer was behaving very stable with overhead.

I also worked on a rather heavy Ableton Live session while creating drum rack instruments and processing multitude of custom sounds for a client’s request. I can confirm those 2014-2015 models were impressive and you could grab one used for 1-1.5K.

From what I have seen in the last years with clients coming in with their MacBook Pros with Logic, Ableton or PT sessions to transfer the newer models until 2017 were not significantly better, even 2017 touchbar 15”. Only this year’s models bring a huge improvement (6-core MBP...what a beast!) imo.

So a 2014-2016 MBP is still a viable option (only the 15” though for Quad Core performance, the 13” are too easily maxed out with Dual Core). Find one with the highest cpu figure, 16GB RAM and a 512/1TB SSD and I think you will be good for at least a couple of years.

Best luck in your search

Nico
Old 1 week ago
  #86
Lives for gear
 
Herr Weiss's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
[...]
It's like crack, it is bad for you, but you can't keep your fingers off it...
Easier to quit crack cocaine than tobacco.


~HW
Old 1 week ago
  #87
Lives for gear
Been a Mac guy since around 1996, but I've been keeping Windows XP and then Windows 7 machines running alongside since about 2008. I haven't bought an Apple computer for about 10 years now- they lost the plot with their hardware. The machines are a poor value for what I need them to do. Sure it would cost me a ton to build a comparable PC, but the fact is for audio production there is no Mac model that has the right configuration, so I would never need to build a comparable model.

My studio computer is a Hackintosh with a real PCIe bus, hot swap hard drive bays, a server processor, tons of memory, great graphics card, and in a rack mount configuration, and it cost a fraction of what one of Apple's bizarre configurations would. Everything I need without any of the crazy bloat, stupid form factor, and jacked up price. Apple lost the plot and I'm running Windows as an insurance policy in case they never find the plot again, which looks more and more likely as the years go by.

My Windows 7 system is completely fine and I would be comfortable migrating. The only downside is that the ProTools GUI is messier under Windows, but if Avid ever gets around to coding a real dual fullscreen GUI, that single problem will disappear.
Old 1 week ago
  #88
Lives for gear
 
norbury brook's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
Been a Mac guy since around 1996, but I've been keeping Windows XP and then Windows 7 machines running alongside since about 2008. I haven't bought an Apple computer for about 10 years now- they lost the plot with their hardware. The machines are a poor value for what I need them to do. Sure it would cost me a ton to build a comparable PC, but the fact is for audio production there is no Mac model that has the right configuration, so I would never need to build a comparable model.

My studio computer is a Hackintosh with a real PCIe bus, hot swap hard drive bays, a server processor, tons of memory, great graphics card, and in a rack mount configuration, and it cost a fraction of what one of Apple's bizarre configurations would. Everything I need without any of the crazy bloat, stupid form factor, and jacked up price. Apple lost the plot and I'm running Windows as an insurance policy in case they never find the plot again, which looks more and more likely as the years go by.

My Windows 7 system is completely fine and I would be comfortable migrating. The only downside is that the ProTools GUI is messier under Windows, but if Avid ever gets around to coding a real dual fullscreen GUI, that single problem will disappear.

/\ this...… /\


I started on this route too but did migrate fully to windows. At the time Cubendo just ran so much better on the windows side and most sampler VSTI's were fully x64 so it was a no brainer.

OSX has caught up since then so I think there isn't as much performance difference between the tow OS's.


If I was really tied to OSX software I'd build a hack no question for the reasons above.

It's even easier now than it was when I was doing it with 10.6 snow Leopard.


The ONLY ting you wont be able to use is the new gen 2 AMD threadrippers.


I'm considering the 16 core/32 thread for a new build :D the latest boards have a TB port too.






MC
Old 1 week ago
  #89
Lives for gear
 

I'm not going to join the Mac v. PC thingy too much but would add that I work with mostly PCs, some Macs and a Linux machine at work. When it comes to Thunderbolt, the best tool for the job is Mac.

Last edited by ozraves; 4 days ago at 05:44 AM.. Reason: I wrongly suggested Mid 2012 Mac Pro which does not have Thunderbolt. I deleted that sentence.
Old 5 days ago
  #90
Quote:
Originally Posted by stratology View Post
A little off topic: last year, Ronan Chris Murphy (King Crimson, Steve Morse,..) ran an informal poll to find out what the preferred sample rate is among professionals.

Quote from the article:
"The result? About 95% of the respondents said they were doing the majority of their work at 44.1 or 48k! Literally only about 5 or 6 of the full time pros were doing work at high sample rates!"


The whole article is a good read - like pretty much everything he writes.
Thanks for this. Great read and interesting result! (Who am I talking to? I know he put me on his ignore list...)


Quote:
Originally Posted by noobist View Post
General consensus seems to be that people suggest taking the machine offline
Which is absolute nonsense IMO.
If you don't need internet connection, fine, but most will wanto tbe online, and it is no problem.

Quote:
here in South Australia
See below.

Quote:
Well I’m pretty deep in the Apple ecosystem…
Until here I would say: buy a Mac and get over with it.

Quote:
So I’d rather stick with Thundebolt.
If this is essential to you, any system which does not come with TB onboard is a no go. Like older Macs. So, I suggest an iMac Pro.

Quote:
I can’t afford an iMac Pro
Uh-oh... back to the south Australia topic. Contact Vin at AAVIM Technology. Focus on what you absolutely need. Let him make a quote.

Quote:
Cons of PC
- My old projects wont open (yeah I’ve used Audio Units all these years…)
Keep your Mac for the old projects. Commit.

Quote:
- Windows 10 updates seem to be an issue for some
Not on Vin's systems.
Quote:
- Tweaking - Need to keep on top of optimisation & virus scans etc.
Nope. Talk to Vin.

As stated, you are the kind of person I would recommend to stick to Mac, but if tech spec wishes and budget don't meet, it is a dead end.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Herr Weiss View Post
Easier to quit crack cocaine than tobacco.
~HW
As I never used either one of them, I wouldn't know. I do know that the hard part about tobacco is the mental addiction: within 10 days, the body is over the nicotine addiction. But the mental reward system is messed up, as soon as you feel uncomfortable, you think a cigarette will make things better. That is the hard part. Once this is identified and accepted, the path to glory is open, but many never recognize this.

I digress...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ozraves View Post
I'm not going to join the Mac v. PC thingy too much
I don't see this as a mac vs pc topic. OP is stuck between a rock and a hard place, it is obvious that pros and cons are put on the table, for some it is hard to keep personal preferences separated from facts, which isn't easier as everyone has different experiences with either platform.
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